GUILTY Canada - Noelle Paquette, 27, Sarnia, Ont, 31 Dec 2012 - #4

[Bravo]

I've been reading a lot about the TS case on this board. I am from SW Ontario but never read too much about that case when it happened, but it seems like a lot of posters here read a lot about that case on WS. Can someone direct me to the original thread, so I can start at the beginning....also....are all the threads in order like this one...with a link at the last page directing me to the next thread?

Was there a publication ban on WS also for that case? If so, does the thread pick up right where it left off, after the ban was lifted? I just want to make sure I don't miss anything. Thanks!!

If u didn't find the TS case just go the main page on Websleuths. Scroll down to Trials. You will see TS. Click on it.

 

[Bravo]

Wow - a month later and MacGregor's hands are still heavily bandaged. (?) Makes me wonder if there are casts under there. Or, just a good lawyer's advice. JMO

I believe his injuries were significant. IMO

 

[danzn16]

Any updates about what they think happened to Noelle? Or all still sealed due to the gag?

 

[summer_breeze]

No rumors please! This would include information from "sources", even if they are local.

 

[klmno]

Not sure if anyone responded to this yet but Kingston is slated to close sometime in 2014. I could not find an article with the exact date and IMO they probably have not released an exact date yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/19/pol-prison-closing-toews.html

 

[Alethea Dice]

Good news for Ontario reporters and the public. Unless, of course, they just put publication bans on all trials.

Friday marked a new era of transparency in Ontario’s Superior Court of Justice when lawyers, paralegals and journalists were allowed to officially use their electronic devices in court for the first time.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/02/01/ontario-will-allow-tweeting-in-courts

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

Wow - a month later and MacGregor's hands are still heavily bandaged. (?) Makes me wonder if there are casts under there. Or, just a good lawyer's advice. JMO

I've never heard of wrapping bandages around casts, there would be no reason to do so. If they are still wrapped for legitimate reasons, my guess would either be due to burns or severe frostbite.

 

[katydid23]

Were his hands injured in his attack on Noelle or did he self injure afterwards? Do we know?

 

[Alethea Dice]

I've never heard of wrapping bandages around casts, there would be no reason to do so. If they are still wrapped for legitimate reasons, my guess would either be due to burns or severe frostbite.

Or cuts, with damage to the tendons, could be another alternative.

JMO

 

[Mannie]

Please take a look at the images I've uploaded. To some, a picture is worth a thousand words and can help explain a lot....especially since there's been so much talk about this "ditch" and the footprints......Anyone have some answers to the questions in my pics?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/10764040.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/snowc.jpg/

I'm not sure if this helps, and I haven't been to the site, but in Southern Ontario ditches tend to run parallel to the road (you show it as perpendicular in the summer shot).

Have a look at the right hand side of the summer shot. First there's the road, then gravel, then some dead grass, then a green stripe, and then the field. The "green stripe" is the ditch, it's green because it gets more water than the grass next to the road because the water collects in the ditch.

 

[Mannie]

Does anyone have the fetlife pictures or screenshots? <modsnip> those are the only ones I did not get to see, as the sites were shut down by the time I went to them.

Oh I'd love to see those too!

 

[Mannie]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195689&page=2

Please remember this is one case of several that indicate the same potential killer(s). The NP event brought it back not only to Sarnia but to the family and friends of past victims. Please visit the above site and help solve this young girls murder. Check the internet. There is a lot of information that you should know. Thank you.

Fraiser brings up a good point, the Sarnia Observer lists four unsolved murders in the area and those of Karen Caughlin (1974) and Morag Davies (1988) COULD be the same killer years apart. There are many more if you include the rest of Southern Ontario, and add the "missing" to the confirmed dead.

But focusing just on these two, the earlier one took place before either TB or MM were born, and the later one was when TB was six, so I'll go out on a limb and rule her out for that one, and MM has the perfect alibi in that he won't be born for another half decade.

The Pickton Inquiry in BC showed us that police can be slow to realize a serial killer is at work, and Canada's homicide statistsics show 47% of cases result in stays, withdrawls, or not guilt verdicts and an equal number of guilty verdicts. So statistically it's roughly 50/50 that they've got the perp AND can prove it.

I'm new here but I think our job at WebSleuths is to rise above all of it. We look at arrests and evidence objectively and if what we see doesn't fit the police theory then we say so (respecting both the WS rules and publication bans while we do it).

I want the police to catch NP's killer or killers, and I want them to do it in such a way that they can prove they have the right person or persons, if they can't convince a judge or jury beyond a reasonable doubt then the killer may still be at large.

Hopefully they learned from their mistakes in the TS case where their lucky they got the conviction given how badly tainted the searches were.

 

[Travis McGee]

I've never heard of wrapping bandages around casts, there would be no reason to do so. If they are still wrapped for legitimate reasons, my guess would either be due to burns or severe frostbite.

The new type of cast, I think are fibreglass but I’m not sure, look every bit like bandages but are hard as a rock like the old heavy plaster casts. The new ones are light, durable and if wet, do not fall apart like plaster ones. Could be what mm has on. They do look like bandages.

jmo

 

[Buckeye lady]

Were his hands injured in his attack on Noelle or did he self injure afterwards? Do we know?

