Found Deceased Canada - Mariam Makhniashvili, 17, Toronto, 14 Sept 2009 - #8

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Sorry I think may be wrong about the bus route. In any case of course it is not hard to get to York Mills. Not that I think that happened.

I live in Toronto for a quite some time and it never occurred to me that there is a bus route north on Yonge. I always thought that only subway is available if you want to travel on TTC north of Eglinton. I guess Mariam would have to know that there was a bus going north, board that bus, get off at York Mills, walk up the street and jump. I just cannot see that happening.

What I am trying to say here: yes it is not hard to get to York Mills to someone who knows exactly where they are heading. Did Mariam have this kind of knowledge of city streets and how to get there.
 
I live in Toronto for a quite some time and it never occurred to me that there is a bus route north on Yonge. I always thought that only subway is available if you want to travel on TTC north of Eglinton. I guess Mariam would have to know that there was a bus going north, board that bus, get off at York Mills, walk up the street and jump. I just cannot see that happening.

What I am trying to say here: yes it is not hard to get to York Mills to someone who knows exactly where they are heading. Did Mariam have this kind of knowledge of city streets and how to get there.

Outcast I totally agree with you. I was just thinking outside the (my own) box for the moment and considering the suicide idea. I don't think Mariam committed suicide.

(Pace the recent poster who said there is no evidence against suicide there is massive evidence against it I think. There has to be things we don't know but are known here in Toronto o/w 1. why would Langer post the bail and do all that research on the Scribe page which may just be a taste for all we know. It just makes no sense unless more is known. 2. Why would a famous famous lawyer I talked to say he would take the case? Why would he come directly on the phone? I am trying to get a lawyer now for some real estate business and can't get them to call me back!! There is something they know (the eminent lawyer) through back channels).

Now to be honest I can't really say I have a clear sense of Mariam and what she would or not do. Obviously her family knew her best in fact I would think here in Canada her brother knew her best (?) actually that simple fact hadn't quite occured to me till this minute. Though it does seem they kept so closely in touch via phone with parents quite remarkable really.

Now looking at the slender video evidence of Mariam on the W5 show I was struck by the fact that she seemed less shy than unanimously she is o/w portrayed as being. There is that short clip where she is possibly in her room or a room in Tblisi someone I think the videographer says something like "don't go like that" to her - she walks towards the camera SO IT SEEMS TO ME BUT I DON'T KNOW pretty cockily.

Ditto in the airport footage she seems mildly bemused at the attention and this is probably going too far but even slightly superior to it. It is stange but she seems very confident to me. Yes there is the evidence by parents and the teachers who met her of her inordinate shyness.

I don't see the shy girl that everyone talks about. But they would know not me - but it leaves me feeling I don't understand Mariam that well (but why
would I?)

Her Mom is adamant that she had no money for bus travel was studious which seems to be true for sure and just would not take off for adventure or some bizarre suicide plan.

I don't know how much freedom they had in Georgia. The grandmother and the aunt on W5 seem absolutely great to me (again slender evidence) both very lovely and impressive.

The only thing I wonder about is their interest in theatre and music I think even seasons tickets of some type. With her friend two young girls would have got attention. In her sketchbook there is a drawing of a longer haired possibly artistic young man who SEEMS to me to me the young man in a family photo of some kind. Kind of dashing. Is he a relative? The kind of relative say a cousin of kind you could have a bit of a crush on? Quite a bit older than Mariam for sure. I still wonder about her relation to the poets and the famous highjacker who was killed - I left a link at some point above. This might have made her interesting to people any link like this. But maybe this is all off the mark.

Too much conjecture here I know. I remember on the thread earlier someone brought up the issue of her being gay cause of the rainbow belt. And perhaps because something about someone at the school that Outcast maybe it is ok to say you have a bad feeling about.

On the earlier thread someone wisely said Mariam was private so it is tough to get at anything like that one way or the other. She would probably be annoyed that we try or even are trying to understand her I don't know.

