Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[OldSteve]

Updating Truth Prevails' excellent compairison listing ...

Shelby: 20
Yeonhee: 45
Genevieve: 19


HEIGHT & WEIGHT:

Shelby: 5’4”; 110 lbs., slim build
Yeonhee: 5’4”
Genevieve: 5’7” to 5’8”; 120 lbs.


HAIR COLOR:

Shelby: Hazel eyes and shoulder length brown hair.
Yeonhee: Short, dark hair.
Genevieve: Hazel eyes and long brown hair


PICTURE OF EACH:

Shelby:

2011

Yeonhee:

Genevieve:

MENTAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: No confirmation of any. Her friend said she was doing well after having lost a baby the previous month.
Yeonhee: Currently taking her prescribed prescription medication for depression.
Genevieve: Some anxiety problems years ago.


PHYSICAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Nothing known.
Yeonhee: Nothing known.
Genevieve: Nothing known.


FINANCIAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Maybe. She had a 3 year old son who lived with her mother. She was staying in a shelter offering assistance to young, single mothers.
Yeonhee: Her husband put up a $50,000.00 reward for information leading to her whereabouts.
Genevieve: She was still living at home and attending high school. A struggling student, you might say—just like thousands of others. She even had a job interview lined up for the next day.


WORKING:

Shelby: Nothing mentioned.
Yeonhee: Nothing mentioned.
Genevieve: Was working at a daycare through a high-school program.


MARRIED/DIVORCED/CHILDREN/PETS/OTHER DEPENDENTS:

Shelby: A three year old son whom her mother was currently caring for.
Yeonhee: Married; residing with her husband; and had a daughter in Grade 10.
Genevieve: Pets are possible, but no to the others.


DATE, DAY OF THE WEEK, AND TIME THEY WENT MISSING:

Shelby: Saturday night—around midnight; September 22, 2012.
Yeonhee: Monday morning—last seen at around 6:00 am; April 22, 2013.
Genevieve: Sunday afternoon—last confirmed sighting at around 4:30 pm; September 29, 2013.
Note: Shelby went missing from the uptown area on a Saturday night in 2012.
Genevieve was in the uptown area also on a Saturday night, but a year plus a week later.


LAST KNOWN PLACE THEY WERE SEEN AND BY WHOM:

Shelby: Last seen in the uptown area; no word on who last saw her.
Yeonhee: Last seen on Prince St., west; no word on who last saw her.
Genevieve: Last seen heading toward the west side and had just passed the BoAz Restaurant; no word on who last saw her.


DATE, DAY OF WEEK, AND TIME THEY WERE FOUND:

Shelby: Found at Long Wharf on Saturday, October 13, 2012, around the noon hour—21 days later.
Yeonhee: Found at Long Wharf on Monday, June 24, 2013, at 8:47 am—63 days later.
Genevieve: Found at Anthony’s Cove on Saturday, October 2, 2013, at 2:40 pm—34 days later.


ITEMS FOUND WITH VICTIM:

Shelby: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Yeonhee: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Genevieve: With much thanks and appreciation to Gen’s sister, we know Gen was found with her over-the-shoulder bag and it still contained her passport.


ITEMS LEFT AT HOME:

Shelby: She left her purse at a friend’s apartment/house; but took her wallet and her cell phone with her.
Yeonhee: Her cell phone and her depression medication were left at home. She may have been carrying a black leather back pack.
Genevieve: She was returning home after staying overnight with friends, so everything was probably left home except what she had taken with her for the night. We know she had her cell phone with her at the time of her disappearance.


THINGS IN COMMON

Genevieve and Shelby overlapping attendance Saint John High School. Perhaps
friends in common?
Genevieve and Yeonhee walked same pathway.

ITEMS REPORTED MISSING:

Shelby: Reported that she had her wallet and cell phone with her when she left to go to the uptown area.
Yeonhee: Reported that she may have been carrying a small, black, backpack when she left her home that morning.
Genevieve: No word on whether her cell phone was ever found.


