Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #23

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However, it doesn't change the fact that unstable, neglectful, and abusive childhoods produce damaged human beings. It's a predictable development, during development.

B's home life, when looking at his final acts, is unfortunately not surprising. Typical.

AS asked where Bryer's safety net was. The irony.

Yep. When a parent has schizophrenia there is a 10% chance the child will have it as well. But it appears to be environmental as well. Add in his chaotic upbringing and the odds go way up.

Both these two were at a perfect age for schizophrenia to manifest.
 
Without appearing to be a bit insensitive to your rather curt arguments, may I quote your own post? ..

Suicide is typical in that sort of upbringing. Lashing out is typical in that sort of upbringing. The development or exacerbation of mental illness is typical in that sort of upbringing. ( posted by DarkSkink) .


I don't know who is arguing against their own argument, but I am certain it isn't me!..

However, I am now somewhat bored with the subject matter, so I bid you farewell.
You forgot to quote the part describing what type of upbringing, which puts it in proper context.

If you wish to believe the "causation" is a sense of entitlement after working at Wal Mart for 5 weeks, then I won't bore you with nonsensical things like childhood trauma and the lifelong effects it can have.

It's all perspective. Being beaten is nothing compared to being beaten twice or three times so what's the big deal?
 
You forgot to quote the part describing what type of upbringing, which puts it in proper context.

If you wish to believe the "causation" is a sense of entitlement after working at Wal Mart for 5 weeks, then I won't bore you with nonsensical things like childhood trauma and the lifelong effects it can have.

It's all perspective. Being beaten is nothing compared to being beaten twice or three times so what's the big deal?
what trauma? there is no evidence, no narrative of trauma suffered by either Bryer or Kam. What beating? no one says Bryer was beaten. No one claims Kam was beaten, not even once, much less twice or three times. Even AS, who's animosity against Bryers mother knows no boundaries has never said she beat Bryer.

Making up stuff about Kam and Bryer is hardly conducive to rational discourse. Of course, it is tempting to make up stories about their ' long suffering life ' that entitled them to then strut on out and shoot and kill people, because it satisfies some atavistic need for 'reason' and 'answers' , etc. 'ohh they suffered, so they had to shoot people'... …

It is difficult to accept that psychopathy exists, also, especially in such nice looking clean cut young chaps as Kam and Bryer, looking happy as larks, having a good time , playing warfare in the woods, and dinking around at Walmart.

Then, you have to line all that up with 3 mutilated bodies , one a woman on the side of a Canadian highway, shot, and in one case, beaten and burned as well.
 
You forgot to quote the part describing what type of upbringing, which puts it in proper context.

If you wish to believe the "causation" is a sense of entitlement after working at Wal Mart for 5 weeks, then I won't bore you with nonsensical things like childhood trauma and the lifelong effects it can have.

It's all perspective. Being beaten is nothing compared to being beaten twice or three times so what's the big deal?
No one really knows what upbringing either of them had. No one knows at all what upbringing Kam McLeod had. Not a skerrick of a hint of his upbringing is available, and the only source of comment of Bryer's upbringing is his non custodial father, who has an axe to grind with every known authority organization in Canada. A neighbor of Bryers said his life was a awful but does that mean he was separated from his father, and his mother, ( even though that may have been his choice, to live with Gran ) .. ? no one knows.

It is really stretching it to say they had a horrible life. Beatings, etc. No such of a thing has even been hinted at.

A sense of entitlement doesn't need a cause. It is a part of psychopathy, and is entirely unrelated to actual circumstances that the psychopath faces in day to day life. It is, for want of a better form of words, and I am simplifying it for some clarity, an inborne thing. It comes with the territory, it is not a direct result, or even an indirect result of any cause, any issue, any event. It just is.
 
I will add that it's interesting to me that Bryer absolutely didn't want to go back to Port Alberni. I have long felt the nature of his friendship with Kam is quite overstated. Seems that 2 years ago Bryer had no problem living away from Kam.
 
what trauma? there is no evidence, no narrative of trauma suffered by either Bryer or Kam. What beating? no one says Bryer was beaten. No one claims Kam was beaten, not even once, much less twice or three times. Even AS, who's animosity against Bryers mother knows no boundaries has never said she beat Bryer.

Making up stuff about Kam and Bryer is hardly conducive to rational discourse. Of course, it is tempting to make up stories about their ' long suffering life ' that entitled them to then strut on out and shoot and kill people, because it satisfies some atavistic need for 'reason' and 'answers' , etc. 'ohh they suffered, so they had to shoot people'... …

It is difficult to accept that psychopathy exists, also, especially in such nice looking clean cut young chaps as Kam and Bryer, looking happy as larks, having a good time , playing warfare in the woods, and dinking around at Walmart.

Then, you have to line all that up with 3 mutilated bodies , one a woman on the side of a Canadian highway, shot, and in one case, beaten and burned as well.
Who said they were beaten? That's that weird habit of arguing against your own arguments showing itself again.

