Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[JDG]

If you’re referring to the New Home Warrenty program, it generally covers the typical new home purchase built by a qualified builder. As Shermans had already purchased the lot and their home was built to spec requiring various specialized trades, it probably wasn’t built by just one developer.

It also covers infill houses by private contractors.

We have one nearby thats been covered for years of poor workmanship.

ETA: Ones' own house insurance will cover defective workmanship if you can prove it was the contractors fault. Just have an engineer watch it being taken apart and they know who is at fault. Then, the insurance sues the contractor to reclaim the monies.

 

[MistyWaters]

Can you please explain how Barry hung himself so neatly and in exactly the same position as Honey AFTER he had strangled himself??

How did he keep his legs out straight, same as hers after he had died??

Edit to add: I am not being snarky here, its a serious question.

And if Andreww replies, I’d also like to understsnd what’s with the evidence of wrist bindings on both? And how’s a rage killing happen when the cause of death was due to ligature neck compression? Binding a victim, then using a belt to tie the person to a pool railing, but then what? Death is not achieved without the weight of the victim causing pressure on the neck from the belt. And what of the Winter coat with the sleeves pulled down? Sounds far more methodical and premeditated to me, not a typical scenario associated with sudden rage whatsoever.

 

[MistyWaters]

It also covers infill houses by private contractors.

We have one nearby thats been covered for years of poor workmanship.

ETA: Ones' own house insurance will cover defective workmanship if you can prove it was the contractors fault. Just have an engineer watch it being taken apart and they know who is at fault. Then, the insurance sues the contractor to reclaim the monies.

You could be right. In my experience a contractor must be preapproved by the program in order to be covered. Not all are because in order to be included in the program, it requires bonding and often a deposit. In the 90s it was far less common than it is today although it did become a requirement in order to obtain mortgage financing.

As for homeowners insurance, in my realm of experience, poor workmanship must lead to actual damage before a claim can be filed. One of the issues iirc was poor design of air conditioning so not all areas of the home were cooled properly. That’s more of a satisfaction issue that I don’t think is covered by home insurance.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The house Honey and Barry Sherman would have built | The Star
A neighbour in Florida, Mikhail Pikover, told the Star that the couple was very quiet and nice, but only came to their place there twice a year. The Shermans weren’t conversation starters, he said, and they liked to keep to themselves.

He said the pair didn’t flaunt their wealth, and seemed to live a simple life. Pikover said he spoke to Honey shortly before she died — an uncomplicated conversation about how the renovation of their unit was finally finished. She told him to have a nice day, Pikover said, and that she was going back to Canada.
Maybe a possibility unknowingly to have met their murderers in Florida?

 

[andreww]

And if Andreww replies, I’d also like to understsnd what’s with the evidence of wrist bindings on both? And how’s a rage killing happen when the cause of death was due to ligature neck compression? Binding a victim, then using a belt to tie the person to a pool railing, but then what? Death is not achieved without the weight of the victim causing pressure on the neck from the belt. And what of the Winter coat with the sleeves pulled down? Sounds far more methodical and premeditated to me, not a typical scenario associated with sudden rage whatsoever.

Not really sure what the original question was about? The pool railing was about four feet high, so Barry, on his knees, would tie the belt around his neck to the railing, then kick his legs straight forward. As his butt wouldn't hit the ground, this would be the only way to put his full weight on the noose. Plenty of people hang themselves from low objects like closet hanger rails or doorknobs.

As for the ligature neck compression, again Im not totally sure what the question is? My guess is that Barry strangled Honey with something, possibly his belt, then set up the scene by the pool. Another possible scenario, given that Honey had other injuries and was apparently found in a pool of blood, would be that she was beaten to unconsciousness, then dragged down and hung by the pool. Its impossible to even speculate without seeing the full autopsy and crime scene evidence though.

And lastly, the jackets. Not sure when it came out that they were winter coats, I seem to recall that they were light jackets. But whatever, Barry might have realized that as he was trying to hang himself, there was a tendency to reach up and grab the railing, releasing the tension on the belt. The jacket was likely a means to restrict his arms from interfering with the deed. As he needed one, he had to apply the same to Honey. Or, it may simply been part of the staging meant to confuse.

 

[JDG]

Andreww, the questions are in post 1363 on the previous page. My post.

they are in regard to how he could hang himself, position himself just so, AFTER strangling himself.

You can read them for yourself. Funny that with them being so succinct, you missed or misunderstood them.

