Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[MassGuy]

I would love to hear this as well, and I suspect there is a similar dynamic.

As a note, I think LE dropped the spree killer definition after the FBI's big 2005 San Antonio conference.

Yeah, they seem to have done that out of simplicity.

They didn’t think that the distinction was helpful to local law enforcement agencies.

There’s a lot of differing opinions too, as far as spree killers and serial killers go.

Andrew Cunanan being a perfect example. Some say he was a serial killer, others say he was a spree killer.

 

[Zella]

Yeah, I don’t think it matters.

Anytime you have two people who team up to commit crimes, there is going to be some sort of power dynamic.

That doesn’t mean that one is super dominant though, and the other is merely a follower.

It seems to be more subtle at times.

So there’s definitely a chance that there was an ebb and flow, and there wasn’t one person pushing this whole thing forward.

Thank you! Most of the ones I'm familiar with, there was a very strong differentiation in who was in charge, but it makes sense that more subtle varieties also exist.

 

[Moriarty]

So, do they just consider spree killers serial killers now?

Yes, I believe so. I think the sticking point was the arbitrariness of the 'cooling off' period. I'd have to go back and find it all again, but I think the FBI dropped the spree killer designation and re-defined serial killer as the murder of two or more victims by the same offender or offenders at different times.

 

[Zella]

Yes, I believe so. I think the sticking point was the arbitrariness of the 'cooling off' period. I'd have to go back and find it all again, but I think the FBI dropped the spree killer designation and re-defined serial killer as the murder of two or more victims by the same offender or offenders at different times.

That makes sense! Thank you!

 

[CinNC]

A "mini-interview" with Chynna's brother, who says they don't know any more than the public right now. AND, that he reads a lot of online speculation, "...reading theories unverified by police about what role accomplices may have played or whether other missing person cases in the region could be linked".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...ay-never-know-1.5247816?__vfz=medium=sharebar

 

[Tilly23]

I wonder if BS and KM found participating in the world of games like Rust allowed them to succeed in ways they struggled with in the real world?

In my efforts to try to understand this game world a bit better, I came across this article from wired.com May 2014:
Why Online Games Make Players Act Like Psychopaths

It describes playing the online game Dayz as well as Rust. I found it an interesting read and thought others might find it interesting as well.

MOO - but I could picture a conversation between BS and KM after yet another "sucky" thing happened in their real world lives. One of them says, "Why can't real life be more like Rust?"

MOO

 

[otto]

I do not believe that Lucas and Chynna's plans included camping on the side of the highway. It is well known that the van had broken down, and it is equally well known that, although they were offered assistance, they declined, thinking that the van was just flooded, and they would be on their way after a while. The mechanically inclined person who stopped to check on them was also of that opinion. In hindsight, they were apparently wrong. Could they have been towed to a town 4 hours away, rather than spend the night on the side of the road? Probably so, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is they did not, and they paid with their lives, very harsh punishment for their transgression of camping by the side of the road.

As to making free-spirited travellers aware of the reasons that camping is not allowed, I am not sure if the inference is that it is primarily foreign travellers that need to be schooled, but many native Canadian posters here have made mention that it is indeed quite common to spend the night on the side of the highway in some of those areas, and a few even mentioned having safely done so. JMO

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

 

[SteveP]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

I don't know. Are there signs periodically placed alongside the highways? I don't really know what more you can do to raise awareness. In my state, there is a law that, anytime you have windshield wipers on, you must have headlights on. Those signs are randomly posted along with other highway signs all along the roadways, and yet, people still drive with no headlights in the rain, even now, when most cars have daytime running lights. I really do not think awareness is the problem, so much as is compliance, but, especially in the more remote areas, where some have said the closest Mounties are often hours away, who is going to enforce that statute?? Probably no one.

 

[Gina20]

Thank you for posting!

One thing that struck me throughout this whole thing was the absence of a plea from their families to come home. It was interesting to read Calvin White’s perspective.

Perhaps AS was correct that this would end only in death. If the police discovered a suicide message and told AS, it is likely they told the other family members, too.