I read on the internet that when someone stabs another and they hit bone, they will also stab themselves from the force of the blow.

 

[Mannie]

Great post from Crowstoes that I thought was worth bringing over:

With all due respect to Moxie and Crowstoes, there are a significant number of errors in this post.

New to the board, and reading comments so thought I would add my comments:

1. Tomorrow's court appearance will be strictly remand. If in London, as reported, it will occur either by videoconference in courtroom 12 at 9:00 am [the public will not likely get in as the courtroom is extremely small] or in person, then courtroom 9 or 10 is the most likely. Court theoretically at 9:30 a.m. is actually more like 10:00 a.m. The reason for London if so is many: no need to drain transportation police resources to Sarnia for straight remands from EMDC, enhanced security, videoconferencing abilities directly from EMDC to the courthouse.
​

Hindsight show's you were right about remand, but it wasn't a given. The crown can ask for "three clear days" to continue an investigation etc. but it isn't necessarily granted.

Also, with respect to "enhanced security", with respect to Sarnia there's a tunnel connecting the courthouse and the jail - that's way more secure than taking a vehicle onto a public road.

2. There will be no plea tomorrow, nor expect one for some time. There are a number of procedural steps which must take place before a plea can be entered, particularly in Superior Court matters. Superior Court is far more formal than most criminal matters handled by the Ontario General Division.

Procedural steps include: 1) the accuseds must apply for and qualify for legal aid [this is by way of an application including financials]. This can take anywhere from 1-2 weeks onwards depending on the busyness of the local legal aid office. Generally, sadly, these applications will be fast tracked. 2) the accuseds must find lawyers willing to take their case [this is not as easy as you'd think as s 231 offences are not done by everyone],
​

The word "must" invalidates what you've said. There is no requirement in law to apply for legal aid, and murder cases are sometimes done pro bono. If either the accused or someone they know has the means to pay for a lawyer this could be skipped entirely, or the accused could technically act unrepresented in the matter.

3) there must be a bail hearing set [unless accuseds wave them] which, in London's timelines would be at least 4-6 weeks post request.
​

According to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms the accused MUST be brought before a justice within 24 hours, and as I previously mentioned the crown can only ask for three clear days to show cause as to why they should not be released from custody.

The accused can consent to longer than three clear days to prepare their case for release, but that's the only way in law it can drag out longer.

4) most bail hearings are not set until at least basic disclosure is provided to counsel-estimate that timeline for the really basic stuff at 2-3 months [the videos, witness statements, expert reports, etc will all trickle in over 6-8 months following-remember the crown has to review all this, after police superiors have reviewed it, etc, etc....the meat of disclosure takes time.
​

I'm not sure if this may apply to parts of the US, but in Canada this kind of delay is specifically forbidden by law without the accused's consent. The whole reason behind the s.517 publication ban that TB & MM were probably given is because bail hearings happen so quickly after arrest. In order to balance the liberty of the accused who is presumed innocent, with the lack of available disclosure at the time of the hearning, to ultimately ensure they have a fair trial.

Let me be clear, disclosure trickling in over a long timeline is correct, I'm only taking issue with the assertion it will delay bail.

On top of all this, the charges are first degree, plus whatever will be added (IMHO there are more charges pending] and no lawyer doing their job will advise their client to plead without seeing the case. So don't assume right away that just because the accuseds are not pleading guilty immediately that they won't, or that they won't change their plea if a not guilty one, later....
​

That's basically correct. I'd add that Ontario crowns have very strict guidelines which can sometimes prevent them from entering into plea agreements depending on the disclosure situation.

3. People questioning if they will get bail, it is unlikely. First, the crown needs to be able to show the judge that there is reasonable public risk if they are released. This shouldn't be an issue, including evidence of flight risk (as in, they fled Sarnia to London).
​

Flight risk is one of the bail criteria, but it's far from certain in this case. Yes the two were arrested at London's Lamplighter Inn. What the media fails to mention is that the Lamplighter is a stone's throw from one of the largest teaching hospitals in Southern Ontario (Victoria Hospital). BT is alleged to be a health care professional and MM is alleged to be injured, an alternative purpose for a trip to London other than "flight" would be to tend to those injuries. This would be further bolstered if it was Victoria Hospital that called the police.

Add to that that both have strong ties to Southern Ontario as evidenced across facebook, etc. and in my opinion the crown can't make this "flight" on the balance of probabilitries.

Once the crown demonstrates their burden of proof, the defense has to show the accuseds have sufficient surety, and won't be a public danger or flight risk. Previous criminal records can be admitted at this point by the crown. This includes a YOA record in which there was violence or various other circumstances.
​

The second criteria for bail is if they'd re-offend while on bail. I'm not sure what you menay by a YoA record, but I've not seen anything to suggets either has a criminal history so again this is difficult for the crown to satisfy on the balance of probablitities.

I will say that in practice not having any criminal history will partly work against them in that while they have never "failed to appear", they also have never demonstrated that they have appeared. It's a little like applying for your first credit card.

