CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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Was Christine's body covered up at all? I don't remember reading anything about her body being hidden or covered up. If she wasn't, why not? Did the perp return to her body to ravage her again? to position her body? I have a feeling he went back. JMO
 
For accuracy,
re post 550
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Unsolved murder of Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984, Queensville, Ontario

At least three witnesses important to the timing of the main events changed their stories and at least three claimed it was at the request of the Police. Ken Jessop, Janet Jessop, (friend) believed to be Leslie. Others changed stories apparently upon receipt of proof; (secretary) that evidence since lost. There were some suggestions the school bus had a usual schedule but that times varied with traffic flow day to day.

At least one of the witnesses claiming to have seen Christine on the corner was asked to change his story from seeing Christine with a young male to a young female.

As said, all sightings at the corner were very close in time and its unlikely witnesses had their watches syncronized or were wearing stop watches to be completely accurate. Why would the Police ask the one witness to say Christine was last seen with a young female? Afterall, they were claiming Christine never even made it to the store before being lured away by GPM back at home, right? So what would it matter if the man reported seeing a young male companion with Christine instead of a female? According to later Police actions, it seems of no consequence any way.
 
For accuracy,
re post 550
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CANADA Unsolved murder of Christine Jessop - October 3, 1984, Queensville, Ontario

At least three witnesses important to the timing of the main events changed their stories and at least three claimed it was at the request of the Police. Ken Jessop, Janet Jessop, (friend) believed to be Leslie. Others changed stories apparently upon receipt of proof; (secretary) that evidence since lost. There were some suggestions the school bus had a usual schedule but that times varied with traffic flow day to day.

At least one of the witnesses claiming to have seen Christine on the corner was asked to change his story from seeing Christine with a young male to a young female.

As said, all sightings at the corner were very close in time and its unlikely witnesses had their watches syncronized or were wearing stop watches to be completely accurate. Why would the Police ask the one witness to say Christine was last seen with a young female? Afterall, they were claiming Christine never even made it to the store before being lured away by GPM back at home, right? So what would it matter if the man reported seeing a young male companion with Christine instead of a female? According to later Police actions, it seems of no consequence any way.

Is that not the second subtle attempt to cast doubts on the victim's family? The first one was casting doubt on Janet's memory. Oh my.
Wonder where it is leading.
Third actually since Ken's 14 year investigation is also under some scrutiny. Who would have more info than family members?
 
Was Christine's body covered up at all? I don't remember reading anything about her body being hidden or covered up. If she wasn't, why not? Did the perp return to her body to ravage her again? to position her body? I have a feeling he went back. JMO

According to what I've read, she didn't even have a leaf on her. None of the environmental detritus you would expect to see on a body lying near a wooded area for three months.

More conflicting data.
 
According to what I've read, she didn't even have a leaf on her. None of the environmental detritus you would expect to see on a body lying near a wooded area for three months.

More conflicting data.

That is so very strange and really makes me feel that the perp stayed in the general area after her murder and kept revisiting. sigh.
 
Is that not the second subtle attempt to cast doubts on the victim's family? The first one was casting doubt on Janet's memory. Oh my.
Wonder where it is leading.
Third actually since Ken's 14 year investigation is also under some scrutiny. Who would have more info than family members?

??? I have no idea what you are speaking of here M. Cast doubt on victims family? On Janet's memory? Where is it leading? It was the family who said they were asked to change their timing. I read an article where a friend, I believe Leslie said the same. Just stating that and in reference to the timing of the entire event. Not leading anywhere, not dissing the family, just pointing it out.

There are no conclusions being drawn, much too early for that imo.

The witness claiming to have seen CJ on the corner was of interest as the sighting also mentioned the recorder. Part of that statement claimed a few young witnesses were also there with her. That is the part I am pointing out as it is an avenue with potential corroboration.

The rest, I really can not address for there is no intent as you allude and even now I fail to see how that casts doubts on the victims family. Sorry, but either I missed something or something has been misinterpreted.

I am aware that Ken has a suspect in mind as well as several others who have their suspects. I realize everyone has their reasons and will no doubt put their best case forward for each as we go. These were just a few points in regard to the corner sightings. Disregard if you wish. They are on record.
 
Apologies Orora. You have misunderstood and I could have written that more clear, so perhaps I will explain it better (and be at someone's wrath for it).
The subtle attempts at casting aspersions was not by you, however it has appeared here in past pages, another site as well, and it can begin to cast doubt on the family of the victim. That's all I will say about it.
 
I've spent the afternoon reading this thread, from start to finish and have some thoughts and opinions to throw out--please excuse that is a "50,000 foot" view instead of in the right category at the right time--I only have an overview at this point (but after this post will head off to read all the primary materials).