 

[JDG]

The winter coats, it was December and snowy, were the same coats they had on earlier in the day. Pretty difficult to manoeuvre ones' own strangulation, hanging and staging whilst wearing winter outerwear methinks.

 

[andreww]

Andreww, the questions are in post 1363 on the previous page. My post.

they are in regard to how he could hang himself, position himself just so, AFTER strangling himself.

You can read them for yourself. Funny that with them being so succinct, you missed or misunderstood them.

1) Barry, on his knees, fastens the belt around his neck and railing.
2) Puts on jacket
3) Kicks feet forward to put weight on the noose

Not sure what you find complicated about that?

 

[andreww]

The winter coats, it was December and snowy, were the same coats they had on earlier in the day. Pretty difficult to manoeuvre ones' own strangulation, hanging and staging whilst wearing winter outerwear methinks.

Just checked and the original reports stated they were wearing jackets not coats. As they were in a meeting earlier, could possibly be business jackets. I have never seen a report that stated they were wearing winter coats.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not really sure what the original question was about? The pool railing was about four feet high, so Barry, on his knees, would tie the belt around his neck to the railing, then kick his legs straight forward. As his butt wouldn't hit the ground, this would be the only way to put his full weight on the noose. Plenty of people hang themselves from low objects like closet hanger rails or doorknobs.

As for the ligature neck compression, again Im not totally sure what the question is? My guess is that Barry strangled Honey with something, possibly his belt, then set up the scene by the pool. Another possible scenario, given that Honey had other injuries and was apparently found in a pool of blood, would be that she was beaten to unconsciousness, then dragged down and hung by the pool. Its impossible to even speculate without seeing the full autopsy and crime scene evidence though.

And lastly, the jackets. Not sure when it came out that they were winter coats, I seem to recall that they were light jackets. But whatever, Barry might have realized that as he was trying to hang himself, there was a tendency to reach up and grab the railing, releasing the tension on the belt. The jacket was likely a means to restrict his arms from interfering with the deed. As he needed one, he had to apply the same to Honey. Or, it may simply been part of the staging meant to confuse.

That’s a bit of a leap to support a theory considering we don’t know whether the bodies were actually suspended or not. From information reported, we don’t know they were. Suicides such as Robin Williams can be achieved simply by sitting and leaning forward, sometimes also referred to as the choking game, without arm restriction.

I’ve also provided links in the past that indicate during the autopsy process, medical examination of internal neck injuries and bruising reveal a difference between suicide and homicidal death, due to the amount of pressure applied to the ligature and the position of it. That’s also a reason it’d be impossible for LE to determine whether murder or suicide occurred, merely by visual observation.

That the Homicide Team took charge of the investigation immediately upon the completion of the autopsies indicates early signs of any of those variances were present. But it’s not surprising that a perp might think victims can be manually strangled, then staged to make it appear a suicide occurred and nobody would ever be able to tell anything different but apparently that’s just not so.

Medical examination could’ve determined the type of neck injuries between the two were different, indicating M/S. But as the determination was double homicide, that points toward the actual type of neck injuries were the same for both.

This is also why you’d must include the Coroner and forensic pathologists in your conspiracy. They are not employees of TPS. Their work is performed under the Office of the Chief Coroner, Ontario.

 

[MistyWaters]

Just checked and the original reports stated they were wearing jackets not coats. As they were in a meeting earlier, could possibly be business jackets. I have never seen a report that stated they were wearing winter coats.

“Winter coats”
Private investigators say Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered: reports - CityNews Toronto

 

[JDG]

1) Barry, on his knees, fastens the belt around his neck and railing.
2) Puts on jacket
3) Kicks feet forward to put weight on the noose

Not sure what you find complicated about that?

You make it sound very easy for an elderly man with a bad back to 'kicks feet forward' while kneeling on them in order to fasten the belt to the railing.

Try it. Without tying your throat of course......kicking your knees forward from a kneeling position, while in a winter coat and wearing boots. (or even without)
If you are a normal person, of normal strength and fitness, its impossible to kick legs out front whilst kneeling on them.

It has been stated that the belts did NOT cause the ligature strangulation.
They were strangled BEFORE being hung onto the railing.
THAT was my main point.....so it IS complicated. He was dead already.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * *

January 19 Toronto Star Kevin Donovan
.....they were wearing winter coats and boots......also many other MSM media outlets report the same. Seems the coats were pulled back, as if to constrain the arms.
* * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * *

IF you believe that they died from the belts around their necks, well that's been disproven by the coroners office.