In a word I personally cannot say I know what Mariam would do or wouldn't do. It is POSSIBLE that she loved her parents wanted to please them played the role of the dutiful daughter best she could BUT had developed some other aspect to her personality in Georgia PURE CONJECTURE but possibly some contact with an older male. With artistic intelligent older men the line between lechery and love and delight in young people is a pretty fine one so I just don't know.

Again her family knew her well and probably would think everything I just wrote is implausible and absurd.

What is the point to this? Just saying my feeling is Mariam had a few more arrows in her quiver that we allow for. POSSIBLY a slightly more mysterious person than we know.
 
Chorley 8, thanks for the great post, the quiver and arrow reference reminded me of this tragic athlete's go big or go home attitude.
Did Mariam share that opinion, what " curve " might she have failed to negotiate?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/15/nodar-kumaritashvili-dead_n_462927.html
bbm.
"TBILISI, Georgia — The father of the Georgian luger killed at the Vancouver Olympics said Monday his son worried the track was too dangerous, but insisted on competing because he had come to the games to try to win.

"He told me: I will either win or die," David Kumaritashvili told The Associated Press. "But that was youthful bravado, he couldn't be seriously talking about death."

The father, in an interview at his home in the snow-covered slopes of Georgia's top ski resort, said he had spoken to his son, Nodar, shortly before the fatal training run Friday.

"He told me: Dad, I really fear that curve,"
 
Chorley 8 - you really took this to your heart. I thank you for that. I am not giving up on Mariam too. But there is really not much I can do for her, except for keeping this thread alive. I agree with you there are many discrepancies, many facts lost in translation, assumptions, even prejudice, labeling, profiling, you name it here, that prevents us from thinking clearly. What if Mariam was not an immigrant, what if she was just an average Canadian girl who went missing? Would police so quickly conclude that she possibly took her own life upon finding her remains or they would try to figure out what really happened?

From the very beginning of this thread, back in 2009 I argued that her family is incorrectly portrayed in media. I thought at that time, and I think just the same today that we did not do enough to find her. I remember when PA ( FHCI principal ) invited her to come back home and everything will be forgiven ( she even said that she was looking for her on her own! ). So, she did not think that Mariam took her own life at that time. She thought that she was just a typical teenager who had some disagreement at home.

All this being said, I believe that Mariam came from very strong, loving, educated family. We owe her to find out what really happened. I am sure one day the truth will see the light of the day.
 
2008 Georgia–Russia crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And teenage disaffection, the unthinkable etc.

Everyday is like Sunday • Morrissey - YouTube

"Back to the bench where your (her) clothes (etc) were stolen."

Adding: by etc. I mean DNA.......maybe.

Again this video reminded me of how gloomy you can feel as a young person and how false things seem. I do think Mariam was in a bit of a tailspin who can blame her - Tblisi to Toronto could be like going from Paris to Des Moines. I just don't think the circumstances fit for suicide.
 
To think of general features of where Mariam lived that might be relevant I would include:

1. Urban density this both makes an abduction improbable and increases the suspect list to beyond what can be dealt with

2. The fact that there were business including talent agencies in her actual apt. Earlier on this thread I linked to the fairly famous actor from Ireland who was interviewed in media he talked about how his apt. (so it seemed) was searched when really his partner had the talent agency there not an apt.. Strange. How did he get to the one interviewed. He talked about how cooperative he was and how we welcomed LE. Sort of strange. X has nothing to hide the story went.

3. Lots of photographers living around there including one of my own personal "persons of interest" a fashion photographer. Just occured to me the Princ. taking photos essentially of the students we talked about was she sharing them

4. A big one for me is the beltline trail. I do not know if her family was familiar with with it. Surely yes? It runs right behind her apt. and I think for example with some buildings there is access (for example from 22 Shallmar?). Maram was not seen on cameras on Eg. So where did she go? If she walked across the school grounds she could walk down the hill by the tennis courts and double back on the beltline trail if she had forgotten something or had a rendevouz. I got the impression her mother thought she had left something behind that day. It also goes over past Yonge below where the backpack was found.

5. By the way there might be a link between someone at 22 Shallmar and the building where Nicole Morin went missing - very different ages though. And between someone living in the building at Shallmar and Eg and the Christine Prince homicide. All of this probably coincidence.