First, thanks to Woodland and D'man for bringing not only attention but a wealth of information to this thread--it is much appreciated and clear you both care deeply about Christine and have your facts straight.

That said, I might stick my neck out just enough to say that I was almost scared off by some exchanges. This IS a place for discussion--not just facts and science and numbers but also theories, implications, innuendo and inferences. I thought the purpose of the thread (and all in the DISCUSSION part of the site) was to get great sleuthing minds together. Not all minds think alike but the point is to throw things out--even if they might not prove true--so that the group as a whole can reach a consensus. I'm an attorney and while hearsay is not admissible, it doesn't mean it isn't helpful. It's sorting the wheat from the chaff but we can't sort if we don't know. I was dismayed at how offtrack the conversation got for a while. Yes, the science matters--it matters greatly, but aside from that, other things matter too.

I do not in any way mean this disrespectfully, but, I think, perhaps, some folks care so deeply and know so much that it can come off as a bit aggressive and inhibits discussion. I suspect others have been scared off by those chunks of exchanges between a few. We all get our hackles raised by things that matter greatly to us. But most of us are fairly new to this case and just trying to sort through the massive information. We'll get there (to where you experts are) I suspect--but we aren't there yet and need a bit of patience with us.

If the point is the more people who know, the more people who engage, the higher the possibility of resolution---then perhaps it might be more helpful to let people exchange thoughts and rumors to the extent allowed here at WS--even if they can't be documented exactly. And there are rules for it that should be followed and I think they have been--with the exception that everybody with "insider" knowledge has broken the "verified" rule as noted by mods.

I honestly didn't see anything in this thread (and again, have read entire thing in one sitting) that would merit the attention of the mods--until people started snarking at each other and, again, then I almost left.

Almost. I apologize if I have hurt anyone's feelings but I truly felt it needed saying if the group hopes to attract attention, gain traction and, ultimately, achieve justice for Christine.

At the heart of the matter, I see every post here joined in the same cause--to help achieve justice for Christine.

Onward. I want to read more of the primary materials but a few things that caught my eye initially:

1. In one of the descriptions of the body (please don't make me go back and quote but is from when D'man put the two comparing ones up) it says "two pairs of socks". I think this might be a Canadian thing--but to an American that means literally 4 socks. Was she wearing a pair of socks or two pairs of socks? I'm not sure it's important but regardless of whether she was nude or clothed--the agreement point is that she was wearing socks. If two pair--why?

2. When I read those first descriptions of her injuries my immediate thought was "a young and inexperienced hunter who thinks he is gutting a deer or other animal and it doesn't work like that" I also apologize up front for my terrible understanding of Canadian geography and the area in specific--but would hunting be normal and all boys generally would partake? I'm in New England and that is the case here--meaning that would be a pretty worthless thought--but if not overly the norm in the area, maybe not so meaningless?

3. I am pretty sure the answer to this is "no" but was a crime scene analysis done on the trailer at any point? It was a weekday (school) and neighbors/locals would/could know who the weekenders were....and that the trailer was empty during the week. It could theoretically explain the lack of blood etc---the trailer was the crime scene and there was enough time to clean up (it was a Wednesday--that gives them 48-72 hours if the owners came that same weekend) and nobody ever did forensic testing on it. The owners noticed a break-in later, but that doesn't mean there weren't break ins earlier that weren't noticed. It would have been empty, private and Christine was dumped, egregiously and nauseatingly, in the area of the garbage pit, just out back. Most criminals are depressingly lazy.

4. Kind of random, but someone questioned the masking tape and whether it was maybe duct tape. I was in high school in 84 but in elementary school when we got our recorders, our names were put on them with masking tape, so that makes total sense to me. When I read that, I actually immediately visualized bringing mine home in that little bag (later years it was a nasty brown plastic thing) and my name taped on it. It was very exciting that first time.

Again, I apologize if I offended anyone with some of my thoughts and most certainly everything hereinabove is MOO.

And again, thanks to those who brought the case to WS.
 
Hi and welcome Chinacat! I agree with your opinions and felt like not participating in this particular forum even with the wealth of knowledge on here. I've decided that I will help sleuth particular suspects in the case and contribute whatever I can. About the two pairs of socks: I think CJ was in the habit of doubling up on socks, that is, wearing one pair of socks over top of the the other pair. I don't have the source but I think Kirk Makin wrote about it in his book.
 
Chinacat67 - on the socks - I learned from a writer a couple of years ago that a child wearing layered clothing is a clue to LE that sexual abuse exists in the child's life - it's a defense mechanism. Have never sought to determine that through research and could not determine if LE employ this knowledge in 1984 as a rule and specifically York Region and Durham Region Police. There were also multiple tops/sweaters worn (the turtleneck apparently not recognized by family).

On the masking tape - would it have stayed adhered to fabric exposed to the elements for 3 months?

Thanks.
 