But, if you were correct that they died from the belts, how would you explain Barry and Honey being in the exact same position after death and posturing.

As a body is asphyxiated, the body struggles fiercely as it tries to get more oxygen to the major organs. I don't want to get too graphic here but its not a 'quiet' death.

So, again, how did Barry end up in the same position (so neatly aligned) with Honey??

 

[andreww]

You make it sound very easy for an elderly man with a bad back to 'kicks feet forward' while kneeling on them in order to fasten the belt to the railing.

Try it. Without tying your throat of course......kicking your knees forward from a kneeling position, while in a winter coat and wearing boots. (or even without)
If you are a normal person, of normal strength and fitness, its impossible to kick legs out front whilst kneeling on them.

It has been stated that the belts did NOT cause the ligature strangulation.
They were strangled BEFORE being hung onto the railing.
THAT was my main point.....so it IS complicated. He was dead already.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * *

January 19 Toronto Star Kevin Donovan
.....they were wearing winter coats and boots......also many other MSM media outlets report the same. Seems the coats were pulled back, as if to constrain the arms.
* * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * *

IF you believe that they died from the belts around their necks, well that's been disproven by the coroners office.

But, if you were correct that they died from the belts, how would you explain Barry and Honey being in the exact same position after death and posturing.

As a body is asphyxiated, the body struggles fiercely as it tries to get more oxygen to the major organs. I don't want to get too graphic here but its not a 'quiet' death.

So, again, how did Barry end up in the same position (so neatly aligned) with Honey??

LOL, has it been proven by the coroners office that they didn't die from the belts? Because the last I heard the coroner has said absolutely nothing about this case. So you are getting your information straight from the people hired specifically to prove it wasn't M/S. Not exactly what I'd call a trustable source.

 

[andreww]

Just wondering, if both their hands were tied with zip ties and they were strangled prior too hanging, why their arms would need to be restrained with coats? Why remove the zip ties? This would be the most bizarre murder since Jonbenet Ramsey, and we are still waiting for them to catch that intruder.

 

[JDG]

LOL, has it been proven by the coroners office that they didn't die from the belts? Because the last I heard the coroner has said absolutely nothing about this case. So you are getting your information straight from the people hired specifically to prove it wasn't M/S. Not exactly what I'd call a trustable source.

Well, they did actually, when they determined COD and MOD.

Then, it was reported by the Lead Detective as that is her job.

I guess there is no answer to the rest of it cause its impossible.

 

[MistyWaters]

LOL, has it been proven by the coroners office that they didn't die from the belts? Because the last I heard the coroner has said absolutely nothing about this case. So you are getting your information straight from the people hired specifically to prove it wasn't M/S. Not exactly what I'd call a trustable source.

Who is your “trustable source” involved in conducting the autopsies, who noted in relation to the body positioning, the dimensions of the belts and the type of neck injuries that a M/S occurred?

 

[MistyWaters]

Just wondering, if both their hands were tied with zip ties and they were strangled prior too hanging, why their arms would need to be restrained with coats? Why remove the zip ties? This would be the most bizarre murder since Jonbenet Ramsey, and we are still waiting for them to catch that intruder.

It would seem highly likely to me some sort of wrist ties were used to restrain the victims in order to prevent them from physically defending themselves. A staged suicide with the victims wrists still tied would obviously appear a homicide, would it not? That’s a reason why the wrist ties would’ve been removed, after death occurred.

ETA. JBR was murdered in 1996. Medical science has advanced light years in the past 20+ years.

 

[MistyWaters]

Double post.

 

[andreww]

Who is your “trustable source” involved in conducting the autopsies, who noted in relation to the body positioning, the dimensions of the belts and the type of neck injuries that a M/S occurred?

To tell you the truth, there is not trusted source. When the police start taking cues from outside parties who have a vested interest in having the decision go in their favour, and when the police chief starts taking meetings with the mayor on behalf of the family, my trust level goes out the window. This case was doomed from the start, and as I've said before, we'll likely never hear another word about it.

 

[andreww]

It would seem highly likely to me some sort of wrist ties were used to restrain the victims in order to prevent them from physically defending themselves. A staged suicide with the victims wrists still tied would obviously appear a homicide, would it not? That’s a reason why the wrist ties would’ve been removed, after death occurred.

Okay, you're good up until that point, but why add the coats as a restraint? How does that scream suicide? And if your goal is to make it appear to be a suicide, why beat Honey to the point of bleeding? Your argument makes no sense.