CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered @ Home - Toronto #20

[WINDSOR]

Besides artificial insemination and surrogacy, there is simple life story. Are women always sure of their children's paternity? Are kids? So...I wouldn't be surprised if the woman herself doesn't fully know if she is Barry's daughter, and might be trying to find out. JMO.

Lastly, we all are slightly darwinian especially when young, but "preservation of genetic material" is far from "rising children". A home is not a test tube in liquid nitrogen. To add to it, "talent" is not transmitted that simply. In fact, what we think of as "good" genes, for the nature is viewed as "strikingly outside the medium", and the wide medium is stability, so what the nature does is averaging. Haven't you observed it, talented parents having smart children, but very few outsmart or overachieve the parents? The same is true for outstanding athletes, and everyone else. (It is good for the mankind because both top 2% and bottom 2% are averaged out, but not the same as Barry planned, I'm sure).

"talented parents having smart children, but very few outsmart or overachieve the parents? The same is true for outstanding athletes, and everyone else."

Not necessarily so, Patrick Mahomes, Peyton and Eli Manning, Ken Griffey Jr., Richard Petty are just a few.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

What happened at Jonathon’s cottage that made Alex think he was behind the murders? Up to that point they had always been close. He was even close to her husband.

KD said Alex went to the police with the information or whatever it was that caused her concern. That was approximately one year after the murders and the Greenspan team was still working on the case for the family, but KD didn’t mention that Alex went to them.

Before the Greenspan team disbanded, Alex hired her own lawyer in order to have it shut down and Jonathon opposed her.

When it dissolved, the police asked the public to resubmit any tips they may have given to the Greenspan team, because the ones they received from them were incomplete. How could that possibly have happened when the team had former top TPS homicide investigators taking and investigating the tips?

‘“Another revelation in Yim’s affidavit relates to the private investigation led by criminal defence lawyer Brian Greenspan and private detective Tom Klatt. According to Yim, some of the information Greenspan and Klatt’s team have provided is short on details.

“Some of the tips (provided by Greenspan’s team) appear to be incomplete or missing and required further follow up with the private investigators,” Yim says in his affidavit. “It is also my understanding that the private investigators will be providing the Toronto Police Service with further disclosure in the near future. The information received from the private investigators will be reviewed in conjunction with the evidence that the Toronto Police Service has collected in this investigation thus far.”’

Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe receives ‘significant contribution’ from Toronto Police intelligence squad, court records reveal

The information was disclosed in an affidavit submitted by Det. Dennis Yim, the only detective working full-time on the case, in an attempt to keep search warrant material sealed.

www.thestar.com

“Idsinga said police and the Sherman family were on the same page going forward. The family’s $10 million reward remains available to anyone with key information, but Idsinga wants the public to contact his team or CrimeStoppers if they have a tip. He invited anyone who provided one of 343 tips to the now defunct Sherman private eye team to “resubmit” to police.”

How the private investigation by the family of Barry and Honey Sherman began and ended

How did the Sherman children come to launch their own investigation the day after their parents’ strangled bodies were discovered?

www.thestar.com

ETA: this is just my interpretation of what the police said about the Greenspan tips, and I don’t know if Alex did go to the Greenspan team. KD only mentioned that she went to the police. I don’t fully understand that because Greenspan said part of his role was to act as a liaison between the Sherman family and the police.

 

[FPoulet]

What happened at Jonathon’s cottage that made Alex think he was behind the murders? Up to that point they had always been close. He was even close to her husband.

KD said Alex went to the police with the information or whatever it was that caused her concern. That was approximately one year after the murders and the Greenspan team was still working on the case for the family, but KD didn’t mention that Alex went to them.

Before the Greenspan team disbanded, Alex hired her own lawyer in order to have it shut down and Jonathon opposed her.

When it dissolved, the police asked the public to resubmit any tips they may have given to the Greenspan team, because the ones they received from them were incomplete. How could that possibly have happened when the team had former top TPS homicide investigators taking and investigating the tips?

‘“Another revelation in Yim’s affidavit relates to the private investigation led by criminal defence lawyer Brian Greenspan and private detective Tom Klatt. According to Yim, some of the information Greenspan and Klatt’s team have provided is short on details.

“Some of the tips (provided by Greenspan’s team) appear to be incomplete or missing and required further follow up with the private investigators,” Yim says in his affidavit. “It is also my understanding that the private investigators will be providing the Toronto Police Service with further disclosure in the near future. The information received from the private investigators will be reviewed in conjunction with the evidence that the Toronto Police Service has collected in this investigation thus far.”’

