Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[Jan424]

Plus not to read into it too much, but Kam is walking in front of Bryer in the surveillance footage on both the 17th and 21st.

SBM
I only am aware of the Co-op video footage of Kam walking in front of Bryer. Which other one was he doing this also.... how in the world did I miss this?!

 

[Jan424]

Not sure...strange. When he refers to the hotel room, my first thought was that he meant the room where he met with the RCMP, but that's not right since the five deaths hadn't happened whenever he met up with whomever Vicki is (as I read it, anyway).

Anyway, some of the comments on YouTube are out there to say the least. Blame is assigned to everyone - the court system, the RCMP, feminists, Hollywood, leftists, and of course single mothers. Yes, all of those things and plus the Prime Minister are responsible for two adult men killing three people, running halfway across Canada and then offing themselves in the bush, not the two men who actually committed the crimes.

As far as who is responsible, of course it's BS and KM, equally imo. I don't assign blame to any of the parents or relatives, dysfunctional backgrounds or stable backgrounds. People come from all kinds of circumstances and don't run around killing innocent strangers. BS had a difficult background, so what? Many people come from the same or worse. He chose NOT to improve his lot and KM chose the same fate. The victims in this case had no say in the matter. It's sad all around.

TRUTH... plain and simple. IMO

 

[NJSleuth91]

NOT SAYING IT IS THE CASE HERE. But sociopaths are made. What if one of them was made a sociopath by any circumstances. Isn't there some need to find out to see if things can be changed so as to not create more sociopaths?

It's not about finding whose fault it is. Bryer and Kam are dead. They both are responsible. But the insistance to keep our head under the ground when it comes to teenager who become killers will not help stop it. I don't think it just happens. Or maybe it does. But we need to find out. JMO

100% agreed. I don't think anything in life "just happens."

As for psychopaths or sociopaths, that's a complicated issue and an issue still being researched. It's also a spectrum, not a clearly defined thing. I've done a lot of reading on it due to this case, and:

a) The research indicates these traits generally arise due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

b) Being a psychopath or sociopath doesn't necessarily mean one will be violent. In fact a significant percentage of psychopaths and sociopaths are never violent and do not break the law (what is called "pro-social"). Of course, they may not be the nicest people on the planet, but they're also not gunning down innocent strangers or anything. Interestingly, it seems from the research I've read that pro-social behavior can be encouraged in people with antisocial traits in much the same way it can be encouraged in most other people.

Now, this topic is of interest here because, based on interviews of people who knew them and the extensive police investigation, Kam and Bryer both seemed to be more or less pro-social up until the last few weeks of their lives. So what caused them to suddenly and abruptly change? I hope that can be figured out because it could give us some clues on warning signs and interventions.

c) Also, not all murderers, even of random strangers, are necessarily psychopaths or sociopaths. This one is controversial but, one need only look at all of human history to see that pretty much all of us are capable of committing atrocities under the wrong circumstances.

Without more information on their backgrounds I don't think we can definitively say at this point where things went wrong and why. But maybe someday we will.

Sure enough, its need an inquest to find out?

The reaction to hide everything about them, not talk about it and try to erase everything reminds me of that school were they started to have one suicide after the other. At first the principal tried to ignore it hoping it would go away. But it got worse. They then started investigating and finding solutions and it got better.

My point is, and I hope I am wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a copycat in the next year or so. Pretending it didn't happened won't help, I'm afraid. JMO

Again, totally agreed. And we can see a pattern of this happening in society with certain things being swept under the rug and forgotten.

I hope there won't be copycats but I wouldn't be surprised at all either. There are already fan pages for these two on social media. It even said it right in the report -- these teen mass killers are heavily inspired by each other. I would bet money these guys read about previous attacks and I would also bet they were specifically inspired by Columbine -- not in terms of logistics but in terms of general attitudes and dynamics -- pretty much all teen mass killers are inspired by Columbine and especially with these two being a killer duo.

SBM
I only am aware of the Co-op video footage of Kam walking in front of Bryer. Which other one was he doing this also.... how in the world did I miss this?!