6. Outcast: you mentioned the small pathway leading off Mayfair into the school I believe it is the MUSIC ROOM. Now if Mariam was told to meet someone say a teacher inside very few people would have seen her. Though probably that door is kept locked o/w surely the student bands would be interrupted all the time. I don't know.

7. I have no idea why but I am a bit obsessed with the bench by the street in the little park on Shallmar. And the little park in front of her school.
 
Two ideas re Mariam..........

1. That LE is still looking into it (I doubt that). Though they have her Dad in prison I am sure they will try to get at him a bit just to see if he knows anything useful. But I doubt there is anything to know though I do know from messages that some people still suspect him.

2 To research the case for a book or article. This is the only way in I think. Then you could at least try to interview people etc. I think that would bring results

3. What does anyone who still reads this think?

Couple of other ideas:

1. Take Vakthang seriously forget the delusional thing I doubt he was.......everything he says is worth considering what is there to lose?

2. Try to figure out even logically why there was such an international aspect...the political guy who befriended VM on FB the guy who contacted me from Agent Presse France who had written on biological weapons experiments by AQ in Georgia - and anyway how would latter know who I was?
 
Delurking to reply to this. I've been following the Jeffrey Boucher case, but MM's case had special interest for me because I live very close to where she was found and often walk north on Yonge, and under the 401. When I heard how they thought she had jumped from that overpass into the golf course property, I scouted it out myself.

I started walking up the off ramp to southbound Yonge St just to see if it was possible.. technically yes, there is a fairly wide shoulder. But what I cannot believe is no one saw her/remembered seeing her. That stretch of the 401/Yonge is never quiet, and what struck home for me was how I realised I was startling people. Every motorist who passed me practically did a double take and some even swerved a bit. It's just not where you expect to see someone walking. I cut short my test because I was afraid I might cause an accident by scaring someone. I didn't get anywhere near the point where she might have gone over - that would be in the exit lane before it curves off, I think.. Now.. maybe she took a different route.. but I couldn't see one.

LE seemed very confident of her demise as suicide, and I've read on here there are ways to tell if a body was tossed, fell accidentally or jumped deliberately based on how the bones break etc.. but I've always been skeptical that she got there under her own steam, on foot. JMO of course.
 
Delurking to reply to this. I've been following the Jeffrey Boucher case, but MM's case had special interest for me because I live very close to where she was found and often walk north on Yonge, and under the 401. When I heard how they thought she had jumped from that overpass into the golf course property, I scouted it out myself.

I started walking up the off ramp to southbound Yonge St just to see if it was possible.. technically yes, there is a fairly wide shoulder. But what I cannot believe is no one saw her/remembered seeing her. That stretch of the 401/Yonge is never quiet, and what struck home for me was how I realised I was startling people. Every motorist who passed me practically did a double take and some even swerved a bit. It's just not where you expect to see someone walking. I cut short my test because I was afraid I might cause an accident by scaring someone. I didn't get anywhere near the point where she might have gone over - that would be in the exit lane before it curves off, I think.. Now.. maybe she took a different route.. but I couldn't see one.

LE seemed very confident of her demise as suicide, and I've read on here there are ways to tell if a body was tossed, fell accidentally or jumped deliberately based on how the bones break etc.. but I've always been skeptical that she got there under her own steam, on foot. JMO of course.

Welcome to Ws. UpYoung, thanks for the informative post and for joining the conversation !
 
UY thanks for doing this (!) I had thought of it but I am the kind of person that irritates LE even over trifles so I imagined myself in their hands.....but yes not surprising your results

My own belief is that LE does NOT believe that is what happened o/w why after the remains were found why would they not put out a request for drivers to think back and see if they had seen a young woman walking there. And IMO they made the ridiculous announcement (just to be critical for a moment) that they were going to look at video from the bridge but sorry they would KNOW KNOW KNOW that it would not be available from traffic cases etc.

ACTUALLY IMO that is a clue of some type but I don't know what type - that they would feign ignorance about the possibility of retrieving video - and got all the positive articles on MSM as if they were doing something.