LENGTH OF TIME BEFORE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS ANNOUNCED:

Shelby: On October 17, 2012—4 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...Foul play is not suspected; no further details will be released. ...”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/body-found-in-saint-john-harbour-identified-1.1226320

Yeonhee: On July 12, 2013—18 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...An autopsy determined there was no foul play ...”
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/736585/n-b-police-identify-body-found-in-harbour/

Genevieve: We are still officially awaiting the pathologist’s report, (who is apparently awaiting the toxicology report.) Although, on Nov. 4, 2013—2 days after her remains washed ashore at Anthony's Cove—Quote: “Police do not suspect foul play in the death of New Brunswick teenager Genevieve Cormier, but are not ruling it out until they have the autopsy report.
...
“We are awaiting the pathologist’s report to conclude the investigation.” Saint John Police Force Sgt. Jay Henderson told CBC News on Monday.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ected-in-death-of-genevieve-cormier-1.2355421


And two small maps which show striking similarities between the three cases, created from facts above:

The orange marker is where Shelby's remains were found. The blue marker is where Yeonhee's remains were found--very close to six months apart. Thanks to WS'er LoyalSleuth for doing this map!
Link to full size version: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z88SNeFUr_v8.kBv0MT5KhhHk

The yellow arrows mark the path Yeonhee was known to take; and the red arrows mark the path Genevieve was known to take. Same path, but they were going in different directions--with a separation of about 6 months in between their respective final journeys. Interesting to note, Gen's disappearance was nearly one year to the day from Shelby's disappearance.
Link to full size version: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rj8p1s9gsdg5&lvl=19.3&dir=173.89&sty=o&form=LMLTSN[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[OldSteve]

Genevieve's death stands out as the most difficult of the three to figure out. We have the most info about her. How did she get into the water? How could her purse have stayed with her?

 

[Truth Prevails]

My thinking is that Gen was taken and held somewhere and then placed the water - I just cannot see her purse staying with her like it did.

She may have been tricked/coaxed into getting back into her clothing after being held by (s) and who knows what was done with/to her. (Ugh! don't like saying that!)

Agree and it makes sense what you said Truth about her ID being purposely kept and in her purse and that it was purposely left with her so she'ed be ID'ed.

In the idea world - tests would be done using some sort of human like dummy to see if they are placed in the water at locations corresponding to where these women are believed (or best guess) to have entered the water, and then see where currents, etc. would take them... thought would have to be done close to same time of years for true test... It's possible the currents are such that they would wind up where the real women were found; dispelling the coincidence of the two who were found so close to each other.

BBM - If that were the case, they should be able to tell, if they looked at all. We would never know it--I'm sure that is one of the things they would keep private. Something like that might come out at trial, if there ever is one.

There are really not many other scenarios that would work, if any. One runs through my mind where he had her tied somehow to purposely make her purse stay on. It's doubtful that he had to worry about ligature marks, and he probably realized that.

I know officially no rope was found.

This part might be a little bit graphic, but there are some large and smaller rocks when you are making shore on most of those beaches in that area.

She would float in face down, and she could have been taken back out and washed back in with the tides again--before being discovered.

That would be rough, rough going. If rope were used, I can see it maybe being rotted; weakened; and loosened by being in the ocean; and letting go as the water scraped her across the rocks as it pushed her to shore.

I hope they checked the beach for rope or any ties of any sort, but they could have washed back out on their own as soon as they were free.

You know, I regret saying that having her purse with her was a point for the accidental death theory.

She definitely would not have had her purse still with her if she somehow accidentally fell in that water; or even if someone ran out and suddenly pushed her.

Her purse should have been gone in under 20 minutes.

Something, somehow held that purse on; even if she was carefully placed in the bay a certain number of feet from shore. (It would have to be far enough out that no one could see.)

It's just so questionable that it would stay on her, but at least there is a greater maybe with that thinking.

That's an excellent point about learning the drop point of the women by tracing backward from their found point.

I'm not so sure they would have to do much testing--they may be able to get a very good idea from looking at some of the river/ocean current charts.

I'm still trying to find some of them on line for that particular area, but I haven't found any that are free. I'm about ready to check the price of the ones that aren't. LOL

 

[Truth Prevails]

:rockon:

It's disappointing that there aren't any matches, but I am still trying to locate the records for the day Shelby disappeared.

It would be interesting to know if there are any matches between even two of the victims.

Although, I'm still favoring the possible perpetrator as being a possible local resident.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Genevieve's death stands out as the most difficult of the three to figure out. We have the most info about her. How did she get into the water? How could her purse have stayed with her?

I find them all as being equally mysterious.

From the little we know, I don't see any of them being depressed enough to take their own lives; or to accidentally drown.

