Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[sprucetip]

Opinion - but I think it is very unfortunate that free-spirit travellers, like this tourist couple and the Australian man killed in New Zealand, don't seem to understand the reasons that camping is not allowed at highway pullouts or on the side of the highway. The reasons are twofold. One is to protect the environment, and the other is to ensure the safety of travellers.

We've extensively discussed what parents and society needs to do to increase awareness of disturbed children, but what can be done to increase awareness in travellers to make responsible choices?

Camping is allowed on pullouts here in the Yukon. There are only a few places where it's not allowed and there is a sign saying so. I believe it's the same in BC. With long distances between campgrounds, especially on the Alaska highway, it makes sense that it's not discouraged.

Besides, it's not inherently dangerous. In a pullout anyways. On the side of the hwy, it's definitely more dangerous for the obvious traffic reasons.

 

[missy1974]

I certainly agree with your comments.

What’s also unusual about this case, the immediate family members who were caregivers haven’t spoke out, yet there’s a presumption that “nobody noticed”. But in reality we don’t know what or if interventions were attempted earlier in either of their lives.

This is a really good point. I have raised teenagers, we can try to encourage them to do things, we can give them options, we can make them appointments or whatever, but we can't make them do anything. So who knows, maybe someone did try. JMO

 

[otto]

Camping is allowed on pullouts here in the Yukon. There are only a few places where it's not allowed and there is a sign saying so. I believe it's the same in BC. With long distances between campgrounds, especially on the Alaska highway, it makes sense that it's not discouraged.

Besides, it's not inherently dangerous. In a pullout anyways. On the side of the hwy, it's definitely more dangerous for the obvious traffic reasons.

Way back at the beginning I linked to BC highway regulations stating that disabled vehicles must be removed from BC highways "forthwith" for the safety of others. That is a fact for all BC highways. I have also linked to Parks Canada information about camping in campgrounds, that highways and pullouts are not campgrounds.

The reasons are based on safety and environmental concerns. Canada is a beautiful clean country, but it cannot remain clean if the highways become campsite toilets.

 

[sprucetip]

I do not believe that Lucas and Chynna's plans ever included camping on the side of the highway. It is well known that their van had broken down, and it is equally well known that, although they were offered assistance, they declined, thinking that the van was just flooded, and they would be on their way after a while. The mechanically inclined person who stopped to check on them was also of that opinion. In hindsight, they were apparently wrong. Could they have been towed to a town 4 hours away, rather than spend the night on the side of the road? Probably so, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is, whether for economic reasons or for some other, they did not, and they paid with their lives, very harsh punishment for their transgression of camping by the side of the road.

As to making free-spirited travellers aware of the reasons that camping is not allowed, I am not sure if the inference is that it is primarily foreign travellers that need to be schooled, but many native Canadian posters here have made mention that it is indeed quite common to spend the night on the side of the highway in some of those areas, and a few even mentioned having safely done so. I do not believe that lack of awareness of the law is the problem, so much as disregard for it. JMO

I agree, they didn't plan on it. Just made the best of the circumstances. They could have caught a ride 20km to the Hot Springs Lodge and maybe were going to do that the next day. I'm one of those who has slept in many pullouts on this hwy, broken down numerous times, hitchhiked, helped others who were broken down, etc. I've never felt unsafe. I probably would have done the exact same thing if I was in their position.

 

[10ofRods]

This is a really good point. I have raised teenagers, we can try to encourage them to do things, we can give them options, we can make them appointments or whatever, but we can't make them do anything. So who knows, maybe someone did try. JMO

Perhaps kicking them out of their respective homes was the attempt to make them do something (and they did - they left). You definitely can get teens out of your house, if you want to.

Also, you can control their spending in so many ways. Phones and Steam games cost money. New games cost money. No parent has to pay for those things. And no custodial person (grandmothers included) have to permit those things to be used in the house. Impossible for them to play those games at the library, btw (computers aren't good enough).

So there's a lot that parents can do, if willing, to reshape behavior. Of course, if you're already scared of the kid(s), that's a bit different.

Lots of my students are under a "you go to school and getting passing grades or you're out of here" policy from their parents. Many of them go homeless, temporarily or permanently, due to this. They learn to cope (and in many cases, decide to stay in school and end up taking that minimum wage job they refused the year before).

Oddly, so many students who are more or less on their own...do very very well in school, even with a past track record that's poor, once the limits are set and once they realize what it's really like out there.