Barry and Honey Sherman murder probe receives ‘significant contribution’ from Toronto Police intelligence squad, court records reveal

The information was disclosed in an affidavit submitted by Det. Dennis Yim, the only detective working full-time on the case, in an attempt to keep search warrant material sealed.

www.thestar.com

“Idsinga said police and the Sherman family were on the same page going forward. The family’s $10 million reward remains available to anyone with key information, but Idsinga wants the public to contact his team or CrimeStoppers if they have a tip. He invited anyone who provided one of 343 tips to the now defunct Sherman private eye team to “resubmit” to police.”

How the private investigation by the family of Barry and Honey Sherman began and ended

How did the Sherman children come to launch their own investigation the day after their parents’ strangled bodies were discovered?

www.thestar.com

ETA: this is just my interpretation of what the police said about the Greenspan tips, and I don’t know if Alex did go to the Greenspan team. KD only mentioned that she went to the police. I don’t fully understand that because Greenspan said part of his role was to act as a liaison between the Sherman family and the police.

Re: “When it dissolved, the police asked the public to resubmit any tips they may have given to the Greenspan team, because the ones they received from them were incomplete. How could that possibly have happened when the team had former top TPS homicide investigators taking and investigating the tips?”

Query whether there was any obligation for Greenspan‘s team to communicate everything to police. The reality is that Greenspan is a criminal defence lawyer. What would happen if he became aware of information to indicate that one or more of his clients were potentially implicated in the crime? <modsnip: Incorrect information and no link to substantiate legal information stated as fact>

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Re: “When it dissolved, the police asked the public to resubmit any tips they may have given to the Greenspan team, because the ones they received from them were incomplete. How could that possibly have happened when the team had former top TPS homicide investigators taking and investigating the tips?”

Query whether there was any obligation for Greenspan‘s team to communicate everything to police. The reality is that Greenspan is a criminal defence lawyer. What would happen if he became aware of information to indicate that one or more of his clients were potentially implicated in the crime? <modsnip: Incorrect information and no link to substantiate legal information stated as fact>

If Alex bypassed Greenspan and went directly to the police, what you suggested would explain it, imo. It could fall under privileged information (from what little I understand) because he represented all the heirs—imo, and I know next to nothing about the topic.

I did a search based on what you wrote and it turns out the Greenspan team had to be forced to turn over what they saw as evidence to the police.

Law society of Ontario rules:

Rule 5.1-2A of the Rules of Professional Conduct and rule 4.01(5.2) of the Paralegal Rules of Conduct provide that lawyers and paralegals must not counsel or participate in the concealment, destruction, or alteration of incriminating physical evidence or otherwise act so as to obstruct or attempt to obstruct the course of justice.

Incriminating physical evidence - Lawyer | Law Society of Ontario

Client Service and Communication File Management Financial Management Technology Closing Down Your Practice

lso.ca

November, 2018 article:

“In May, after several attempts, the private detectives arranged a meeting with Toronto Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes and Det. Brandon Price. At that meeting, according to sources, the private team turned over analysis and photographs related to 25 palmprints and fingerprints found on surfaces in the home, which the private team believes police missed.

At the meeting, the private team, led by former Toronto homicide detective Tom Klatt, told the police about other items they had, including the vacuum bag and the earring. Other items were mentioned, but the Star could not determine what they were.

Shortly after, Toronto police retained Toronto criminal attorney Scott Hutchison, law partner of high-profile lawyer Marie Henein. Hutchison, sources say, was to advise police on a protocol for the passing on potential evidence.

No agreement was reached after a series of emails and calls between Hutchison and the private team throughout the summer and early fall, say sources close to the private investigation. In his press conference remarks, Greenspan said he was seeking a way to have the private team work with police going forward and still “protect the integrity of the police investigation.”

On Oct. 11, Hutchison wrote to Greenspan and warned him that if he did not turn over everything his team had, police would go before a judge to seek a production order, angering Greenspan, sources say.”

Sherman family investigators hand over earring and other evidence collected at murdered billionaires’ home to Toronto police

The handover comes several weeks after police warned the Sherman family’s lawyer they would seek a judicial warrant if potential evidence was not immediately handed over, sources close to the case have told the Star.

www.thestar.com

——-
Then around December, 2018, Alex discovered something that made her go to the police. (Jack Kay was fired during that month, but I don’t know if it’s connected.)