Ok, I usually don't immediately post anything while digesting the information in the primary materials, but I cannot help but express my horror at the incompetence, laziness, attitude, and general dysfunction of the investigation!

I know in some ways it matters not and that hindsight is 20/20, but, my goodness, the investigators took carelessness and neglect to a level I've never seen! The failure to arrest and prosecute the killer is not surprising considering the investigation. I'm not sure they could've comprised things more if they had tried.

:banghead:
 
Chinacat67 - on the socks - I learned from a writer a couple of years ago that a child wearing layered clothing is a clue to LE that sexual abuse exists in the child's life - it's a defense mechanism. Have never sought to determine that through research and could not determine if LE employ this knowledge in 1984 as a rule and specifically York Region and Durham Region Police. There were also multiple tops/sweaters worn (the turtleneck apparently not recognized by family).

On the masking tape - would it have stayed adhered to fabric exposed to the elements for 3 months?

Thanks.

Thanks!!

Interesting on the socks---it really seems weird to me---upthread it was mentioned it wasn't that cold of a day and it would make it uncomfortable in normal school shoes, I would think.

On the masking tape--if it was, as it were, left there on the first day she had it -I totally think it could have. It's only when in use by kids that the tape starts to curl up, get dirty and lose stickiness and fall off. When it's brand new on the plastic recorder, it's on there good and well, I believe.
 
Ok, I usually don't immediately post anything while digesting the information in the primary materials, but I cannot help but express my horror at the incompetence, laziness, attitude, and general dysfunction of the investigation!

I know in some ways it matters not and that hindsight is 20/20, but, my goodness, the investigators took carelessness and neglect to a level I've never seen! The failure to arrest and prosecute the killer is not surprising considering the investigation. I'm not sure they could've comprised things more if they had tried.

:banghead:

I could not have said it better myself, Chinacat. A very solvable case that has been trampled and bungled, and has left a little girl in the cold ground (with a view of her house - I might add) with almost no hope for justice. And a despicable excuse for a human being smiling somewhere because against the odds, he managed to get away with it. A travesty, and evidence that we do not live in a moral universe where all wrongs are eventually made right.

Glad to have you on the thread.
 
Chuckles Chinacat67 - you pretty much mirror a line from RR - page 63.

'... the Durham police could not have shot off their collective feet any more successfully had they actually taken aim and fired.'

Any thoughts on the Toronto Police investigation?
 
I know in some ways it matters not and that hindsight is 20/20, but, my goodness, the investigators took carelessness and neglect to a level I've never seen! The failure to arrest and prosecute the killer is not surprising considering the investigation. I'm not sure they could've comprised things more if they had tried.

Good stuff, hold onto some of those thoughts chinacat67. This is another important part of what happened here not so easily glossed over once one knows the difference. It can't be avoided.

And no problem Marikesh. Forget sometimes there is a long history trying to get to the bottom of things here.
 
Thanks!!

Interesting on the socks---it really seems weird to me---upthread it was mentioned it wasn't that cold of a day and it would make it uncomfortable in normal school shoes, I would think.

On the masking tape--if it was, as it were, left there on the first day she had it -I totally think it could have. It's only when in use by kids that the tape starts to curl up, get dirty and lose stickiness and fall off. When it's brand new on the plastic recorder, it's on there good and well, I believe.

Also, in regards to the wearing of two pairs of socks and the layering of clothes... Christine was a skinny girl. Her growth somewhat undeveloped by gastrointestinal issues at a young age. Her mother points out how thin she was many times when describing her daughter (see specifically the Kaufman Report description that I posted) and I seem to recall that she had started wearing layers of clothing as a way of bulking herself up. If she was being teased at school about being skinny, that would make a lot of sense, but I also think Woodland's notion of the sexual abuse symptom has merit as well.

Masking tape is annoyingly durable. Super-sticky adhesive on one side and a thin waterproof coating on the other. I have no issue with the tape still being on the recorder pouch in December. It's also an easy experiment to conduct as we head into the fall here in Southern Ontario.

Also, as we head into September, I'm taking careful note of the height and thickness of the grass and the goldenrod along the edge of forests and along farmer's fields. It's damned thick and above my elbows in most places. If I sit down, my wife can't even see me. Lying down, I'm totally invisible.
 
Chinacat67 wrote: When I read those first descriptions of her injuries my immediate thought was "a young and inexperienced hunter who thinks he is gutting a deer or other animal and it doesn't work like that" I also apologize up front for my terrible understanding of Canadian geography and the area in specific--but would hunting be normal and all boys generally would partake? I'm in New England and that is the case here--meaning that would be a pretty worthless thought--but if not overly the norm in the area, maybe not so meaningless?