There are also students who must attend their psychiatric sessions and take their meds, or they are going to be out of the parental home. It often takes a brush with the law, though, for them to really get this.

It's hard, because the years from about 17-25 are the peak years for onset of schizophrenia, schizoaffective, major depressive disorder, and bipolar. It's hard for family members to see it, sometimes. Schizotypal disorder can be and is masked by video games (and in some inpatient units where I've worked, video games are used as today's panacea for schizophrenics - television used to do the trick).

 

[sprucetip]

Way back at the beginning I linked to BC highway regulations stating that disabled vehicles must be removed from BC highways "forthwith" for the safety of others. That is a fact for all BC highways. I have also linked to Parks Canada information about camping in campgrounds, that highways and pullouts are not campgrounds.

The reasons are based on safety and environmental concerns. Canada is a beautiful clean country, but it cannot remain clean if the highways become campsite toilets.

Well that's great in theory but it doesn't happen like that and is not enforced regularly in an area that is hours from the nearest RCMP station. We have similar legislation and I've seen vehicles sit on the side of the hwy for a week or more. And this is within one hour of the RCMP. So you can link to all the regs you want but it doesn't reflect reality. It's not a priority for police.

These areas do not become toilets, most of the pullouts have garbages and are pretty clean for the most part. BC in particular has garbages all over the place, I'm always surprised at how many there are at roadside pullouts. Many also have outhouses. In the pullout by my place, which over the summer probably has on average of 300-500 people stay overnight, I've never seen garbage on the ground. It has two outhouses. So again, reality is much different than what you see on paper.

 

[sprucetip]

We don't know who is claiming that camping is common and popular on Canadian highways and pullouts. We've also read that BC highways are full of hitch hikers - a rather surprising claim given the Highway of Tears hitch hiking murders.

I don't really believe claims that either of the above is a common and acceptable practice, but, if it is, what can be done to increase awareness that it is unsafe and a violation of BC highway and Parks Canada regulations?

I'm claiming it as someone who has traveled up and down the Alaska highway for 20 years. I can drive home from work tonight, a one hour drive down the AK hwy and take pictures of almost 20 vehicles parked in pullouts for the night.

People still hitchhike, regardless of the murders. The victims on the Highway of Tears were also young, mostly aboriginal women. So perhaps this fact makes some people feel more comfortable hitchhiking if they are not in that demographic. Also, I'm sure you know, the Alaska highway is a 14hr drive from that highway. And there is no string of murders over decades on the Alaska highway. There's many other highways in BC, which is a huge area. They are thousands of km's apart. So it's actually not that surprising that people still hitchhike in BC.

 

[sandbar]

Can a 1986 blue Chevy van flood while it's moving?

 

[1987]

Can a 1986 blue Chevy van flood while it's moving?

yes. the float in the carb can stick.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree, they didn't plan on it. Just made the best of the circumstances. They could have caught a ride 20km to the Hot Springs Lodge and maybe were going to do that the next day. I'm one of those who has slept in many pullouts on this hwy, broken down numerous times, hitchhiked, helped others who were broken down, etc. I've never felt unsafe. I probably would have done the exact same thing if I was in their position.

If the vehicle still wouldn’t start after hours waiting for an overheated engine to cool, the two might’ve been planning to seek out vehicle repairs the following day. Any mechanical difficulty only one or two days into a road trip through northern B.C., the Yukon, destination Alaska poses significant challenges which I’m sure they didn’t expect.

So I think they might’ve spent the night in that spot while thinking about their options. We don’t yet know if the van was in running order or not but it really wouldn’t surprise me if B&K had their eyes on stealing it too, just for a lark. Maybe their initial intention was some stupid idea of setting up a hidden camp somewhere far down an old abandoned logging road, a means to remove themselves from everyday life.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

It's an interesting possibility that the suspects were at the Jade store hitchhiking in opposite directions, but it doesn't really match what we know.

The Jade Store is North of Dease Lake, the burned camper truck was found 50km South of Dease Lake, and the botanist was found 2 km South of the burned camper truck. They found their first victims on the side of the road, and they also found the third victim the same way.

Do we know if Leonard Dyck died where he was found? Has anyone said anything about the possibility of being murdered elsewhere and his body placed there to be found.

 

[sandbar]

yes. the float in the carb can stick.

Thanks, is that better or worse than vapour lock? Vapor lock - Wikipedia

And in either case the engine would stall, and the driver could maneuver to the side of the road?