From the 17th, where they're making purchases in a store...they're not walking because it is a still image of them at the checkout, but Kam is in front and Bryer is standing behind him.

 

[poupetty77]

100% agreed. I don't think anything in life "just happens."

As for psychopaths or sociopaths, that's a complicated issue and an issue still being researched. It's also a spectrum, not a clearly defined thing. I've done a lot of reading on it due to this case, and:

a) The research indicates these traits generally arise due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

b) Being a psychopath or sociopath doesn't necessarily mean one will be violent. In fact a significant percentage of psychopaths and sociopaths are never violent and do not break the law (what is called "pro-social"). Of course, they may not be the nicest people on the planet, but they're also not gunning down innocent strangers or anything. Interestingly, it seems from the research I've read that pro-social behavior can be encouraged in people with antisocial traits in much the same way it can be encouraged in most other people.

Now, this topic is of interest here because, based on interviews of people who knew them and the extensive police investigation, Kam and Bryer both seemed to be more or less pro-social up until the last few weeks of their lives. So what caused them to suddenly and abruptly change? I hope that can be figured out because it could give us some clues on warning signs and interventions.

c) Also, not all murderers, even of random strangers, are necessarily psychopaths or sociopaths. This one is controversial but, one need only look at all of human history to see that pretty much all of us are capable of committing atrocities under the wrong circumstances.

Without more information on their backgrounds I don't think we can definitively say at this point where things went wrong and why. But maybe someday we will.



Again, totally agreed. And we can see a pattern of this happening in society with certain things being swept under the rug and forgotten.

I hope there won't be copycats but I wouldn't be surprised at all either. There are already fan pages for these two on social media. It even said it right in the report -- these teen mass killers are heavily inspired by each other. I would bet money these guys read about previous attacks and I would also bet they were specifically inspired by Columbine -- not in terms of logistics but in terms of general attitudes and dynamics -- pretty much all teen mass killers are inspired by Columbine and especially with these two being a killer duo.



From the 17th, where they're making purchases in a store...they're not walking because it is a still image of them at the checkout, but Kam is in front and Bryer is standing behind him.

I agree with Columbine, it reminds me of it, I was reading about it earlier. I am just surprised there weren't any notes or videos left to explain anything, nor any sign of planning. But there might be and RCMP is just not saying to avoid copycats.

I think it is an older man in front of Bryer at the store when he has his cowboy hat.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Exactly, we have no idea of the dynamic of Kam’s family life. None whatsoever. There may have been behaviors he exhibited that were concerning... or not. Point being we do not have any information. That being said, I do not blame the McLeods for keeping their mouths shut. Not much good will come out of them speaking out (for them), one way or another. Plus, as I’ve said before, they have more important issues they are dealing with in the wake of this catastrophe. MOO

I do think it says something that no former classmate, or former friend, or neighbor, or party-goer, or online gamer, or anybody at all came up with any disturbing incident about Kam. Does that mean nothing ever happened? Of course not. But you do have to assume that if he was snorting Ritalin off a replica Nazi knife at a party we would have heard about it.

 

[katydid23]

I do think it says something that no former classmate, or former friend, or neighbor, or party-goer, or online gamer, or anybody at all came up with any disturbing incident about Kam. Does that mean nothing ever happened? Of course not. But you do have to assume that if he was snorting Ritalin off a replica Nazi knife at a party we would have heard about it.

True. But his closest and bestest friend did do things like that. And Kam didnt seem repelled by Bryer's actions. He was pretty supportive of him and chose to spend a lot of time with his 'crazy' friend. That is revealing in itself, imo.

 

[Jan424]

From the 17th, where they're making purchases in a store...they're not walking because it is a still image of them at the checkout, but Kam is in front and Bryer is standing behind him.

SBM
Oh okay that one. I thought I missed one. But could be since Kam looks to be paying, Bryer is just standing aside looking on? Who knows.

 

[poupetty77]

I do think it says something that no former classmate, or former friend, or neighbor, or party-goer, or online gamer, or anybody at all came up with any disturbing incident about Kam. Does that mean nothing ever happened? Of course not. But you do have to assume that if he was snorting Ritalin off a replica Nazi knife at a party we would have heard about it.

