Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

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Would anything change in our understanding of these peculiar deaths and apparent staging of the scene if, for example at gunpoint, BS was forced to murder HS?
imo, speculation.

Not for me. When people are faced with imminent danger, when they’re held hostage by violent, dangerous criminals who pose a serious threat to both of their lives I think it’s be extremely unlikely for anyone to cooperate by murdering their spouse even at gunpoint. In that situation I’m sure there’s always faint hope by the victims that they’ll be allowed to go free. Death of one is virtually a guarantee of death to the other. Regardless, even in a hypothetical situation such as that, the perpetrator still “caused” the homicide.
 
Strangulation using a ligature does not meet the definition of a sudden rage killing, particularly if there’s forensic evidence of wrist bindings on each of the bodies.

We haven't seen the autopsy, but would a belt qualify a ligature? Scarf? My problem is that the autopsy was done very early in the investigation, if there had been obvious signs that BOTH were strangled with something very different than a belt, and that BOTH had obviously had their wrists bound, then why did they seemingly continue to investigate this as a M/S for about a month? This information would make it plainly clear that something quite different had happened, and LE should have announced it as a double murder within days. I speculate that the autopsy results aren't as definitive as you might think and that the coroner bought in to what Greenspan's pathologist was selling him.
 
If their wrists were tied, they not only wouldnt be able to fight back but they would be tugging away at the ligature. Both activities could/would leave to DNA being left everywhere.

IIRC, they were not strangled with the belts but something else.

Andreww, the police are never obligated to announce anything to the public, as you know, until they are ready.

I imagine they had a good idea after the autopsies were completed, before the services.

Having said that, autopsy results are not complete for about 6 weeks due to lab work etc.

Is it possible they were covering ALL bases while awaiting the final reports??

Autopsies are pretty definitive most of the time. Of course, there are exceptions.
 
BBM, not sure what you mean by that.

The reason there was a need to set up the double suicide staging was to conceal what Barry had done. Barry, likely angry about the move, argues with Honey and ends up killing her in a rage. Not wanting to face the allegations and inevitable headlines, he decides to end his own life, staging it to look like a double suicide. As Honey has already been strangled, he is locked in to going that route. Thus, he stages the act in the pool room.

But Barry is a smart guy and knows a bloodied Honey will not look like a double suicide. In fact, you’ve spent months telling us the cops knew it was murder suicide from the get-go. Do you really think he thought this would fool anybody? Staging bodies by the pool with coats pulled back just makes the whole thing more suspicious.
 
belts are not usually the first choice of weapons for a planned double murder.They can and have been used in suicides because almost every house has a belt or two,but very few have weapons.The belts indicate to me that this was an impulsive act and not planned.
 
belts are not usually the first choice of weapons for a planned double murder.They can and have been used in suicides because almost every house has a belt or two,but very few have weapons.The belts indicate to me that this was an impulsive act and not planned.
I think the belts suited the intention of making the murders look like suicides.
 
Because that was the easiest place for Barry to set it up. As he'd likely already killed Honey by strangling her, his plan to stage this as a double suicide necessitated him strangling himself. Most would use a closet or a door knob to do this, but he needed somewhere that two people could conceivably do this. The pool railing was the perfect height and and was spacious enough for two.

On the other side of the equation, what possible reasoning is there fo a double murderer to stage this as a suicide? This imaginary criminal was stealth enough to be in the house for hours, kill two people, move them both to a different part of the house, string them up and stage a suicide scene without leaving a trace that he was even there. Why not just shoot them both in the head and walk out the door? What possible good does staging a double suicide do, besides providing the opportunity to slip up and leave a clue that might reveal his identity?

Staged as m/s to distract the police and give time. Which clearly worked.

Why hang there? Why not accidental drowning? Pills?

M/s just makes no sense in this. The family doesn't agree. The crime scene from what little we know doesn't agree.

The TPS are not capable. This is a fact. They are overworked, under staffed and have too much corruption on the inside. The fact there are tips flying in now tells that people out there do have information, ideas that have not been looked into yet.

Watch enough crime shows and this type of thing happens all the time. The police in charge don't do a good enough job and things go missed for years and sometimes decades. A new person comes in and gets the case solved.