For example, most people who accidentally drown are usually at the beach for the day; or out in a small boat; or something of that nature. Not very many people accidentally fall in the water from a path that they frequently use to go to and fro a certain point.

I'm sure if we had an opportunity to visit the area, we would find that path a very solid, safe path--a good distance away from the water's embankment.

I suspect it is known and used mainly by locals. It appears to be an old path. When I lived on the west side of Saint John; I did not know of it.

And with Shelby--tons of young people go out on a Saturday night in uptown Saint John. I don't believe I have heard of one that ended up floating in Long Wharf.

If these women were not murdered, I do not understand how any of them would end up in the water.

I think we got to know a little bit more about Genevieve, because the pressure is really mounting in the city. Shelby's sudden disappearance was hardly mentioned; Yeonhee's got a little more attention; and Genevieve's more still.

The public wants to see that LE is doing something to try to find these women before it is too late. A few media reports help out with that.

I don't dare go on another rant about Gen's purse. :blushing:

 

[Crimson clover]

Truth I believe the shoulder bag was one that crossed over your chest and under your arm on the other side.( as per Kat)

One thing that I find confusing is the conflicting story of who was in the video with Genn.It was stated that it was her friend Nick ,but her father had stated on Facebook that this person was unknown to her and was just a random encounter with a stranger.Maybe Kat,you could clarify this.....

Amazing reading...the time, work, investment you guys spend...Amazing! All for Genevieve.
I'm still here...hanging on the prayer train...Justice for Gen.

BBM - Most confusing. I'm stuck on it. Friend...then, stranger. Idk.
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I have never stood before a stranger... faced a stranger in Gen's manner.
I think she knew 'backpack guy' somehow, someway...and her demise quite possibly stemmed from her associations her very last Saturday night/Sunday. Idk.

 

[jillybean51]

Amazing reading...the time, work, investment you guys spend...Amazing! All for Genevieve.
I'm still here...hanging on the prayer train...Justice for Gen.

BBM - Most confusing. I'm stuck on it. Friend...then, stranger. Idk.
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I have never stood before a stranger... faced a stranger in Gen's manner.
I think she knew 'backpack guy' somehow, someway...and her demise quite possibly stemmed from her associations her very last Saturday night/Sunday. Idk.

I agree...there is even a person in black clothing on the escalator at the same time leaving.I can't figure out the discrepancy between known/ complete stranger.
Also ,if Genn was in the water for 34 days with her passport,would it even be intact after all that time in salt water.I tried to find on Google,the integrity of a passport in those conditions,after that amount of time ,but no luck so far.It could give an idea of the length of time in the water,if we knew that...

 

[Truth Prevails]

Amazing reading...the time, work, investment you guys spend...Amazing! All for Genevieve.
I'm still here...hanging on the prayer train...Justice for Gen.

Is it okay if I hitchhike a drive on your train, Crimson?

Justice for Genevieve!--if we can't make a case for justice for all three women!

BBM - Most confusing. I'm stuck on it. Friend...then, stranger. Idk.
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I have never stood before a stranger... faced a stranger in Gen's manner.
I think she knew 'backpack guy' somehow, someway...and her demise quite possibly stemmed from her associations her very last Saturday night/Sunday. Idk.

You know, I think I might exchange a few words with someone while waiting at a counter, especially if there were just the two of us.

A polite conversation about the weather, or some little thing like that, while waiting for my food or coffee, is something I have done.

I agree...there is even a person in black clothing on the escalator at the same time leaving.I can't figure out the discrepancy between known/ complete stranger.
Also ,if Genn was in the water for 34 days with her passport,would it even be intact after all that time in salt water.I tried to find on Google,the integrity of a passport in those conditions,after that amount of time ,but no luck so far.It could give an idea of the length of time in the water,if we knew that...

Gen's mom mentioned that she had told 'Nick' she was heading home. That fits the 3:30 pm time that had Gen in front of Tim Horton's on King Street, leaving for home.

Listen at about 3:45 minutes in: http://www.cbc.ca/informationmornin...e-want-help-locating-missing-saint-john-team/

Now, it was confirmed on Gen's Facebook page that the police had already spoken to the young man in the photos before they were released; and I also heard somewhere that he was co-operating with police and doing everything he could to help.