 

[copkid]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

Unfortunately hitch hiking is sometimes the only option. It is my understanding that travel options to the northern regions of many provinces is minimal at best and sometimes not available at all. JMO


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/greyhound-western-canada-1.4884374

 

[CinNC]

Another interesting article in which the CEO of Port Alberni's Chamber of Commerce talks about the reason for a lack of response from Kam's family. Not sure why the link has such a ubiquitous description, but it should take you straight to the article.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

 

[otto]

I don't know. Are there signs periodically placed alongside the highways? I don't really know what more you can do to raise awareness. In my state, there is a law that, anytime you have windshield wipers on, you must have headlights on. Those signs are randomly posted along with other highway signs all along the roadways, and yet, people still drive with no headlights in the rain, even now, when most cars have daytime running lights. I really do not think awareness is the problem, so much as is compliance, but, especially in the more remote areas, where some have said the closest Mounties are often hours away, who is going to enforce that statute?? Probably no one.

It's true that law is only enforced when someone in authority sees the violation, which may be why some people choose to ignore law - perhaps thinking that if they can get away with it, why not. Some, but not all, pullouts have signage stating "no camping."

I'm wondering whether it is an awareness, or willful violation, problem. If it is awareness, improved messaging can be provided at borders and national parks. However, if is something different, then it is far more difficult to address.

For example, we know that hitch hiking and roadside camping stopped in Australia after the Belanglo State Forest murders in New South Wales, yet that knowledge did not transfer to the same practices in other countries. Where is the disconnect?

 

[Jen-Knee]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

I've personally have not seen people camping out on the side of highways in BC, although I'll see them in parking lots sometimes (usually Walmart parking lots). Hitch hikers I see plenty of in just my city alone, usually in the summer. We have five exits that lead to the highway and you'll usually see them there with big signs telling travelers where they are going. There are signs at the exits saying it is not allowed, but people ignore them I guess. I had a roommate about 20 years ago, when I was working at one of the provincial parks, who would pick them up and bring them to our house. It was terrifying for myself and our other roommates. I ended up buying a security bar for my bedroom door because she wouldn't stop doing it.

The government could put up all the signs and information possible and people will still do it. Too many people have the belief they it'll never happen to them.

 

[scrappinkat]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

In my area of south BC I see about 10-15 hitchhikers a year, mostly May to October. Majority are residents with the odd couple touring from another country.

I think the awareness is out there regarding pulloffs and camping etc but it seems to be one of those laws that people chose to willfully ignore despite the possible dangers, just like speeding or texting while driving.

 

[otto]

I've personally have not seen people camping out on the side of highways in BC, although I'll see them in parking lots sometimes (usually Walmart parking lots). Hitch hikers I see plenty of in just my city alone, usually in the summer. We have five exits that lead to the highway and you'll usually see them there with big signs telling travelers where they are going. There are signs at the exits saying it is not allowed, but people ignore them I guess. I had a roommate about 20 years ago, when I was working at one of the provincial parks, who would pick them up and bring them to our house. It was terrifying for myself and our other roommates. I ended up buying a security bar for my bedroom door because she wouldn't stop doing it.

The government could put up all the signs and information possible and people will still do it. Too many people have the belief they it'll never happen to them.

I suppose so. That's half the reason there are so may highway of tears murders - hitch hikers kept on doing it even though they knew there were multiple murders of hitch hikers in that area.

Maybe it's true that Canadians in Canada and Australians in Australia know better than to hitch hike and camp on highways, but they somehow throw that information out the window when travelling in foreign countries. It's a fine line between safety communication and fear mongering, but something is getting lost between the lines for tourists in Canada.

 

[sandbar]

Yeah, I don’t think it matters.

Anytime you have two people who team up to commit crimes, there is going to be some sort of power dynamic.

That doesn’t mean that one is super dominant though, and the other is merely a follower.

It seems to be more subtle at times.

So there’s definitely a chance that there was an ebb and flow, and there wasn’t one person pushing this whole thing forward.

Thanks for that article.

I wonder, because K&B knew each other "all their lives", and their apparently "strong bond", if their murderous dynamic might have been more like siblings who kill together?

The article talks about a sort of recruitment process. I'm guessing that didn't happen here; I can see them growing up together, growing delusional together, bouncing increasingly dramatic ideas off each other, etc...

