Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[Zella]

Just FYI, everyone, as the mods told us early on, we're not allowed to speculate on KM's and BS's sexual orientation/preferences.

I agree with @scrappinkat that there seems to have been a sibling bond between the 2 of them. KM was older and had a younger sibling. (That's been mentioned in MSM now: Hometown of Canadian Teenage Murder Suspects Grapples With Infamy). In my experience, people who are already an older sibling are more likely to transfer that aspect to other relationships, including friendships. Combine that with Bryer's dysfunctional homelife, and I think it makes a lot of sense that Kam would feel protective of Bryer and that Bryer would look up to Kam.

 

[scrappinkat]

The BC RCMP commits that once we have completed that review within the next few weeks, we will be providing the families with an update with respect to the totality of the investigations and then releasing the information publicly.

Do you think the family will receive the same info as the public, just a couple days before? Will it be the same report but with extra details? Or will the update given to the family be quite generic and they get the same info the public does when the report is put out?

IF the family receives a more detailed report than the public would the police (or can they even?) set restrictions on what they are allowed to disclose to media or anyone else from that report?

For me personally if I was one of the parents in this situation I think I would want absolutely every detail possible. But as a member of the general public I find it hard to believe that the police report will be detail specific (rightfully so btw).

 

[Abundance]

This is an interesting read.

Calvin White: Like many teens, Kam and Bryer were lost — and we should have noticed

 

[MassGuy]

Do you think the family will receive the same info as the public, just a couple days before? Will it be the same report but with extra details? Or will the update given to the family be quite generic and they get the same info the public does when the report is put out?

IF the family receives a more detailed report than the public would the police (or can they even?) set restrictions on what they are allowed to disclose to media or anyone else from that report?

For me personally if I was one of the parents in this situation I think I would want absolutely every detail possible. But as a member of the general public I find it hard to believe that the police report will be detail specific (rightfully so btw).

That’s what it sounds like; the information will be the same, but the family will be made aware of it first.

That’s how it would be done in the US though, and Canada might handle it differently.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

 

[KR72]

Just FYI, everyone, as the mods told us early on, we're not allowed to speculate on KM's and BS's sexual orientation/preferences.

I agree with @scrappinkat that there seems to have been a sibling bond between the 2 of them. KM was older and had a younger sibling. (That's been mentioned in MSM now: Hometown of Canadian Teenage Murder Suspects Grapples With Infamy) In my experience, people who are already an older sibling are more likely to transfer that aspect to other relationships, including friendships. Combine that with Bryer's dysfunctional homelife, and I think it makes a lot of sense that Kam would feel protective of Bryer and that Bryer would look up to Kam.

I agree, but Kam's not that much older than Bryer, right? I think only a few months if I'm remembering correctly, but I do agree that he may have felt protective of Bryer..I think they bonded over many things, common interests, victim-hood (real or perceived), being a couple of misfits (the alternative school they both attended at the least). As far as there being no mention of girlfriends, I don't know that that's so strange. Lots of teens these days don't date, plus these two may have given off creepy vibes to girls. Bryer certainly did, maybe Kam did as well?

 

[Zella]

I agree, but Kam's not that much older than Bryer, right? I think only a few months if I'm remembering correctly, but I do agree that he may have felt protective of Bryer..I think they bonded over many things, common interests, victim-hood (real or perceived), being a couple of misfits (the alternative school they both attended at the least). As far as there being no mention of girlfriends, I don't know that that's so strange. Lots of teens these days don't date, plus these two may have given off creepy vibes to girls. Bryer certainly did, maybe Kam did as well?

We don't know the exact age range, except they were both born in 2000, and Kam was already 19. Since nobody mentioned a recent birthday for him, I assume he was born earlier in the year and not in July, so he could be anywhere from several weeks to several months older. It's not the same as having a couple of years on someone, but I think it can still have an effect, especially since Kam was already an older brother. Like I said, in my experience, people who already are an older sibling often transfer that dynamic to friends.

I agree with you the lack of girlfriends isn't necessarily that odd, especially for that age group. Most of their friends, from what I can tell, were male. It wouldn't surprise me if they were awkward around girls, especially Bryer, and were out-of-their-element around them. That's true of a lot of boys their age.

 

[MistyWaters]

Where exactly would they be luring them to though?
Why would you lure someone in the opposite direction of your accomplice?
**Not YOU, just the wording.

ETA: If this were the case, they would have to ensure that the one person who is Not near the truck was the one to get picked up.

Lured to their death by offering a ride hitchhiker?

Given the two were accused of committing murder at two separate scenes, I wonder if there are any other potential victims who escaped death but didn’t realize it at the time. If there were, only police know the details and if so, I don’t blame them for not running to the media at this time, out of respect for the three victims. I’m remembering Millard and MS who test drove another truck prior to the murder of Tim and even though the truck owner was also alone, for whatever reason he wasn’t targeted.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't disagree with the sentiment that the two needed help and intervention as do many, many other teens and young people. I guess what my issue with the sympathy that these two are generating is that other young people in Canada aren't always offered the same.