A surety in this case would include significant cash deposits, (perhaps collateral) and a 24/7 surety ie babysitter that the court trusts to make sure the person obeys the bail release rules. The babysitter must pledge collateral and or cash of their own
​

Sureties aren't required but I agree that in a case like this, especially in Ontario, there better be a good one and it will likely mean house arrest. A parent pledging their house for their accused adult child, who offers to have that adult child live with them, has an alarm system that alerts the police immediately when someone exits the home without the alarm code, and GPS ankle bracelet and a JP would be hard pressed to say a solid bail plan wasn't in place.

and have no criminal record.
​

The law is clear that a surety having a criminal record does not necessarily disqualify them.

The public interest always outweighs, so I doubt that either will be released.
​

Absolutes are difficult, so it's the word "always" that's at issue here. The JP must balance the public interest with the accused's right to be presumed innocent. I will say that the crown has their best shot in Ontario which has a significantly higher remand rate than the rest of Canada, but it's far from a sure thing.

The wild card in terms of "public interest" is the "stregth of the crown's case", which if strong could trump the other factors and result in remand, but in law even a strong case is not in and of itself sufficent reason not to grant bail.

Moroever it's easier for those accused of murder to get bail than say those accused of attempted murder because, the allegedly intended victim is no longer at risk. Morbid, but accurate.

4. At the superior court level, expect that there will meetings, pre-trial conferences, disclosure meetings and resolution meetings as well as setting the bail hearing, the preliminary inquiry if there is one, and eventually the trial. There are a number of other motions which will occur such as change of venue, whether to try the accuseds together or separately, and I'm certain a number of evidentiary motions.

Hope this helps answer some questions, all of which are IMHO and I hope, respectfully explained
​

Similarly I hope I've helped clear up some of the misconceptions around next steps and done so respectfully.

 

[airplanelamp]

Fraiser brings up a good point, the Sarnia Observer lists four unsolved murders in the area and those of Karen Caughlin (1974) and Morag Davies (1988) COULD be the same killer years apart. There are many more if you include the rest of Southern Ontario, and add the "missing" to the confirmed dead.

But focusing just on these two, the earlier one took place before either TB or MM were born, and the later one was when TB was six, so I'll go out on a limb and rule her out for that one, and MM has the perfect alibi in that he won't be born for another half decade.

The Pickton Inquiry in BC showed us that police can be slow to realize a serial killer is at work, and Canada's homicide statistsics show 47% of cases result in stays, withdrawls, or not guilt verdicts and an equal number of guilty verdicts. So statistically it's roughly 50/50 that they've got the perp AND can prove it.

I'm new here but I think our job at WebSleuths is to rise above all of it. We look at arrests and evidence objectively and if what we see doesn't fit the police theory then we say so (respecting both the WS rules and publication bans while we do it).

I want the police to catch NP's killer or killers, and I want them to do it in such a way that they can prove they have the right person or persons, if they can't convince a judge or jury beyond a reasonable doubt then the killer may still be at large.

Hopefully they learned from their mistakes in the TS case where their lucky they got the conviction given how badly tainted the searches were.

I really doubt that those killings are in any way related in all honesty. IIRC the police had a suspect in Morag Davis' case that they didn't have enough evidence to arrest?

Cause of death, age of victim, and all the circumstances involved are soooo very different from one another.

As a local, I am pretty certain that the police have the right people in custody in NP's case.

 

[Bravo]

Were his hands injured in his attack on Noelle or did he self injure afterwards? Do we know?

No official word katy. Just a guess but i believe it happened during the attack. IMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I'm not sure if this helps, and I haven't been to the site, but in Southern Ontario ditches tend to run parallel to the road (you show it as perpendicular in the summer shot).

Have a look at the right hand side of the summer shot. First there's the road, then gravel, then some dead grass, then a green stripe, and then the field. The "green stripe" is the ditch, it's green because it gets more water than the grass next to the road because the water collects in the ditch.

That was my first thought too, but if you look at google maps, in that particular area, it appears there is also a ditch running perpendicular to the road, between the trees and the field.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=mandaumin+road+at+petrolia+line&hl=en&ll=42.87348,-82.235734&spn=0.000031,0.018797&sll=42.85684,-82.200394&sspn=0.251675,0.601501&hnear=Petrolia+Line+%26+Mandaumin+Rd,+St+Clair,+Lambton+County,+Ontario+N0N+1R0&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.873392,-82.235741&panoid=UEIqUSIbf8EyEp3pcg1z1Q&cbp=12,279.3,,1,4.22

 

[Alethea Dice]

The new type of cast, I think are fibreglass but I’m not sure, look every bit like bandages but are hard as a rock like the old heavy plaster casts. The new ones are light, durable and if wet, do not fall apart like plaster ones. Could be what mm has on. They do look like bandages.

jmo

Do we know if he has casts? All I remember reading was splints and bandages.

 

[Moxie Vi]

With all due respect to Moxie and Crowstoes, there are a significant number of errors

<RSBM>

Similarly I hope I've helped clear up some of the misconceptions around next steps and done so respectfully.

Thanks for the clarification! I am not familiar with the Canadian justice system so am learning as I go.