 

[MistyWaters]

What I was saying is, if they were hitchhiking in separate directions with one to lure someone to a certain spot and the other to drive the truck to them, they would have to be able to assure the one who was near the truck would Not be picked up. So, why would they Both be hitchhiking? Why wouldn't one hitch hike and the other already be waiting at whatever spot they would have had to already have picked out?

If it’s true both were hitchhiking on opposite sides the the road, if they were intentionally attempting to lure a victim then its likely the truck was parked close by, accessible to either of them....because otherwise comes the question how did they get there and why would they be hitchhiking different directions?

It’d be very unusual for two people travelling opposite directions to pick up separate hitchhikers at exactly the same time but with two directions of traffic, mathematically that increases the odds of someone stopping for one of them to half the time. Maybe to them this was similar to a game of Dare, who gets picked up first, who’s the aggressor and who follows, we just don’t know. I’m merely speculating,

But please, let’s not go down the road that B didn’t know how to drive. Unless he had a severe physical handicap, which he didn’t, anybody his age is able to control a steering wheel and push a break or gas peddle. In fact I see kids 1/2 the age of do it all the time at go-cart tracks or by controlling simulated cars at amusement parks.

 

[10ofRods]

I wonder if BS and KM found participating in the world of games like Rust allowed them to succeed in ways they struggled with in the real world?

In my efforts to try to understand this game world a bit better, I came across this article from wired.com May 2014:
Why Online Games Make Players Act Like Psychopaths

It describes playing the online game Dayz as well as Rust. I found it an interesting read and thought others might find it interesting as well.

MOO - but I could picture a conversation between BS and KM after yet another "sucky" thing happened in their real world lives. One of them says, "Why can't real life be more like Rust?"

MOO

This was a great read. I'll be using it in class soon.

The part that stood out to me was the idea that these two games (one of them Rust) assumes that the world is filled with crazy, psychopathic people. Evil and danger are the norm. To a child, then adolescent, then young adult who is trying to figure the world out, this is a really different worldview. Different, anyway, from what many of us grew up with.

As an older person who reads way too much true crime and has been involved in far too many forensic investigations, it's natural that I have lost my youthful innocence and am a little paranoid. Lots of police are in a similar position. But even so, I'm only a little paranoid. I don't think most people I run into are evil.

To think that some teens are now in a world where everyone is a threat, where everyone is a psychopath, is very sad. I think almost all the young mass shooters fell into this worldview. Paranoia becomes normal, in that view. If a parent or other person in a kid's life is paranoid, it must be really hard to shake off the notion that the world is generally evil and cruel, to be guarded against and even exploded or shot at.

 

[sprucetip]

Lured to their death by offering a ride hitchhiker?

Given the two were accused of committing murder at two separate scenes, I wonder if there are any other potential victims who escaped death but didn’t realize it at the time. If there were, only police know the details and if so, I don’t blame them for not running to the media at this time, out of respect for the three victims. I’m remembering Millard and MS who test drove another truck prior to the murder of Tim and even though the truck owner was also alone, for whatever reason he wasn’t targeted.

They didn't murder him because the guy was huge and talked about being in the army! These killers, as K&B are cowards. They prey on those who are weak, they couldn't handle taking on a big, tough guy. That's probably part of why the Cold Lake guy lived.

But good question, I wonder who else they ran into and were thinking about killing, if anyone. And if they talked about it ahead of time, or did they make the decision in the moment? Did they just get sick of killing people or lose their interest in it? So many questions.

 

[CanadianMade]

If it’s true both were hitchhiking on opposite sides the the road, if they were intentionally attempting to lure a victim then its likely the truck was parked close by, accessible to either of them....because otherwise comes the question how did they get there and why would they be hitchhiking different directions?

It’d be very unusual for two people travelling opposite directions to pick up separate hitchhikers at exactly the same time but with two directions of traffic, mathematically that increases the odds of someone stopping for one of them to half the time. Maybe to them this was similar to a game of Dare, who gets picked up first, who’s the aggressor and who follows, we just don’t know. I’m merely speculating,

But please, let’s not go down the road that B didn’t know how to drive. Unless he had a severe physical handicap, which he didn’t, anybody his age is able to control a steering wheel and push a break or gas peddle. In fact I see kids 1/2 the age of do it all the time at go-cart tracks or by controlling simulated cars at amusement parks.

Where did I mention anything about him not driving?