Tina Fontaine, 15, was criminalized by Globe and Mail headlines and her bio family was heavily criticized by the public. I live in Winnipeg and heard firsthand the vile remarks. Winnipeg wasn't named Canada's most racist city for no reason.

Coulton Boushie at 22 wasn't much older than BS and KM wasn't portrayed sympathetically in the media.

Omar Khadr, who was 15 when he was detained, was demonized and portrayed as a terrorist mastermind even though he had been brainwashed and abused by his father since early childhood and was the only child soldier to be prosecuted by a military tribunal.

I certainly agree with your comments.

What’s also unusual about this case, the immediate family members who were caregivers haven’t spoke out, yet there’s a presumption that “nobody noticed”. But in reality we don’t know what or if interventions were attempted earlier in either of their lives.

 

[CanadianMade]

Lured to their death by offering a ride hitchhiker?

Given the two were accused of committing murder at two separate scenes, I wonder if there are any other potential victims who escaped death but didn’t realize it at the time. If there were, only police know the details and if so, I don’t blame them for not running to the media at this time, out of respect for the three victims. I’m remembering Millard and MS who test drove another truck prior to the murder of Tim and even though the truck owner was also alone, for whatever reason he wasn’t targeted.

What I was saying is, if they were hitchhiking in separate directions with one to lure someone to a certain spot and the other to drive the truck to them, they would have to be able to assure the one who was near the truck would Not be picked up. So, why would they Both be hitchhiking? Why wouldn't one hitch hike and the other already be waiting at whatever spot they would have had to already have picked out?

 

[otto]

What I was saying is, if they were hitchhiking in separate directions with one to lure someone to a certain spot and the other to drive the truck to them, they would have to be able to assure the one who was near the truck would Not be picked up. So, why would they Both be hitchhiking? Why wouldn't one hitch hike and the other already be waiting at whatever spot they would have had to already have picked out?

It's an interesting possibility that the suspects were at the Jade store hitchhiking in opposite directions, but it doesn't really match what we know.

The Jade Store is North of Dease Lake, the burned camper truck was found 50km South of Dease Lake, and the botanist was found 2 km South of the burned camper truck. They found their first victims on the side of the road, and they also found the third victim the same way.

 

[otto]

Opinion - but I think it is very unfortunate that free-spirit travellers, like this tourist couple and the Australian man killed in New Zealand, don't seem to understand the reasons that camping is not allowed at highway pullouts or on the side of the highway. The reasons are twofold. One is to protect the environment, and the other is to ensure the safety of travellers.

We've extensively discussed what parents and society needs to do to increase awareness of disturbed children, but what can be done to increase awareness in travellers to make responsible choices?

 

[MassGuy]

Good article about serial killers operating in teams, and the power dynamic involved (may be relevant here).

More than a fifth of serial killers operate in teams, most involving two offenders. One is invariably a dominant figure who looks for someone deeply insecure, often exploiting youth, neediness, mental instability, or low intelligence, according to Eric W. Hickey, a forensic psychologist and the author of Serial Murderers and Their Victims. In his analysis of more than 500 serial killer teams, each had one person who maintained psychological control.

The murderous duo relationship is characterized by a strong interdependence in which both parties need something critical from the other, explains Al Carlisle, Ph.D., a former prison psychologist and the author ofI'm Not Guilty: The Case of Ted Bundy. "The dominant person needs the follower's total loyalty in order to validate him- or herself," says Carlisle.

"The subservient follower needs the power and authority of the dominant person, so he or she attempts to become that person's shadow and to mirror the dominant person's beliefs and ethics. Each receives justification from the other."

Partners in Crime

 

[scrappinkat]

The Jade Store is North of Dease Lake, the burned camper truck was found 50km South of Dease Lake, and the botanist was found 2 km South of the burned camper truck.

Wonder why they were searching the bushy area alongside the road (I think between Dease Lake and site of burned Dodge) and what were they looking for. And what, if anything, was found. It does not seem to be the area where Leonard Dyck was found.

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1575...iMijunEZ_EQSyt1PzPO9h7KZQ7H2_2FpoR-cKiGQ4Rlo8

 

[scrappinkat]

Good article about serial killers operating in teams, and the power dynamic involved (may be relevant here).

More than a fifth of serial killers operate in teams, most involving two offenders. One is invariably a dominant figure who looks for someone deeply insecure, often exploiting youth, neediness, mental instability, or low intelligence, according to Eric W. Hickey, a forensic psychologist and the author of Serial Murderers and Their Victims. In his analysis of more than 500 serial killer teams, each had one person who maintained psychological control.

The murderous duo relationship is characterized by a strong interdependence in which both parties need something critical from the other, explains Al Carlisle, Ph.D., a former prison psychologist and the author ofI'm Not Guilty: The Case of Ted Bundy. "The dominant person needs the follower's total loyalty in order to validate him- or herself," says Carlisle.