I don't get people saying that. I'm not trying to argue, but something was wrong with Kam, regardless of the fact he acted it publicly or not. You don't just follow a friend in a killing trip like that.

Unless they bought a gun for defence, got drunk and kill L and C, then from there thought lost for lost, let's try to escape. But how likely is it? Very unlikely, IMO.

So Kam and Bryer decided to kill together. I don't think there is one person in my life, not my mother, not my best friend, not the hottest guy on earth, who wouldn't freak me out, make my skin wanna crawl away from me and make me call the police to stop them if they mention killing someone, just for fun. Or he was suicidal and wanted to take Bryer with him so he treated him with a few killing (this is so upsetting to even write) to convince him to leave this earth with him. But to get to that kind of conversation, something must be wrong with you. JMO

 

[Jan424]

I do think it says something that no former classmate, or former friend, or neighbor, or party-goer, or online gamer, or anybody at all came up with any disturbing incident about Kam. Does that mean nothing ever happened? Of course not. But you do have to assume that if he was snorting Ritalin off a replica Nazi knife at a party we would have heard about it.

Yes definitely.... but I don’t think Kam going on a human shooting spree came out of the blue. The desire and/or capability had to have been lurking inside him for quite some time. We have no idea if anything went on behind closed doors and he just hid it well otherwise. MOO

 

[SovereignSnake]

From the 17th, where they're making purchases in a store...they're not walking because it is a still image of them at the checkout, but Kam is in front and Bryer is standing behind him.

That surveillance photo really helped solidify that Kam was the financier for the majority of this trip. I think he paid for just about everything. Bryer almost looks like he's standing their with "dad" at checkout while Kam pays. I don't necessarily think they had a "daddy" (for lack of a better word) kind of relationship dynamic. I think love aside, Bryer had an idealistic hold over Kam. Bryer clearly did not have a lot of power in terms of physical possessions and money like Kam but I believe there was some mental power. Perhaps this is what balanced their relationship? The codependency. I don't know why, but I get this impression Kam was easily manipulated and could even be a total pushover. Like you could tell him to do something or ask him to do something and he would do it on command. I think Kam wanted someone to want him or need him rather. I bet it absolutely destroyed him to let people down too. I think there was an incredible amount of loneliness between the two of them. (But then as we've all said, that seems to be the way they wanted it or they simply didn't know any different?) Perhaps Kam just wanted someone to depend on him, like it gave him purpose? He probably enjoyed being the caretaker, yet I sense lots of people took advantage of his kindness or shyness throughout his life. Bryer was the mouthpiece and Kam was physical support, Bryer's rock as I referred to him the other day. But then as you've said, Kam did have a great deal of control in this relationship and I totally agree. However, I wonder if he had a lack of self esteem or confidence which made it easy to keep him under foot? Makes me wonder if his power in the relationship was ever fully realized? Doesn't Kam give you the vibe like if you met him at a bar or somewhere in public he would be deer in the headlights and you'd have to carry the conversation for awhile until he gets comfortable and then he opens up and suddenly is a fountain of conversation?

 

[Esprite]

His son chose to murder innocent people, living in their vans.

Yes, and I'm no fan, but he's still not responsible for the murders that his son committed.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