This is about the only link I can find to support at least some of that, but I do think it may have been mentioned in an article by the media.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Mary Cormier, 19, Saint John NB, 29 September 2013

I'll leave it up to you whether you want to believe anything with Facebook as a source, but I do have a tendency to accept most of what was said on Gen's page.

I know Gen's father said that the young man in the picture with Gen did not know her, but as at least one of those pictures is time stamped at 11:41:08--and it must be am because the mall is not opened that late in September--we never really had any reason to believe that it was 'Nick;' because the Nick Gen's mom mentioned was with her at around 3:30 pm.

Even besides all that, though; they confirmed the 4:30 pm sighting of Gen just beyond the Boaz Restaurant; so, she definitely left the uptown area alive and well.

I truly appreciate why we question this, even though I don't believe Gen knew the person who possibly harmed her.

She could have had her passport with her for something as simple as buying a package of cigarettes, or maybe something at the NBLCC store.

Or maybe she just carried it never knowing when she might need ID.

Or perhaps she did go out to the clubs in the uptown area. It's perfectly legal, and socially acceptable.

While there, she could have struck up a conversation with someone and mentioned something about walking home the next day--that's why I pray that they did seize any surveillance videos that exist. I know it's a long shot and would be a lot of work to look through maybe hours of tapes, but it could turn out to be worth it, imo.

Excellent point about the condition of the passport after being in the salt water for 34 days.

They are pretty tough, but I'm not sure what would be left of them after that.

 

[OldSteve]

Amazing reading...the time, work, investment you guys spend...Amazing! All for Genevieve.
I'm still here...hanging on the prayer train...Justice for Gen.

BBM - Most confusing. I'm stuck on it. Friend...then, stranger. Idk.
http://www.saintjohn.ca/en/home/cit...on.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I have never stood before a stranger... faced a stranger in Gen's manner.
I think she knew 'backpack guy' somehow, someway...and her demise quite possibly stemmed from her associations her very last Saturday night/Sunday. Idk.

Looking at those picture, just my observations:

Gen does not look happy.

In the first photo, that's that way I would picture a man looking around to see if anyone is watching them. It's like he's looking around because he's up to no-good.

In next two at counter - her moth is closed, she is not talking to him. Whatever is happening is all from him.

Notice the way she turns her head away from him without saying anything - as if ignoring him.. hands are show no gesture, down at side in last photo by counter.

I wish we had someone experienced in body language interpret at these!

 

[margarita25]

Partridge Island:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partridge_Island,_Saint_John_County

"Boat tours operated to the island from 1982 until 1995 when the island's small museum closed. There have been numerous books written about the island as well as video documentaries."


Hey, is there a way to look up private boats on the water at that those times / dates via satellite or some other means?

 

[margarita25]

Here's a fb page for Long Wharf showing some bars, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Long-Wharf/153606494670533

 

[margarita25]

So, someone could have parked under that overpass? Both Yeonhee and Gen both walked under that overpass? Thanks Truth Prevails and everyone else for all your awesome work.

 

[margarita25]

Not sure if this has been posted:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/nb/news-nouvelles/releases-communiques/12-04-27-105438-eng.htm

(4 and 1/2 hours away, June 2011, attempted abduction, Dalhousie, NB, with sketch)

http://goo.gl/maps/5U4cq

"On Wednesday, June 15, 2011, at around 2:15 p.m., a 20-year-old woman was sitting on the beach located off the Miller Road in Dalhousie. As she returned to her car, a man grabbed her and tried to force her into another nearby car. The woman was able to free herself and get away."

 

[GinaSeikwa]

Looking at those picture, just my observations:

Gen does not look happy.

In the first photo, that's that way I would picture a man looking around to see if anyone is watching them. It's like he's looking around because he's up to no-good.

In next two at counter - her moth is closed, she is not talking to him. Whatever is happening is all from him.

Notice the way she turns her head away from him without saying anything - as if ignoring him.. hands are show no gesture, down at side in last photo by counter.

I wish we had someone experienced in body language interpret at these!

Agree. Also where is her bag in all of these pictures? It might be me but I can't see a cross-body or any bag for that matter on her at all.

 

[jillybean51]

Agree. Also where is her bag in all of these pictures? It might be me but I can't see a cross-body or any bag for that matter on her at all.