I think this case has some movement and you will see more details emerge in the next few months. JMO
 
One thing I don't understand is why not just dump the bodies in the pool? That would help get rid of any of the killers DNA evidence that was on the bodies. I can only assume either or both of:
1) the killer(s) were professional, and were careful to not leave any or much DNA evidence on the bodies; and/or
2) the hanging of the bodies from the railing was a clear message, and had/has specific significance or meaning to someone close to the Shermans
 
One thing I don't understand is why not just dump the bodies in the pool? That would help get rid of any of the killers DNA evidence that was on the bodies. I can only assume either or both of:
1) the killer(s) were professional, and were careful to not leave any or much DNA evidence on the bodies; and/or
2) the hanging of the bodies from the railing was a clear message, and had/has specific significance or meaning to someone close to the Shermans
How do you know no DNA was left?
 
Staged as m/s to distract the police and give time. Which clearly worked.

Why hang there? Why not accidental drowning? Pills?

M/s just makes no sense in this. The family doesn't agree. The crime scene from what little we know doesn't agree.

The TPS are not capable. This is a fact. They are overworked, under staffed and have too much corruption on the inside. The fact there are tips flying in now tells that people out there do have information, ideas that have not been looked into yet.

Watch enough crime shows and this type of thing happens all the time. The police in charge don't do a good enough job and things go missed for years and sometimes decades. A new person comes in and gets the case solved.

I think this case has some movement and you will see more details emerge in the next few months. JMO
TPS are not over worked and under staffed. It’s just about the highest paid police force in NOrth America. The problem is they have highly paid personnel doing jobs that should be done by someone earning half the salary and lots of other organizational problems.

Despite their high salaries, they’ve blown a lot of cases lately. Wayne Millard, Tess Richer, Gay Village serial killer. None of this was due to under resourcing. It was due to incompetence.

But the difference between these cases and the Sherman case is that from day one they knew all eyes were on them in the Sherman case. I’m not at all convinced they blew it although it’s possible they did. Way too many people are buying into the Greenspan spin.

The judge in charge of search warrants has said their investigation is good. That’s worth something IMO.

I lean toward thinking we may see an arrest fairly soon. OTOH I’m prepared to be completely wrong.
 
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One thing I don't understand is why not just dump the bodies in the pool? That would help get rid of any of the killers DNA evidence that was on the bodies. I can only assume either or both of:
1) the killer(s) were professional, and were careful to not leave any or much DNA evidence on the bodies; and/or
2) the hanging of the bodies from the railing was a clear message, and had/has specific significance or meaning to someone close to the Shermans
Not professionals. This isn’t how pros kill people.
 
We haven't seen the autopsy, but would a belt qualify a ligature? Scarf? My problem is that the autopsy was done very early in the investigation, if there had been obvious signs that BOTH were strangled with something very different than a belt, and that BOTH had obviously had their wrists bound, then why did they seemingly continue to investigate this as a M/S for about a month? This information would make it plainly clear that something quite different had happened, and LE should have announced it as a double murder within days. I speculate that the autopsy results aren't as definitive as you might think and that the coroner bought in to what Greenspan's pathologist was selling him.

I agree we are in the dark, not knowing the details of the neck injuries (which can help determine suicide vs murder) or the rulings on the MOD from the first autopsies. The first pathologist DID see indications that it might be a double murder. We don't know what his final report ruled as MOD, which was signed off by the chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen. We only know that Pollanem didn't rule the deaths as double murders. I suspect that the MOD was ruled as "undetermined". That could be enough ammo for the TPS to pursue the M/S theory, which they seemed to prematurely determine from the first few hours at the crime scene. If the MOD was ruled M/S, then the TPS were following that direction, and can't be blamed for how the investigation continued. But a M/M ruling doesn't jive with the cooperation shown later between the pathologists.

The first pathologist (Dr.Pickup) attended the second autopsies, and provided the "hired" pathologist (Dr. Chiasson) with crime scene photos. This certainly suggests that he wanted to be cooperative, and was genuinely interested in getting a second opinion from an experienced, highly regarded forensic pathologist. Chiasson has a stellar reputation in forensic pathology (former Ontario Chief of Pathology). Let's accept that as fact before you dismiss him as an inept old timer (he is still working) and that he sacrificed his life long career and reputation for $$$. Apparently the forensic experts (partnered with TPS) agreed with his findings and TPS accepted (had to) the forensic science.