That surveillance photo really helped solidify that Kam was the financier for the majority of this trip. I think he paid for just about everything. Bryer almost looks like he's standing their with "dad" at checkout while Kam pays. I don't necessarily think they had a "daddy" (for lack of a better word) kind of relationship dynamic. I think love aside, Bryer had an idealistic hold over Kam. Bryer clearly did not have a lot of power in terms of physical possessions and money like Kam but I believe there was some mental power. Perhaps this is what balanced their relationship? The codependency. I don't know why, but I get this impression Kam was easily manipulated and could even be a total pushover. Like you could tell him to do something or ask him to do something and he would do it on command. I think Kam wanted someone to want him or need him rather. I bet it absolutely destroyed him to let people down too. I think there was an incredible amount of loneliness between the two of them. (But then as we've all said, that seems to be the way they wanted it or they simply didn't know any different?) Perhaps Kam just wanted someone to depend on him, like it gave him purpose? He probably enjoyed being the caretaker, yet I sense lots of people took advantage of his kindness or shyness throughout his life. Bryer was the mouthpiece and Kam was physical support, Bryer's rock as I referred to him the other day. But then as you've said, Kam did have a great deal of control in this relationship and I totally agree. However, I wonder if he had a lack of self esteem or confidence which made it easy to keep him under foot? Makes me wonder if his power in the relationship was ever fully realized? Doesn't Kam give you the vibe like if you met him at a bar or somewhere in public he would be deer in the headlights and you'd have to carry the conversation for awhile until he gets comfortable and then he opens up and suddenly is a fountain of conversation?

Actually that makes total sense. I get the feeling he probably was very kind, and considerate, and that could be why he suddenly snapped. People took and took, and one day he finally just had enough of being taken advantage of.

 

[Jan424]

That surveillance photo really helped solidify that Kam was the financier for the majority of this trip. I think he paid for just about everything. Bryer almost looks like he's standing their with "dad" at checkout while Kam pays. I don't necessarily think they had a "daddy" (for lack of a better word) kind of relationship dynamic. I think love aside, Bryer had an idealistic hold over Kam. Bryer clearly did not have a lot of power in terms of physical possessions and money like Kam but I believe there was some mental power. Perhaps this is what balanced their relationship? The codependency. I don't know why, but I get this impression Kam was easily manipulated and could even be a total pushover. Like you could tell him to do something or ask him to do something and he would do it on command. I think Kam wanted someone to want him or need him rather. I bet it absolutely destroyed him to let people down too. I think there was an incredible amount of loneliness between the two of them. (But then as we've all said, that seems to be the way they wanted it or they simply didn't know any different?) Perhaps Kam just wanted someone to depend on him, like it gave him purpose? He probably enjoyed being the caretaker, yet I sense lots of people took advantage of his kindness or shyness throughout his life. Bryer was the mouthpiece and Kam was physical support, Bryer's rock as I referred to him the other day. But then as you've said, Kam did have a great deal of control in this relationship and I totally agree. However, I wonder if he had a lack of self esteem or confidence which made it easy to keep him under foot?

Quite a lot of interesting thoughts here, @SovereignSnake . I can see what you mean about this image as well, and so much can be read into it. I do believe Kam and Bryer each got what they needed and wanted from their relationship. It may have been a warped and distorted codependency, but it worked for them, didn’t it. Right up to the awful end. JMO

 

[NJSleuth91]

I agree with Columbine, it reminds me of it, I was reading about it earlier.

There was an article I was reading about how Columbine basically created a "paradigm" for mass shootings.

How School Shootings Spread
"Then came Columbine. The sociologist Ralph Larkin argues that Harris and Klebold laid down the “cultural script” for the next generation of shooters. They had a Web site. They made home movies starring themselves as hit men. They wrote lengthy manifestos. They recorded their “basement tapes.” Their motivations were spelled out with grandiose specificity: Harris said he wanted to “kick-start a revolution.” Larkin looked at the twelve major school shootings in the United States in the eight years after Columbine, and he found that in eight of those subsequent cases the shooters made explicit reference to Harris and Klebold. Of the eleven school shootings outside the United States between 1999 and 2007, Larkin says six were plainly versions of Columbine; of the eleven cases of thwarted shootings in the same period, Larkin says all were Columbine-inspired."

That almost makes me wonder whether Kam and Bryer were trying to create a new "paradigm," whether consciously or unconsciously, given the hints the RCMP dropped about the contents of the videos -- the militia content, the desire for notoriety, and the exhorting others to commit violence. Because there hasn't been another case quite like this one.

Hopefully they didn't succeed in creating a new paradigm....

I am just surprised there weren't any notes or videos left to explain anything, nor any sign of planning. But there might be and RCMP is just not saying to avoid copycats.