I apologize for blowing up the thread and everyone’s notifications. I’m trying to sift through KD’s work and add to the timeline and I’m finding patterns that I’m unsure of.

 

[Sillybilly]

For those interested in whether the defence has a duty to disclose, it is not that cut and dried and this is just a starting point if anyone is interested in researching it further.

Defence lawyers are also officers of the court with a duty to ensure that the administration of justice is not brought into ill repute. While duty of the defence to disclose is not legislated, it is an administrative obligation with its own set of procedural rules.

The following is an example from British Columbia

from: Chapter 5 – Relationship to the Administration of Justice | The Law Society of British Columbia

[3.1] Unless a lawyer’s handling of incriminating physical evidence is otherwise prescribed by law, the options available to a lawyer who has taken possession of such evidence include, as soon as reasonably possible:

(a) delivering the evidence to law enforcement authorities or the prosecution, either directly or anonymously;

(b) delivering the evidence to the tribunal in the relevant proceeding, which may also include seeking the direction of the tribunal to facilitate access by the prosecution or defence for testing or examination;

(c) disclosing the existence of the evidence to the prosecution and, if necessary, preparing to argue before a tribunal the appropriate uses, disposition or admissibility of it; or

(d) returning the evidence to its source, provided doing so will not cause the evidence to be concealed, destroyed or altered.

[4] A lawyer should balance the duty of loyalty and confidentiality owed to the client with the duties owed to the administration of justice. When a lawyer discloses or delivers incriminating physical evidence to law enforcement authorities or the prosecution, the lawyer has a duty to protect client confidentiality, including the client’s identity, and to preserve solicitor-client privilege. This may be accomplished by the lawyer retaining independent counsel, who is not informed of the identity of the client and who is instructed not to disclose the identity of the instructing lawyer, to disclose or deliver the evidence.

[5] A lawyer has no obligation to assist the authorities in gathering physical evidence of crime but cannot act or advise anyone to hinder an investigation or a prosecution. The lawyer’s advice to a client that the client has the right to refuse to divulge the location of physical evidence does not constitute hindering an investigation. A lawyer who becomes aware of the existence of incriminating physical evidence or declines to take possession of it must not counsel or participate in its concealment, destruction or alteration.

from: An old article (2002) from the Alberta Law Review

Physical exhibits in the hands of defence counsel must also be surrendered. This is not an obligation of the accused, but a professional responsibility of counsel for the accused. The Alberta rules of professional conduct, for example, state: "A lawyer must not counsel or participate in the concealment of property having potential evidentiary value in a criminal proceeding." 6 The commentary accompanying this rule specifies that counsel is obliged to tum over to the authorities any criminal evidence that comes into their possession.


from The Public Prosecution Service of Canada

2.5 Principles of Disclosure - PPSC

• Department of Justice
• Electronic Communications

1. ppsc-sppc.gc.ca > 2.5 Principles of Disclosure

Jul 23, 2015 - and decide whether, in the circumstances, an adjournment, stay of proceedings or other remedy is required or appropriate. The investigative agency, although operating independently of the prosecution, has a duty to disclose to Crown counsel, without prompting, all relevant information uncovered during the investigation of a crime, including information which assists the accused: Martin Committee Report, supra note 10 at 167. See also R v T (L.A.), (1993) 84 CCC (3d) 90 (Ont CA) at 94; R v V (W.J.), (1992) 72 CCC (3d) 97 (Nfld CA) at 109; R v McNeil 2009 SCC 3 [McNeil].

As for an investigative agency, the above is not entirely clear what constitutes "investigative agency, although operating independently of the prosecution, has a duty to disclose to Crown counsel ..." as to whether the investigative agency is one hired by the defence or by the prosecution.

Thinking back to the Bernardo trial in Ontario where PB's lawyer came into possession of the tapes. Although the lawyer KM was ultimately found not guilty, he was charged with obstruction of justice.

from: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/court-finds-bernardo-lawyer-not-guilty-1.252668

The case raised the larger legal issue of what is acceptable conduct in a criminal defence. Gravely had to decide if Murray was abiding by lawyer-client privilege and guilty of poor judgment, or if he acted criminally.

But it's not over for Murray. Regardless of whether the Crown appeals the decision, he still faces a disciplinary hearing from the law society.


Okay, sorry for the above. I shall crawl back to my cave and try not to do this to you again

 

[Charlot123]

"talented parents having smart children, but very few outsmart or overachieve the parents? The same is true for outstanding athletes, and everyone else."