I used "beating" as a simple to understand example of childhood trauma where the "perspective" argument becomes a fallacy. There is always something worse that can happen. It doesn't invalidate your trauma, nor does it lessen the potential damage it does mentally, especially in your developmental years.

Neglect. Splitting up the family structure. Parental alienation. Supervised or irregular visitation. All of these are possible very seriously traumatic events during childhood development, depending on how it is handled or mishandled.

It's not difficult to accept psychopathy exists. It does. However, it is too easy to think anytime someone deviates from societal norms is simply a psychopath or entitled, rather than a troubled human being acting out.

So two psychopaths just happen to be the same age, just happen to find each other in the same small town and go hunting humans after working at Walmart? Maybe in a 70's era movie script, but humans are much more complex than that.
 
No one really knows what upbringing either of them had. No one knows at all what upbringing Kam McLeod had. Not a skerrick of a hint of his upbringing is available, and the only source of comment of Bryer's upbringing is his non custodial father, who has an axe to grind with every known authority organization in Canada. A neighbor of Bryers said his life was a awful but does that mean he was separated from his father, and his mother, ( even though that may have been his choice, to live with Gran ) .. ? no one knows.

It is really stretching it to say they had a horrible life. Beatings, etc. No such of a thing has even been hinted at.

A sense of entitlement doesn't need a cause. It is a part of psychopathy, and is entirely unrelated to actual circumstances that the psychopath faces in day to day life. It is, for want of a better form of words, and I am simplifying it for some clarity, an inborne thing. It comes with the territory, it is not a direct result, or even an indirect result of any cause, any issue, any event. It just is.
Perhaps if you watched some of the interviews where AS describes special needs, developmental issues, bullying etc. it could offer some insight. Perhaps reading some of the legal history and the allegations on both sides could offer some insight. Perhaps researching hereditary mental illnesses would offer some insight.

Nope. Entitled psychopaths. I have a friend of a friend of a friend who went through the same thing and they turned out okay.
 
I will add that it's interesting to me that Bryer absolutely didn't want to go back to Port Alberni. I have long felt the nature of his friendship with Kam is quite overstated. Seems that 2 years ago Bryer had no problem living away from Kam.
Well, at the risk of making an understatement, they did go on a killing spree together and ended their own lives together, so there is some sort of intense bond that formed. Perhaps not a relationship based on dependency, but empowerment.
 
edited by me for clarity

It's not difficult to accept psychopathy exists. It does. However, it is too easy to think anytime someone deviates from societal norms is simply a psychopath or entitled, rather than a troubled human being acting out.

So two psychopaths just happen to be the same age, just happen to find each other in the same small town and go hunting humans after working at Walmart? Maybe in a 70's era movie script, but humans are much more complex than that.


so the alternative is two young men, one with no family trauma as known, and one with an average trauma, ( broken marriage, but it may have been safer than a whole one , considering the parents) and living with Gran who enjoyed his company, both the same age, in a small country town, decide together to end their 'troubles' by hunting humans and then themselves on a road trip clear across Canada? .. well. maybe the Coens would look at that and maybe they would say, nah.. too ordinary.
 
Well, at the risk of making an understatement, they did go on a killing spree together and ended their own lives together, so there is some sort of intense bond that formed. Perhaps not a relationship based on dependency, but empowerment.

The narrative presented here has been one of lifelong friends who would never leave each other.

Seems that's not entirely accurate...
 
Well, at the risk of making an understatement, they did go on a killing spree together and ended their own lives together, so there is some sort of intense bond that formed. Perhaps not a relationship based on dependency, but empowerment.
they certainly recognized each other for what they were. They didn't appear to surprise each other, either, as , after murdering Miss Deese and Mr Fowler, were they put off by each other ? Not a bit of it. Onwards to the next random victim, only this time, they spent a bit more time at it, having perhaps talked about it over the 4 days and 500 klms between killings. What they wished they had done, what they intended to do to the next one, and so on. What psychopaths talk about to each other.

May be they even talked about how relieved they felt, they had made someone pay for their ' troubled and traumatic' childhood... Do you think they might have ? .. however the relief didn't last long. Even after Prof Dycks murder, when it came down to plans they hadn't given up on scoring more random victims.. that's what they told us, and it is rational to believe that's what they meant , in the light of what they actually did.
 
Can this even be considered a killing spree? They stopped at three and didn't kill another person for atleast four days.
 
Can this even be considered a killing spree? They stopped at three and didn't kill another person for atleast four days.
That doesn't matter. They still killed 3 people in about 4 days--that's about as textbook as a murder spree gets. They're one over the minimum and they didn't seem to have a cooling off period. That's also not counting the person in the middle who got away. So 3 attempts on 4 potential victims in 4 days and 3 actual victims.