To go a bit further which I probably shouldn't the horses are creepy it is almost as if they know already they are not going to find Mariam.

Vakhtang: I do leave it very slightly open I mean you can love someone and kill them. Not my suspect though.

Why put Julian Gojer the forensic psychiatrist on him? This may look grandstanding but I want to divulge that I was at a medical clinic and an man came in came out to me and asked for Julian Gojer. I told him I knew who that was but he would hardly expected to be found at a end of the world med clinic filling subscriptions.

This really happened - so who is messing with this case? (Thinking back to the Western sightings of Mariam etc.)




I called the TTC about the buses and EG West station and they were able to give me DETAILED info (public) about how long data was kept from the cameras (by the way they told me in Mariam case LE came and took the films )

They are saying that for financial and logistical reasons..... they blew a lot of money marching horses up Shallmar and through Earl Bales who ordered that charade I wonder (just to be critical for a moment). When McLean announces the finding at news conference to me he looks around the room to show he doesn't believe it for one second but maybe that is my delusion.




Delurking to reply to this. I've been following the Jeffrey Boucher case, but MM's case had special interest for me because I live very close to where she was found and often walk north on Yonge, and under the 401. When I heard how they thought she had jumped from that overpass into the golf course property, I scouted it out myself.

I started walking up the off ramp to southbound Yonge St just to see if it was possible.. technically yes, there is a fairly wide shoulder. But what I cannot believe is no one saw her/remembered seeing her. That stretch of the 401/Yonge is never quiet, and what struck home for me was how I realised I was startling people. Every motorist who passed me practically did a double take and some even swerved a bit. It's just not where you expect to see someone walking. I cut short my test because I was afraid I might cause an accident by scaring someone. I didn't get anywhere near the point where she might have gone over - that would be in the exit lane before it curves off, I think.. Now.. maybe she took a different route.. but I couldn't see one.

LE seemed very confident of her demise as suicide, and I've read on here there are ways to tell if a body was tossed, fell accidentally or jumped deliberately based on how the bones break etc.. but I've always been skeptical that she got there under her own steam, on foot. JMO of course.

International: this is what I want to know - here is a film about the young literary artistic hijackers of the Soviet plane someone elses terrorist is someone elses insurgent etc. Again I don't want to be sensationalist I DONT know if there is any link - this thing is not in English

Jeans Generation - YouTube
 
Delurking to reply to this. I've been following the Jeffrey Boucher case, but MM's case had special interest for me because I live very close to where she was found and often walk north on Yonge, and under the 401. When I heard how they thought she had jumped from that overpass into the golf course property, I scouted it out myself.

I started walking up the off ramp to southbound Yonge St just to see if it was possible.. technically yes, there is a fairly wide shoulder. But what I cannot believe is no one saw her/remembered seeing her. That stretch of the 401/Yonge is never quiet, and what struck home for me was how I realised I was startling people. Every motorist who passed me practically did a double take and some even swerved a bit. It's just not where you expect to see someone walking. I cut short my test because I was afraid I might cause an accident by scaring someone. I didn't get anywhere near the point where she might have gone over - that would be in the exit lane before it curves off, I think.. Now.. maybe she took a different route.. but I couldn't see one.

LE seemed very confident of her demise as suicide, and I've read on here there are ways to tell if a body was tossed, fell accidentally or jumped deliberately based on how the bones break etc.. but I've always been skeptical that she got there under her own steam, on foot. JMO of course.


WELCOME UpYonge!

I have always had a problem with the pat explanation that Mariam must have walked up to the overpass and jumped. I used to work at the offices at Yonge and York Mills (yes, where the stabbings took place today) and always had difficulty imagining that someone could walk up there, to the bridge, and jump, without many people seeing it happen. That stretch of highway 401 is always busy, no matter the time of day or night.

I've simply never felt comfortable with this explanation.

Thinking of Marian. :(
 
Thanks for the welcome, Chorley, Snoopster and Dotr!

I currently work in the YCC complex, and yesterday was scary, lockdown etc. So glad they apprehended the troubled fellow. I feel for the victims and their families, and also his family (wife and teenage daughter apparently).