"The subservient follower needs the power and authority of the dominant person, so he or she attempts to become that person's shadow and to mirror the dominant person's beliefs and ethics. Each receives justification from the other."

Partners in Crime

Years from now after there's been documentaries made and families have healed and have felt able to tell their stories - it will be interesting to see how well that captured the dynamics of the situation (or not).

 

[Zella]

@MassGuy, do you think spree killer duos would fall under that same power dynamic categorization as serial killer duos? I'm less familiar with spree killer duos, though the power dynamics is something I am familiar with and have driven myself crazy trying to apply to this case. LOL

I ask because I started out thinking they were a very clear-cut example of leader and follower, but now I find myself second-guessing that and wondering if they had some sort of oddball team dynamic. Or maybe they switched who was leader and follower. It's hard to get a read on either of these guys.

 

[Moriarty]

@MassGuy, do you think spree killer duos would fall under that same power dynamic categorization as serial killer duos? I'm less familiar with spree killer duos, though the power dynamics is something I am familiar with and have driven myself crazy trying to apply to this case. LOL

I ask because I started out thinking they were a very clear-cut example of leader and follower, but now I find myself second-guessing that and wondering if they had some sort of oddball team dynamic. Or maybe they switched who was leader and follower. It's hard to get a read on either of these guys.

I would love to hear this as well, and I suspect there is a similar dynamic.

As a note, I think LE dropped the spree killer definition after the FBI's big 2005 San Antonio conference.

 

[otto]

The suspects were charged with second degree murder Dr Leonard Dyck.

Murder in commission of offences

Culpable homicide is murder where a person causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit high treason or treason or an offence mentioned in section 52 (sabotage), 75 (piratical acts), 76 (hijacking an aircraft), 144 or subsection 145(1) or sections 146 to 148 (escape or rescue from prison or lawful custody), section 270 (assaulting a peace officer), section 271 (sexual assault), 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm), 273 (aggravated sexual assault), 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement), 279.1 (hostage taking), 343 (robbery), 348 (breaking and entering) or 433 or 434 (arson), whether or not the person means to cause death to any human being and whether or not he knows that death is likely to be caused to any human being, if

(a) he means to cause bodily harm for the purpose of

(i) facilitating the commission of the offence, or
(ii) facilitating his flight after committing or attempting to commit the offence,​

and the death ensues from the bodily harm;​

Criminal Code

 

[Zella]

I would love to hear this as well, and I suspect there is a similar dynamic.

As a note, I think LE dropped the spree killer definition after the FBI's big 2005 San Antonio conference.

So, do they just consider spree killers serial killers now?

 

[MassGuy]

@MassGuy, do you think spree killer duos would fall under that same power dynamic categorization as serial killer duos? I'm less familiar with spree killer duos, though the power dynamics is something I am familiar with and have driven myself crazy trying to apply to this case. LOL

I ask because I started out thinking they were a very clear-cut example of leader and follower, but now I find myself second-guessing that and wondering if they had some sort of oddball team dynamic. Or maybe they switched who was leader and follower. It's hard to get a read on either of these guys.

Yeah, I don’t think it matters.

Anytime you have two people who team up to commit crimes, there is going to be some sort of power dynamic.

That doesn’t mean that one is super dominant though, and the other is merely a follower.

It seems to be more subtle at times.

So there’s definitely a chance that there was an ebb and flow, and there wasn’t one person pushing this whole thing forward.

 

[SteveP]

Opinion - but I think it is very unfortunate that free-spirit travellers, like this tourist couple and the Australian man killed in New Zealand, don't seem to understand the reasons that camping is not allowed at highway pullouts or on the side of the highway. The reasons are twofold. One is to protect the environment, and the other is to ensure the safety of travellers.

We've extensively discussed what parents and society needs to do to increase awareness of disturbed children, but what can be done to increase awareness in travellers to make responsible choices?

I do not believe that Lucas and Chynna's plans ever included camping on the side of the highway. It is well known that their van had broken down, and it is equally well known that, although they were offered assistance, they declined, thinking that the van was just flooded, and they would be on their way after a while. The mechanically inclined person who stopped to check on them was also of that opinion. In hindsight, they were apparently wrong. Could they have been towed to a town 4 hours away, rather than spend the night on the side of the road? Probably so, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is, whether for economic reasons or for some other, they did not, and they paid with their lives, very harsh punishment for their transgression of camping by the side of the road.

As to making free-spirited travellers aware of the reasons that camping is not allowed, I am not sure if the inference is that it is primarily foreign travellers that need to be schooled, but many native Canadian posters here have made mention that it is indeed quite common to spend the night on the side of the highway in some of those areas, and a few even mentioned having safely done so. I do not believe that lack of awareness of the law is the problem, so much as disregard for it. JMO