Not necessarily so, Patrick Mahomes, Peyton and Eli Manning, Ken Griffey Jr., Richard Petty are just a few.

Surely, and after all, gifted people usually have smart parents, so up to a certain level, it could be an ascending slope. But there are also lots of other, much sadder, examples.

 

[alaksachill]

Who Killed the Billionaire Founder of a Generic Drug Empire?

Since I'm new probably a good idea to clarify that I have no connection to the case. I read this preceding thread where at some point the above article was linked. Based on article's publication date and to the extent fall/winter 2018 are relevant to developing info, the quotes therein may seem relevant to the timeline.

Just my opinion- if one were involved in a private investigation where someone they perhaps suspected was also involved with the private investigation, the reporting party may first go direct to law enforcement to avoid conflicts of interest, to avoid putting others in difficult positions (such as the private attorney), etc. But it's a good point that it's possible the reporting party could go to both law enforcement and private investigation's head, just one, or both in either chronological order, or simultaneously.

All just my opinions. Edited for typos and clarification.

 

[deugirtni]

My head is spinning... so much to think about.. so many possibilities as to what took place to cause AS to believe her bro was involved with the heinous murders of their parents.

For starters, without much thinking, it now becomes known to me (imo) why AS was said (by JS per others in his family, to KD) to have been saying AS was afraid JS was going to shoot her. Up until now, I didn't give that statement much credit or thought.

Jonathon says he and Alex, who are just three years apart in age, were always close growing up and he is upset that they no longer speak. He says one of his siblings has told him that Alex thinks he carries a gun at all times and is going to “pull it out” and “shoot her in front of everybody.”
Barry Sherman’s son says his father asked him to repay tens of millions of dollars, two weeks before murders, but Barry was ‘all in’ with son’s business

 

[dotr]

May 1 2023 rbbm

Sherman murders Q&A recap: Kevin Donovan tells listeners that he thinks the murder was a two-man job

Kevin Donovan, investigative reporter and the host of The Billionaire Murders podcast, returned for a live chat to answer questions about the latest episode.

www.thestar.com

''Toronto Star
Hi everyone.
Kevin Donovan, the Star's chief investigative reporter and the host of The Billionaire Murders, takes your questions about the podcast's latest episodes on Mon. May 1 at 1 p.m.
Listen to the latest episode at The Billionaire Murders: The hunt for the killers of Honey and Barry Sherman Podcast
To join the conversation, drop your questions below now, or join us live on Monday.''

 

[Clark2002]

What if the killer or killers were killed shortly after murdering the Sherman’s? The person who arranged the murder may not have wanted to take the chance of that person telling anyone and leading the police to them. I feel like the murderer is from overseas and was killed there as well. Would police investigating a murder in a foreign country be able to link them to the Sherman’s? Maybe the reward was increased because with the murderer dead there would be no chance to have to pay it out.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

For anyone who submitted questions to KD before the chat, did he answer them? I've asked 1 to 3ach of the last 2 and he didn't answer, yet he answered "statements" a couple of times. I wonder if it's better to ask when it's live.

 

[jgsmith]

For anyone who submitted questions to KD before the chat, did he answer them? I've asked 1 to 3ach of the last 2 and he didn't answer, yet he answered "statements" a couple of times. I wonder if it's better to ask when it's live.

I submitted mine the day before and he answered it, but only after he responded to some...well...bland statements. I think there is a moderator that is feeding the questions to him and they seem to be looking at the live questions first and only going to the earlier ones as needed.

 

[ldlager]

It's not so much that he has balls inserting himself into the family meeting, it's usually because JS wanted him there.

Very possible AP exerts significant control and influence over JS

 

[FPoulet]

Anyone notice or find it interesting that KD said he thinks it’s a 2-person job when asked if he thinks it’s a 2-man job? Is that sensitivity to gendered terms or a suggestion he thinks a woman is involved? Further to this, KD believes 2 people were involved, that the people knew B&H and were not professionals, that it was not long planned, and that the WM might be a lookout. All per KD’s last Q&A. I think this is the most info he has given about his theory to date. Thoughts?

 

[WINDSOR]

Anyone notice or find it interesting that KD said he thinks it’s a 2-person job when asked if he thinks it’s a 2-man job? Is that sensitivity to gendered terms or a suggestion he thinks a woman is involved? Further to this, KD believes 2 people were involved, that the people knew B&H and were not professionals, that it was not long planned, and that the WM might be a lookout. All per KD’s last Q&A. I think this is the most info he has given about his theory to date. Thoughts?