Further to Mariam.. I have also walked that golf course numerous time in the winter when it is closed and not seen a thing. Not that I ever got that close to the area where someone could have fallen from the overpass, but still.

I haven't been following the international material regarding the father and forensic psyc etc.. I will have to do more reading.

Anyway, I am glad to be here!
 
The video in my # 370 links to the article on the Aeroflot hijacking in I think 349 and there is a link..... though of course it would be bizarre if this had anything to do with Mariam's disappearance...but who knows.

I remember a media article said her family "was not ensconsed" in the small Toronto Georgian community so are there reasons where people were afraid to express affinity with them? Yet the people you see around them during her disappearance seem supportive.

On the W5 show I believe Mariam's Mom said her username on the computer was "Freedom" - that can mean so many things.

It is interesting in Langer/Fridman's slideshow concerning 120 E. East where her backpack was found something called the Georgian Relief Org. something like seems to be sponsored by the Points the traffic cops will represent you in court bus.

Is this the same business started by Lawrie who found the body of Sharin Morningstar Keenan and then resigned?......or just a similar company?

I wonder how they came to sponsor this small org. whatever it is the address in on Finch I think near Dufferin in a somewhat mysterious looking building though I find almost everything mysterious.

Time is going by and it is probably worth trying one more time to figure out what happened to Mariam.

Sometimes as time goes by people are less loyal so it might be worth a police media or private call out for info from 1. students at the schools 2. people who might have seen her backpack especially the first person or people to see it there. 3. anyone else both here and just to be thoroughal in Tblisi as well - I mean she was here such a short time......

Reading between the lines here....I get the impression her parents thought she was being "held"..........probably from the day she went missing and probably around Yonge Eg. I remember way back there was a tip that she was held around there but the address did not make sense. I wonder if they got any mysterious calls anything like that in the days after she went missing....

adding here is a cogent post form Dion early thread

The only picture of them them at a subway that has been released, is the one at Union Station. If all stations have cameras, then why don't they have one of them returning home (or is video coverage only at certain areas of the stations, and may have missed them??). They lived in between two subway stations (Eglinton and Eglinton West) probably nearer Eg West, but either of these stations should have some video.

We need to find out when the last "Verified" sighting was. If the Union Stn pic was taken going to the Dragon Boat race and not returning from it (it appeared as if it were going, as she was looking at a map or something) the last sighting would have been at the Race itself, unless subway videos prove otherwise." End of quote

As far as I know but I would not really know of course even her family has not seen later pics of Mariam after Union Station. I have looked through Dragon Boat race photos of all types can't see her.

But at Union Station just a few metres further from those images she would be picked up on another camera.

So I have to ask: why is LE not releasing any later images or footage of Mariam? Bizarre. They MUST have some.
 
UpYonge living or working up that way have you heard any info for example about the fellows who found the remains? Were they "locals"? Have you every heard workmates voice their opinions? - I realize most people know nothing about it etc. yet would like to know if you know anything to that effect...

Wondering if you have any suspicions concerning Mariam's father given that it was the incident where you work (man with knife) that possibly (?) prompted you to write here..

(Just reading between the lines.... and we are starving for more voices here to keep Mariam's case alive). So thanks for your posts...



Thanks for the welcome, Chorley, Snoopster and Dotr!

I currently work in the YCC complex, and yesterday was scary, lockdown etc. So glad they apprehended the troubled fellow. I feel for the victims and their families, and also his family (wife and teenage daughter apparently).

Further to Mariam.. I have also walked that golf course numerous time in the winter when it is closed and not seen a thing. Not that I ever got that close to the area where someone could have fallen from the overpass, but still.

I haven't been following the international material regarding the father and forensic psyc etc.. I will have to do more reading.

Anyway, I am glad to be here!
 
Sorry for multiple posts but want to separate - as with Audrey Gleave case all we can do is go over and over the little bit we have.. unless as I say someone wants to take it further...

1. On U site way back a poster vehemently argued that the backpack was planted. Why would someone leave her backpack in plain site? Others concurred saying it was intended to be found. So..... it is then a red herring hoping to get LE looking in the wrong place? I think not.