Wouldn't be surprised TBH.

I think it is an older man in front of Bryer at the store when he has his cowboy hat.

I was talking about the other surveillance images (someone else posted it).

I do think it says something that no former classmate, or former friend, or neighbor, or party-goer, or online gamer, or anybody at all came up with any disturbing incident about Kam. Does that mean nothing ever happened? Of course not. But you do have to assume that if he was snorting Ritalin off a replica Nazi knife at a party we would have heard about it.

Just because he wasn't outwardly acting weird, doesn't mean he didn't have dark and violent thoughts and didn't share those things with Bryer. It also doesn't mean he wasn't the more dominant one in their friendship. It just means he kept it more hidden from the outside world. He wouldn't have been "inseparable" best friends for 14 years with someone who openly praised Hitler and posted things like "guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets," if he didn't relate to that on some level.

I don't get people saying that. I'm not trying to argue, but something was wrong with Kam, regardless of the fact he acted it publicly or not. You don't just follow a friend in a killing trip like that.

Unless they bought a gun for defence, got drunk and kill L and C, then from there thought lost for lost, let's try to escape. But how likely is it? Very unlikely, IMO.

So Kam and Bryer decided to kill together. I don't think there is one person in my life, not my mother, not my best friend, not the hottest guy on earth, who wouldn't freak me out, make my skin wanna crawl away from me and make me call the police to stop them if they mention killing someone, just for fun. Or he was suicidal and wanted to take Bryer with him so he treated him with a few killing (this is so upsetting to even write) to convince him to leave this earth with him. But to get to that kind of conversation, something must be wrong with you. JMO

Yes definitely.... but I don’t think Kam going on a human shooting spree came out of the blue. The desire and/or capability had to have been lurking inside him for quite some time. We have no idea if anything went on behind closed doors and he just hid it well otherwise. MOO

Exactly.

That surveillance photo really helped solidify that Kam was the financier for the majority of this trip. I think he paid for just about everything. Bryer almost looks like he's standing their with "dad" at checkout while Kam pays. I don't necessarily think they had a "daddy" (for lack of a better word) kind of relationship dynamic. I think love aside, Bryer had an idealistic hold over Kam. Bryer clearly did not have a lot of power in terms of physical possessions and money like Kam but I believe there was some mental power. Perhaps this is what balanced their relationship? The codependency. I don't know why, but I get this impression Kam was easily manipulated and could even be a total pushover. Like you could tell him to do something or ask him to do something and he would do it on command. I think Kam wanted someone to want him or need him rather. I bet it absolutely destroyed him to let people down too. I think there was an incredible amount of loneliness between the two of them. (But then as we've all said, that seems to be the way they wanted it or they simply didn't know any different?) Perhaps Kam just wanted someone to depend on him, like it gave him purpose? He probably enjoyed being the caretaker, yet I sense lots of people took advantage of his kindness or shyness throughout his life. Bryer was the mouthpiece and Kam was physical support, Bryer's rock as I referred to him the other day. But then as you've said, Kam did have a great deal of control in this relationship and I totally agree.

Yes but if Kam actually had been to northern BC and the Yukon several times (and I hope that information is confirmed at some point because it tells us a lot), that indicates it was probably his plan to begin with. Not that Bryer recruited him into his militia or whatever. The militia was probably something they both came up with. Just because Kam was more quiet about it, doesn't mean it wasn't his idea too.

If it had been a different type of plan, like for example, shooting up some public venue in Port Alberni, then I would say maybe Bryer could have been the leader. But the fact that this was a plan that was entirely contingent on Kam's role -- as I said, Kam could have done this whole thing by himself if he wanted to, whereas Bryer couldn't -- indicates to me that he had a lot of, possibly the majority of, input into the planning and wasn't just blindly going along with it.

I do agree with you that Bryer was more of the "hype man" as you said earlier, which is probably why he seems to be doing most of the talking on the videos from the descriptions. But your description of Kam as a "caretaker" -- if that was the case, who knows -- indicates a more dominant role by definition. And I think the assisted suicide thing was probably an extension of that role.