This is straight from the FBI:
The general definition of spree murder is two or more murders committed by an offender or offenders, without a cooling-off period. According to the definition, the lack of a cooling-off period marks the difference between a spree murder and a serial murder.
Serial Murder — FBI
 
Perhaps if you watched some of the interviews where AS describes special needs, developmental issues, bullying etc. it could offer some insight. Perhaps reading some of the legal history and the allegations on both sides could offer some insight. Perhaps researching hereditary mental illnesses would offer some insight.

Nope. Entitled psychopaths. I have a friend of a friend of a friend who went through the same thing and they turned out okay.
AS is almost a professional victim himself. Him describing Bryer's developmental issues and the bullying is really exposing how clever Bryer was in getting Dad on side. What better way to garner sympathy from AS than to claim to be bullied!.. it must have been like honey to AS's ears.


As an aside, it is worth asking just how bad their life was in comparison to all the other 19 yr olds in Port Alberni. I would bet their are many young men, and possibly more young women in PA who's story would make Kam and Bryers look like a teddy bears picnic , in comparison.
 
so the alternative is two young men, one with no family trauma as known, and one with an average trauma, ( broken marriage, but it may have been safer than a whole one , considering the parents) and living with Gran who enjoyed his company, both the same age, in a small country town, decide together to end their 'troubles' by hunting humans and then themselves on a road trip clear across Canada? .. well. maybe the Coens would look at that and maybe they would say, nah.. too ordinary.
I wouldn't describe it as an average breakup. The legal record itself paints a disturbing picture, let alone AS's book, testimony and current conduct. I found the Mother's letter odd as well.

I also found the lack of comment from K's parents unsettling. There was no attempt, or no public attempt anyway, to talk them down or out of it.
 
I wouldn't describe it as an average breakup. The legal record itself paints a disturbing picture, let alone AS's book, testimony and current conduct. I found the Mother's letter odd as well.

I also found the lack of comment from K's parents unsettling. There was no attempt, or no public attempt anyway, to talk them down or out of it.
the legal record paints a disturbing picture of AS. The book, the testimony and current conduct merely underlines the problem. I didn't find the mothers letter odd , at all. I felt that it was the most, and the best she could do under the circumstances, and I had an odd feeling that she, of all people had seen the real face of Bryer at some stage and was preparing for the very worst of denouement:... she knew what was coming.

The lack of comment from the McLeods is the wisest move of all. I doubt that will change any time soon.
 
they certainly recognized each other for what they were. They didn't appear to surprise each other, either, as , after murdering Miss Deese and Mr Fowler, were they put off by each other ? Not a bit of it. Onwards to the next random victim, only this time, they spent a bit more time at it, having perhaps talked about it over the 4 days and 500 klms between killings. What they wished they had done, what they intended to do to the next one, and so on. What psychopaths talk about to each other.

May be they even talked about how relieved they felt, they had made someone pay for their ' troubled and traumatic' childhood... Do you think they might have ? .. however the relief didn't last long. Even after Prof Dycks murder, when it came down to plans they hadn't given up on scoring more random victims.. that's what they told us, and it is rational to believe that's what they meant , in the light of what they actually did.
I can well imagine they discussed taking their "war games" out of the forest and into reality. That was likely the purpose of the road trip.

They stopped killing, even though they had plenty of opportunity. One could argue the third was out of necessity to acquire a working vehicle. The fact they stopped killing is more an argument against psychopathy, rather than for it.
 
I freely admit to not perhaps being up to speed on the dating habits of young Canadian men, but from the 18 and 19 yr olds I know here in Sydney , NSW, they are crazed with dating girls and going to clubs and bars and events and raves and start off with this stuff around 14, 15, … I don't know any who want to 'play warfare' in the woods with a dinky air rifle. ..

So .. were Kam and Bryer normal Canadian guys in this respect? ..
 
Interesting points in this article. Bolding by me.

When good kids go bad

Adolescence is a time that peer relationships become the central focus for our teens. Psychologists report that bad behaviours in one teen often come from peer influence, such as:

when one peer self-harms, others follow that example
when one peer begins vomiting after eating, her friends follow
when one peer binges on alcohol over the weekend, friends are influenced
when one peer is violent, others can be affected as well
 
I can well imagine they discussed taking their "war games" out of the forest and into reality. That was likely the purpose of the road trip.

They stopped killing, even though they had plenty of opportunity. One could argue the third was out of necessity to acquire a working vehicle. The fact they stopped killing is more an argument against psychopathy, rather than for it.
How so an argument against psychopathy? . the fact that they didn't kill after Prof Dyck could be due to any number of factors.. until the bodies were found I was convinced it was lack of operative ammo. .. but after that, I figured, they didn't get the same opportunity to surprise people. People were wary and on the lookout and the last thing Kam and Bryer wanted was any sort of shoulder to shoulder confrontation. Not for them, great warriors that they thought themselves to be.

It surely was not a matter of regret or remorse, and we know this because they said so. They had plans to kill more, , so obviously, what was stopping that plan coming to fruition was the precise opportunity that had presented itself in the matter of Deese and Fowler, and Dyck. Entirely unaware, unarmed, ,.. in other words, easy prey.
 
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