2. The curious thing would be why there in a building with such a strange history. It would be a VERY subtle clue someone would have to know something about the building and who did before Fridman/Langer did his research?

3. It would actually fit with involvement by her family I have to admit IF they knew the immigration person from Studio City etc. BUT why would her family then not embrace the suicide theory it would be a blessing from out of the blue in that case. But I don't think they are. So I don't think they had any involvement.

4. So....what is a message to her parents? For all we know they were contacted by someone and they have either kept it to themselves or were unsure if it was genuine or not.

5. Was it dropped, thrown out of a car etc.? Dropped by Mariam purposefully as a clue say as she was being driven into the garage at 120? Was it left in the garage at 120 and migrated outdoors?

5. The "Mariam is being held at 120 Redpath tip" remains interesting even though there is no such address. But why 120? Did that tip come in before or after the backpack was found?

6. I am interested in the building south side of Eg at Redpath. There was a Georgian name living there in 2011 when I check there if anyone knows how to approach them through the community. Outcast says that building shares the open garage with 120 Eg East.

7. I had an interesting experience with someone walking towards Redpath on Eg East they angrily told me to go away for a minute then said they had a powerful intuitive feeling that Mariam had been held in the building at Redpath (they didn't know about the tip) they sensed intense fear and a fairly nice apt. with leather couches etc......men....well Russians is what they said - also a powerful smell of cinnabuns.....there is the kiosk at the station. OK I am embarrased I am supposed to be rational but for what it is worth......some intuitions are partly rational just putting together fragments of possibility and probability....

One thing struck me that I think is important. The famous lawyer I contacted about Mariam asked if her Mom really wanted to look further into this he said she and her son are still alive "thank God". Now would he say that if he thought it was a suicide or a sex slaying? Seems he thinks it was something else. He represented by the way briefly two Russian spies the CSIS agents shadowing them lived at 77 Roehampton and I think 101 Roehampton (going from memory not sure about the second address) that is basically the other side of the parking lot from 120 Eg. East the info on this I posted earlier this thread. This should have occured to me before I am a bit slow.

Union Station: as I said there has to be more video. So why select this video. I think both M and her brother are not familiar with the station BUT her brother points towards the right I AM GUESSING because he sees the big clock I am guessing they were supposed to meet someone there. Anyway why can't we see what they do next? Or seem them on the streetcar? Or on the way back? Would LE really be giving too much away at this late point?
 
Sorry for the late reply here - I don't log in much. I had forgotten a detail about my hike up the off ramp - there is a stretch of it where you can't walk on the road - it's just the live traffic lane. For that part I climbed over the little iron fence and walked through the brush, before climbing back onto the road when a shoulder appeared. I still startled people even when I was not on the road.

I don't think I thought far enough ahead as to what I would say if confronted by LE..."Umm..my car broke down." "Where is it?" "Umm.. I can't remember." That would have gone over well..good thing it didn't happen!

Yeah, ppl at my workplace have expressed amazement at the conclusion that was reached, for sure. Plus the fact that a number of us walk in the golf course in winter when it is closed.. and were a little shaken that we would have walked very close to where she was found without seeing anything.. for years.

I think they said the fellows who found her were teenagers just out walking? IIRC.

No ideas about the father..it certainly turned into a weirder and weirder story though.
 
Thanks UpYonge

Well I am not sure exactly where her body was found. Unless I am mistaken they cut the chain link fence. (Anyone know if that is correct or not?)

If so I wonder why they had to do that. There is access by road on both sides of the fence. Maybe for the officers looking for evidence along the slope.

Certainly it isn't a spot that anyone would likely come upon just walking.

Toronto Sun article (I linked on this thread) said a child's multi-colour plastic ball was found by the site of the remains. Has anyone read the novel or seen the film The Lovely Bones (?) There is a slightly surrealist motif of a ball like that. Not sure what I am saying.
 
I am still wondering about Mariam's brief experience with FHCI. I am curious about whether someone from the school administration knows something. They agreed that every and each student of the school be interrogated by the police, but how about administration and teachers???
 
I think they would take a brief look at male teachers there not women.
 
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