 

[Kubirai]

For example, we know that hitch hiking and roadside camping stopped in Australia after the Belanglo State Forest murders in New South Wales, yet that knowledge did not transfer to the same practices in other countries. Where is the disconnect?

Australian Sean McKinnon and Canadian fiance were sleeping in their rented camper van, on a popular surfing lookout south of Auckland.

Some guy came, shot McKinnon, and took off with the camper. The camper and his body was found abandoned some distance away.

 

[1987]

the van likely due to age had rust in the gas tank, rust particles can interfere with the float on the carb, tapping will sometimes resolve the issue temporary, but not always.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do we know if Leonard Dyck died where he was found? Has anyone said anything about the possibility of being murdered elsewhere and his body placed there to be found.

No, details about his death have not been released.

 

[1987]

Thanks, is that better or worse than vapour lock? Vapor lock - Wikipedia

And in either case the engine would stall, and the driver could maneuver to the side of the road?

power stearing and power brakes would be gone, but still work just require more effort.

 

[sandbar]

No, details about his death have not been released.

I haven't seen much about the Prof. I'd like to know when he left for his trip. I know a colleague of his said he'd changed plans, and he went further north to Stikine.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m unable to find a link to a photo at the moment but did anyone notice the electronic billboard set up early on by the RCMP asking for dashcam also mentioned Mucho Lake? Google tells me Mucho Lake Prov Park is 66 km south of Laird Hotsprings Prov Park and so the murder site was 46km beyond that, but reported as only 20km south of Laird HS.

I wonder what’s the interest in Mucho Lake? Possibly L&C stayed there the night of the 14th?

ETA - here




Final tragic twist in Canada highway murders

 

[otto]

Well that's great in theory but it doesn't happen like that and is not enforced regularly in an area that is hours from the nearest RCMP station. We have similar legislation and I've seen vehicles sit on the side of the hwy for a week or more. And this is within one hour of the RCMP. So you can link to all the regs you want but it doesn't reflect reality. It's not a priority for police.

These areas do not become toilets, most of the pullouts have garbages and are pretty clean for the most part. BC in particular has garbages all over the place, I'm always surprised at how many there are at roadside pullouts. Many also have outhouses. In the pullout by my place, which over the summer probably has on average of 300-500 people stay overnight, I've never seen garbage on the ground. It has two outhouses. So again, reality is much different than what you see on paper.

That's true, vehicles in the wrong place are more or less un-enforced. That may contribute to people assuming that it's okay, but I suspect that young travellers with limited funds also choose to avoid the cost of campgrounds.

I'm curious how the messaging can be changed to encourage people to make safer choices. No one wants to read about another double murder like that of Chynna and Lucas.

 

[copkid]

There has been much discussion surrounding the link the RCMP made between the 2 crime scenes.
It is one of the questions I am most curious about.
While waiting for the RCMP report all we can do is speculate, so speculate I have.

For quite some, I have felt that the link was the RAM truck camper.

This may be a stretch for those that know their vehicles well, I am not one of those people.

Is it possible that KM/BS detached their camper from their truck at one of those, illegal to camp but not monitored, remote pullouts on the Alaskan Hwy? They drive up the highway possibly looking for a spot to fire their guns, they encounter the van with Lucas & Chynna in it and what happens from there we will likely never know for sure, all we know is the tragic end.

Is it possible that the vehicle with the stripe on the hood and the lights on the roof described as a Jeep Cherokee by road worker Alandra Hull was actually KM/BS truck WITHOUT the camper? Their RAM did have lights on the roof, and it was two-tone, and I believe Ms. Hull mentioned the colour grey.

Is it possible that the man in the early released sketch was actually Kam?

Ms. Hull recalled it not feeling like a good situation, so it sounds like this sighting was quite quick, it likely was dark or dusk, eyewitnesses are often not 100% accurate with their descriptions. Ms. Hull was recollecting events from the previous night, and this now involved a murdered couple, she was likely quite shaken.

Could this be why Assistant Commissioner Hackett was so quick to respond "NO" when asked about the man in the sketch? Did the RCMP already know it was Kam and his truck sans camper that Alandra Hull had seen?
Alandra was a road worker driving the highways possibly she or another person recalled seeing the camper in a remote pullout WITHOUT a truck?

Once the burnt truck/camper was located South of Dease Lake with yet another dead body close by 2 quickly became 1?

Just my random thoughts while we wait for the official report.
PURE SPECULATION & MOO