There would have been a lot of hunting activity in general in the Sunderland area - more so in 1984 than now, as there are more restrictions on getting a hunting license now and issues with firearm registration, etc. I speak as one who knows having grown up in Southern Ontario from a family of traditional hunters (although I no longer participate and have not for years and years). When I did hunt with my father and grandfather and uncles there would be lots of opportunity to wander remote areas and discover hundreds of secluded spots, tractor trails, ravines, woods, forests, etc. In one of my earlier posts I suggested that the perpetrator may have had a connection to the disposal site in Sunderland because he had hunted the area or maybe ridden a snowmobile around there in the wintertime. You're the only one who seemed to pick up on the hunter-angle as well. However, the injury to C's breastbone speaks of a totally inept "hunter" as you would not try to cut that if you where field dressing a deer or some other animal. If you can stomach the images, there are online videos where hunters show how to conduct this procedure quickly and correctly.
 
Also, in regards to the wearing of two pairs of socks and the layering of clothes... Christine was a skinny girl. Her growth somewhat undeveloped by gastrointestinal issues at a young age. Her mother points out how thin she was many times when describing her daughter (see specifically the Kaufman Report description that I posted) and I seem to recall that she had started wearing layers of clothing as a way of bulking herself up. If she was being teased at school about being skinny, that would make a lot of sense, but I also think Woodland's notion of the sexual abuse symptom has merit as well.

Just wanted to mention that in the '80s it was very normal to wear layers... Yes even socks. I'm about the same age as Ken and I wore two pairs of slouch socks regularly. They would be two different colours, layered so both could be seen, and usually matching my tops. It was also quite normal to wear two or more tops. For me it was a turtleneck with a sweater (sometimes a cardigan) over top. Then the necklace would come from inside the turtlenck and dangle down over the neck part. And as far as temperature it didn't matter, that was the style and that's what you wore. Being as thin as Christine was she probably felt the cold more than others. W's idea of sexual abuse and CJ's Mom's idea about being skinny could also play into this. I personally think it was a combination of them all... Hiding size and abuse while trying to fit in with her clothes. JMOO.
 
SUSPECT: “UNCLE” HECTOR DRUMMOND (pseudonym)


From the Redrum: The Innocent:
(point form notes from pgs 48-49, some notes rearranged for clarity)


- a family friend - “Uncle” Hector Drummond visited the Jessop house three or four times a year often in the company of Janet’s father (Gordon Simpson)
- he was described as a “strange old coot”, “witty but cold and aloof” and “eccentric”
- Janet remembered her mother making a cryptic remark that suggested that Drummond liked to dress up in women’s clothing
- as a youth, Janet had stayed well clear of the “odd fellow”
- in recent years Janet found him less threatening and viewed him as sufficiently harmless and took to calling him “Uncle”
- at the time of Christine’s disappearance Drummond usually stuck around his old stone home in Durham Region and gathered antiques
- he was independently wealthy and a lifelong bachelor
- owned a private hospital
- when Bob Jessop was cleaning out the garage/shed some time in the fall after Christine had disappeared, but before her body was discovered in Sunderland, he discovered a crumpled piece of paper that seemed to be a crudely drawn map to their home in Queensville
- the lines led eastward to Durham Region
- showing the crude map to Janet, they concluded that the map terminated awfully close to the residence of “Uncle” Drummond
- Bob and Janet went on their own to Drummond’s house and (according to them) discovered a notepad lying on an end table
- they believed that the paper of the pad still held the impression of the map Bob had found in the garage
- Bob and Janet passed this information on to police


Correct me if I’m wrong, Woodland (or anyone else who has the book), but there’s no further mention of “Uncle” Hector Drummond in Redrum. The implication being that police never took the Jessop story about the map seriously, or they did investigate Drummond and cleared him… or this weird story just got lost in the shuffle of paperwork…?

If there is further mention of Drummond in the book, I can't find it -- and due to the lack of an index... (sigh)
 
This is a question I’ve had for some time, and since the thread has gone a little… slow… I’ll toss this out.

(Actually, it's a few questions.)

On the cover of the 1998 “New Edition” of Redrum: The Innocent by Kirk Makin (the edition that I have), down at the bottom of the cover, is what appears to be a grainy photograph of the Sunderland body disposal site. (But, maybe it’s not…?)

Whoever took the photo could be standing at the edge of the farmer’s field facing north (facing Brock Concession Rd 4).

Or, is this photo taken from the edge of Brock Concession Rd 4 facing south - looking down the tractor path that leads to the site?

My main question is this: To the right of the picture is a tall standing object with a door...

What is that object?

Is it some strange outhouse? If so, why does one side of it have facets or triangular-shaped projections? What is it doing there? It looks like it has a solid enough construction…

I can’t figure it out.
Can anyone enlighten me (us)…?

I’ve included a close-up of the picture in question and ramped up the contrast so that the object is more visible.
 

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