Not only did TPS accept a M/M autopsy ruling, their six week investigation determined that the Sherman's were "targeted" for murder. That is a definitive statement that didn't have to be made public, and denotes that it is based on hard evidence. Do we believe that?

The only thing I truly trust is that the various and qualified forensic experts (not even including Chiasson) working on behalf of the LE directive have agreed that the Shermans were both murdered. We don't know the scientific reasons for their ruling, but this is the ultimate proof of M/M imo. I don't think that Dr. Chiasson can be bought and I think that it is beyond cynical to think the other forensic scientists can be bought.




Sources say Pickup saw indications that it might be a case of double murder. However, Pickup did not make that ruling. Neither Pickup or his boss, chief forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Pollanen, would discuss the case with the Star, citing provincial privacy rules.
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
 
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Saunders makes this interesting statement during the post-Greenspan press conference: "I have to be cognizant that the suspects are suspects, no doubt are watching this right now. I know that for a fact. And so I want to be careful to not present any evidence to help that particular person or individuals that are responsible." Sounds like TPS might actually have suspects. And I don't think they've ever said that before.

Here's where the statement is made (around 8:59):
 
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Saunders makes this interesting statement during the post-Greenspan press conference: "I have to be cognizant that the suspects are suspects, no doubt are watching this right now. I know that for a fact. And so I want to be careful to not present any evidence to help that particular person or individuals that are responsible." Sounds like TPS might actually have suspects. And I don't think they've ever said that before.

Here's where the statement is made (around 8:59):
Welcome to Ws PostTruth, thanks for the link!
 
Um. Wrong. If the information is not factual they can be sued and face a world of pain.

Also there is no journalistic shield law in Canada so they can in some cases be compelled to reveal sources or sent to jail.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4036641
Of course there are contradictions. And if you go to court and a trial there will Still be contradictions. That’s how it works. This isn’t a TV show. Real life is full of contradictions.

Anon sources that you want silenced, based on your comments, are the source of almost all the knowledge about the crime scene that we have.

You spend a lot of time splitting hairs when it’s the big picture that’s important.

Why were Barry and Honey Sherman hanging by the pool?
Hello Abro. I see on your profile that you are a journalist but your links seem to be broken. Perhaps it is my computer acting up.
Are you going to write a book about this case as well?
 
Except for the fact no one believes it was double suicide.
Which goes back to my point that the killer's plan to make this appear to be double suicide was thrown when Honey was injured.

I think "suicide" was chosen as a method of murder (albeit thwarted) because the murderer was a very obvious suspect in a murder investigation. I discount business adversaries because Honey was targeted too and, I believe, this was someone with a personal hatred for them both.
 
We actually don’t know how long they thought it was murder suicide. That they changed their minds after talking to the second pathologist is the Greenspan/Donovan spin.

Six weeks is a long time to be at a crime scene that you believe is an obvious murder suicide.
Well production orders were being filed listing ONLY Honey Sherman as a victim. Even Greenspan mentioned that.
 
Which goes back to my point that the killer's plan to make this appear to be double suicide was thrown when Honey was injured.

I think "suicide" was chosen as a method of murder (albeit thwarted) because the murderer was a very obvious suspect in a murder investigation. I discount business adversaries because Honey was targeted too and, I believe, this was someone with a personal hatred for them both.
Sorry but I find your explanation is full of holes. After Honey was beaten it was never going to look like double suicide. “The plan” was blown. Why would the killer think, gee my suicide plan failed with HOney, but let me give it a second shot with Barry. I’ll stage it as a murder suicide.

Did the inexperienced killer lie in wait for Barry, then pounce and strangle him without causing other injuries?

And did “the plan” involve using Barry’s belts?
 
Except it’s not going to appear as suicide when the wife’s beaten and bloody so there’s that. You didn’t fool anyone by hoisting her body onto a poolside railing. See the problem?
Exactly. If this was a murder, what is the point of the staging? Has there ever been a case remotely similar? Wouldn't it have been easier to shoot them both at close range and simply put the gun in Barry's hand? If the plan was always to stage a suicide, why beat Honey so badly that it causes blood to pool up under her?

You guys dismiss the M/S idea, primarily due to the opinion of one man (being paid by the family), yet you ignore the idiocy of this as a murder scene.
 
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