Agreed.I can not think that this is a " random encounter with a stranger",as stated by Genns father on Facebook.If this is true,I think this guy looks like he is invading Genns personal space and she looks quite upset.Since Genn comes down the escalator at the same time,without a food bag,one can only assume that either they ate together and left together,or another huge coincidence that they ate separately and left at the same time.Could Genn have been followed on her walk home later by this guy?

 

[Truth Prevails]

Looking at those picture, just my observations:

Gen does not look happy.

In the first photo, that's that way I would picture a man looking around to see if anyone is watching them. It's like he's looking around because he's up to no-good.

In next two at counter - her moth is closed, she is not talking to him. Whatever is happening is all from him.

Notice the way she turns her head away from him without saying anything - as if ignoring him.. hands are show no gesture, down at side in last photo by counter.

I wish we had someone experienced in body language interpret at these!

That would be a treat to hear what the body language experts had to say.

It just looks to me like she hasn't been up too long. The pictures are such poor quality that it is hard to tell, I guess.

I think there could be quite a time delay between the pictures, so maybe that could account for the conversation not seeming to flow.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Partridge Island:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partridge_Island,_Saint_John_County

"Boat tours operated to the island from 1982 until 1995 when the island's small museum closed. There have been numerous books written about the island as well as video documentaries."


Hey, is there a way to look up private boats on the water at that those times / dates via satellite or some other means?

BBM - Satellite views sound very interesting, don't they? Gosh, wouldn't that be great if they exist somewhere.

The thing with the particular area where Gen went missing from is that it's really not common to see small boats around. I think the rapids from the Saint John River, combined with the tide from the Bay of Fundy is really too dangerous for the most of them.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Here's a fb page for Long Wharf showing some bars, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Long-Wharf/153606494670533

There are a lot of singles bars in the area circled in red, too. I could be dating myself a bit, but on a nice night we would go uptown and walk about from one to the other. We wouldn't necessarily limit ourselves to only one.

None of us ever mysteriously disappeared or managed to fall into the water.

http://goo.gl/maps/By5GU

Long wharf seems to have been developed a little bit since my time in the city, though; so I'm not much help with what is around there.

Notice Duke Street, which is where one of her friends possibly lived, is just below the popular area. (And it could be just as popular down that far now-a-days.)

 

[Truth Prevails]

So, someone could have parked under that overpass? Both Yeonhee and Gen both walked under that overpass? Thanks Truth Prevails and everyone else for all your awesome work.

And thank you, Margarita, for your valuable opinions.

We think someone could have taken their vehicle right onto the pathway and traveled some distance into it. The red circle on the screen shot below is the area of the path where Yeonhee would have entered and Genevieve would have exited. (Yeonhee on April 22, 2013; Gen on Sept. 29, 2013.)

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.as...lJTI1MjBGdW5lcmFsJTI1MjBIb21lfnBnLjF+cmFkLjgw

That link is frustrating--it won't take you to where I want it to go; but if you type in "Riverview Drive, Saint John, NB" you will get there.

To put it more into quick perspective, I'll re-add the following screen shot below. Yeonhee was coming from her west side home on Prince Street, and Genevieve was walking to her west side home from the uptown area.

From the above link, you can see that Riverview Drive opens right onto Prince St.

And then if you look up a little bit you can see the Reversing Falls Bridge where Gen had just crossed.

(I had to rotate the screen shot above to get the curve going in the same direction on both maps, so that's something to keep in mind if you use the Bing link.)

In the zoomed in version that I have screen shot above, you can see what appear to be barricades at the end of the path. A local poster told me that those barricades were removed at the time of Gen's disappearance due to construction of some sort in the area. It is unknown if they were in place during the time of Yeonhee's disappearance.

The blue circle marks the area circled with red in the screen shot above.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Not sure if this has been posted:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/nb/news-nouvelles/releases-communiques/12-04-27-105438-eng.htm

(4 and 1/2 hours away, June 2011, attempted abduction, Dalhousie, NB, with sketch)

http://goo.gl/maps/5U4cq

"On Wednesday, June 15, 2011, at around 2:15 p.m., a 20-year-old woman was sitting on the beach located off the Miller Road in Dalhousie. As she returned to her car, a man grabbed her and tried to force her into another nearby car. The woman was able to free herself and get away."

This is interesting. I wonder if they ever caught that character, or where he lives today.

Statistics show that the early attempts by serial killers are often foiled some how. Then they refine their pattern and get it right.