KD has done an outstanding and meritorious work on the Sherman case. We must also realize his thoughts and theories are based on information that he is aware of but we may not know. On the other hand, his theories, are exactly that, his theories. When KD said he thinks it was a 2-person job, it does not preclude the possibility of more people being involved.

Having read some published of Israeli Counter-terrorism activities, they often involved 'teams' that had specific roles, such as Surveillance, Security, Operations, Logistics, Escape. all operating independently yet cohesively. This makes almost impossible for LE to put a case together even if they arrest one person, most likely the arrested person knows nothing of the activities of the other team members.

I am sure other espionage services operate similarly.

To me, the Sherman hit has many similarities to one of these types of actions.

 

[dotr]

Just came across this intriguing bit in an article concerning the weird (only item stolen was a ritual circumcision knife) cold case murder of a Rabbi in DC.
1984 rbbm. fwiw..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1984/03/02/rabbi-rabinowitz-the-mourning-and-the-mystery/3c2d4c4e-1ae2-461d-b910-eb0dd4517313/

''The cortege turned the corner and was gone. It was headed to the airport so that the body of Rabbi Rabinowitz could be put on a noon flight to New York, and thence to Israel, to be buried before sundown tonight.

And why so fast? Because it says in Deuteronomy that the corpse of a murderer should not be allowed to hang overnight. Rabbinical tradition applies this scripture to any corpse, and how much more to the corpse of a beloved one. It was easy to think, watching the parade go off, watching these walkers, that, somehow, out of this dark would come a light . . .''

 

[kateferg]

Very possible AP exerts significant control and influence over JS

I agree. I also wonder if he is more than a business partner and whether that might also have been a reason for BS to disapprove and not want to include AP in family financial discussions. This might also explain to some extent why JS insisted that he be included in the meeting? It reminds me of how a person might behave when their family isn't accepting of their chosen life partner. And I can't help but notice how AP, FM and JS are all directors of their charitable Foundation...

 

[dotr]

honey and barry sherman - Google Search

 

[MerlinFalcon]

I agree. I also wonder if he is more than a business partner and whether that might also have been a reason for BS to disapprove and not want to include AP in family financial discussions. This might also explain to some extent why JS insisted that he be included in the meeting? It reminds me of how a person might behave when their family isn't accepting of their chosen life partner. And I can't help but notice how AP, FM and JS are all directors of their charitable Foundation...

AP intrigues me so much because we know nothing about him. I have a feeling he is the brains behind JS' and his business ventures, and to JS his businesses are a hobby while AP likely sees them as his livelihood. I wish he would agree to talk to KD, and I do find it intriguing how few of the family members have used the media to keep the murders in the spotlight. KD mentioned exactly that in a podcast. Do they all have something to hide? Do the kids just want to live their lives with their fortunes? It wasn't a happy childhood with a mostly absent father and a mother who they didn't get along with.

 

[dotr]

AP intrigues me so much because we know nothing about him. I have a feeling he is the brains behind JS' and his business ventures, and to JS his businesses are a hobby while AP likely sees them as his livelihood. I wish he would agree to talk to KD, and I do find it intriguing how few of the family members have used the media to keep the murders in the spotlight. KD mentioned exactly that in a podcast. Do they all have something to hide? Do the kids just want to live their lives with their fortunes? It wasn't a happy childhood with a mostly absent father and a mother who they didn't get along with.

rbbm.
AK has tried..

Honey and Barry Sherman's daughter pleads for help to solve parents' murder on 5th anniversary

Honey and Barry Sherman's daughter is speaking out ahead of the five-year anniversary of her parents' unsolved murders, imploring anyone with information to help solve the killings.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Dec. 8, 2022 rbbm
''The daughter of slain billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman is making an appeal for information ahead of the fifth anniversary of her parents' still unsolved murder.
In a statement released Thursday, Alexandra Krawczyk — one of the couple’s four children — said justice has so far been elusive for her family and her heart remains “broken.”
“Five years ago, on Dec. 13, 2017, my beloved parents, Honey and Barry Sherman, were brutally murdered in their Toronto home. So far there has been no justice for them and no closure for me and my family,” Krawczyk wrote.
“My heart is broken. My loss is immeasurable. My children have lost their grandparents. We miss their guidance, love, and wisdom.”

She said the family is releasing the appeal for information because “we cannot let another year pass without justice being done.”

''Former police chief Mark Saunders told CP24 in 2018 that police were “aggressively” looking at “an international lens.”