Also the fact that they made this whole "militia" thing indicates to me that they were both looking for some kind of purpose and to feel like they could depend on each other. I think that whole thing went both ways.

However, I wonder if he had a lack of self esteem or confidence which made it easy to keep him under foot? Makes me wonder if his power in the relationship was ever fully realized? Doesn't Kam give you the vibe like if you met him at a bar or somewhere in public he would be deer in the headlights and you'd have to carry the conversation for awhile until he gets comfortable and then he opens up and suddenly is a fountain of conversation?

From the descriptions from people who knew them and witnesses, they were both like that before all this. Which is not an uncommon personality type for both spree killers and thrill killers.

 

[musicaljoke]

Yes, and I'm no fan, but he's still not responsible for the murders that his son committed.

Oh, of course not. I didn't intend for anyone to make that connection. Rather, the thought came to me that although the father claims there was a loving bond between himself and his son, there are doubts in my mind. Did BS choose people who were sleeping in their vehicles because of some kind of rage against his father who lived that way, his father who had a "home" that had no place for his son? BS had no mercy for others who lived in their vehicles. They were his target twice .. or rather three times.

 

[poupetty77]

Actually that makes total sense. I get the feeling he probably was very kind, and considerate, and that could be why he suddenly snapped. People took and took, and one day he finally just had enough of being taken advantage of.

He didn't suddenly snap and start shooting people because he happened to have a gun in his hands. He bought a gun, planned a trip and went to kill people he never met. There is no signs that anybody took avantage of him or didn't show him love, considering the amount of people who came forward to defend him. JMO

I had a bad feeling about Kam since the beginning if I am honest, based on absolutely nothing. I see Bryer as nicer than he has been described and more of the kind one who people would take advantage of and hurt then be surprised that he shows emotions. But at this point, it's just projection, because I (we) know nothing.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Oh, of course not. I didn't intend for anyone to make that connection. Rather, the thought came to me that although the father claims there was a loving bond between himself and his son, there are doubts in my mind. Did BS choose people who were sleeping in their vehicles because of some kind of rage against his father who lived that way, his father who had a "home" that had no place for his son? BS had no mercy for others who lived in their vehicles. They were his target twice .. or rather three times.

Wow I never even thought of that! Interesting idea.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that they did this right before the book was supposed to come out.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

He didn't suddenly snap and start shooting people because he happened to have a gun in his hands. He bought a gun, planned a trip and went to kill people he never met. There is no signs that anybody took avantage of him or didn't show him love, considering the amount of people who came forward to defend him. JMO

I had a bad feeling against Kam since the beginning if I am honest, based on absolutely nothing. I see Bryer as nicer than he has been described and more of the kind one who people would take advantage of and hurt then be surprised that he shows emotions. But at this point, it's just projection, because I (we) know nothing.

Obviously there was some element of planning, but it could have been the day before they left that he came up with this plan. Just everything I have seen, read etc. has told me that he snapped, and he was feeling angry at the world.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Obviously there was some element of planning, but it could have been the day before they left that he came up with this plan. Just everything I have seen, read etc. has told me that he snapped, and he was feeling angry at the world.

My feeling on it...this plan was a hypothetical that they had for a while. They decided to turn it from a hypothetical to an actuality within 2-3 days of when they left. That's why they left so abruptly, didn't get the second gun until the day they left (and who knows how soon beforehand they got the first one), and why there was no evidence of planning or "leakage" of their plans to others as far as we know.

 

[poupetty77]

My feeling on it...this plan was a hypothetical that they had for a while. They decided to turn it from a hypothetical to an actuality within 2-3 days of when they left. That's why they left so abruptly, didn't get the second gun until the day they left (and who knows how soon beforehand they got the first one), and why there was no evidence of planning or "leakage" of their plans to others as far as we know.

I'd say that talking about it was the first step of the plan, IMO, even if it was just hypothetical. I've never talked about hurting/murdering someone with any of my friends. Ever.

But, yes, I'm with you, I'd love to know if something happened that made them decide to stop talking and start acting.