CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #3

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I agree with your sentiments about not having to wait for him to plead not guilty and the events of the BC murderers.

As for the specifics to this case, when I have watched the briefings and read details, my mind inevitably asks "Yes, but what about this...." I know A+B+C = D. Currently, I know A and B, and I know D (the outcome). Yet I still want to know C, even though it does not change the outcome. Maybe it is not important or required that I know C. But that is how my brain works and if I could flip the switch to turn that part of it off...... I would!
 
newguy123 said:
I agree with your sentiments about not having to wait for him to plead not guilty and the events of the BC murderers.

As for the specifics to this case, when I have watched the briefings and read details, my mind inevitably asks "Yes, but what about this...." I know A+B+C = D. Currently, I know A and B, and I know D (the outcome). Yet I still want to know C, even though it does not change the outcome. Maybe it is not important or required that I know C. But that is how my brain works and if I could flip the switch to turn that part of it off...... I would!
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Yes what you say makes sense to me. This might explain my thoughts -

During the BC tragedy the concern over copy cat crimes was mentioned and that’s really the first time I thought about the possible implications of too much information being released. But the more I read about it, the more I began to think yes, it has merit. Now murders are highlighted by the media and talked about endlessly on SM incl blogs, podcasts etc. The more horrendous, the longer the focus is on it. This is far different than the past where at most it’d be front page news for a few days.

So how many people right now might there be living on the edge? I’m thinking of the sort of person with no empathy, who places no value on others, who is frustrated, discouraged and angry at the world, a nobody who thinks they ought to be a household name by one-upping the devastation already caused by some nutcase IF enough information is released for a copy cat to associate themselves to the killers ‘plight’, following in his footsteps per say.

So in an odd way, the public release of more and more information especially at this time leaves me feeling somewhat uneasy. Maybe it’s because this tragedy happened at the worst time, during COVID restrictions, which may’ve have a triggering situation as well - and we’re not over it yet. JMO
 
MistyWaters said:
Yes what you say makes sense to me. This might explain my thoughts -

During the BC tragedy the concern over copy cat crimes was mentioned and that’s really the first time I thought about the possible implications of too much information being released. But the more I read about it, the more I began to think yes, it has merit. Now murders are highlighted by the media and talked about endlessly on SM incl blogs, podcasts etc. The more horrendous, the longer the focus is on it. This is far different than the past where at most it’d be front page news for a few days.

So how many people right now might there be living on the edge? I’m thinking of the sort of person with no empathy, who places no value on others, who is frustrated, discouraged and angry at the world, a nobody who thinks they ought to be a household name by one-upping the devastation already caused by some nutcase IF enough information is released for a copy cat to associate themselves to the killers ‘plight’, following in his footsteps per say.

So in an odd way, the public release of more and more information especially at this time leaves me feeling somewhat uneasy. Maybe it’s because this tragedy happened at the worst time, during COVID restrictions, which may’ve have a triggering situation as well - and we’re not over it yet. JMO
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I totally agree with this, IMO the shooter was thinking the whole time about the front page international coverage he was going to get, that he'd lead the police on a wild chase, outsmarting them every step of the way. If you can't be famous, you can at least be notorious, and if you can't create something good, you can destroy it instead.
 
I have wondered if after the initial activity at Portapique if he did exactly what you proposed. After his night in Debert he must have known it was just a matter of time before he was stopped. His activities in Wentworth etc might have been to keep the focus in that direction while he stole a car and went anonymously back toward Halifax. There he prob. planned even more.
I'm not sure the original killings in Portapique were part of a huge plan, but I do believe it soon developed into that notoriety plan you suggest.
I think the biggest problem is trying to make sense of something which has no sense to it.
 
newguy123 said:
I have wondered if after the initial activity at Portapique if he did exactly what you proposed. After his night in Debert he must have known it was just a matter of time before he was stopped. His activities in Wentworth etc might have been to keep the focus in that direction while he stole a car and went anonymously back toward Halifax. There he prob. planned even more.
I'm not sure the original killings in Portapique were part of a huge plan, but I do believe it soon developed into that notoriety plan you suggest.
I think the biggest problem is trying to make sense of something which has no sense to it.
Click to expand...

When the two young men fled BC last summer after killing 3 innocent people one of the most oft repeated comments I recall is why didn’t they continue murdering and switching vehicles as they were fleeing from the manhunt? Thank goodness they didn’t but that’s exactly what creature did, after the Portapique massacre. I agree, I don’t think he intended to stop had he made it to Halifax.
 
MistyWaters said:
When the two young men fled BC last summer after killing 3 innocent people one of the most oft repeated comments I recall is why didn’t they continue murdering and switching vehicles as they were fleeing from the manhunt? Thank goodness they didn’t but that’s exactly what creature did, after the Portapique massacre. I agree, I don’t think he intended to stop had he made it to Halifax.
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I don't think the teens were suicidal until the very end. I think they thought they could get away with it somehow, like in a video game.

I believe NS shooter was on a suicide mission from the start.

JMO

ETA I think this is why it upsets me when people blame police: IMO that's feeding right into shooter's agenda.
 
Satchie said:
I don't think the teens were suicidal until the very end. I think they thought they could get away with it somehow, like in a video game.

I believe NS shooter was on a suicide mission from the start.

JMO

ETA I think this is why it upsets me when people blame police: IMO that's feeding right into shooter's agenda.
Click to expand...

Excellent point, yes I think blaming police does feed his agenda.

If he hadn’t made mistakes, if he hadn’t been recognized and then shot dead by police, it’s possible his initial intention was to successfully pass himself off as a unidentified rogue RCMP officer. Had that come to pass it’s almost impossible to imagine the fury and upset it would’ve generated towards the reputation of the RCMP. In a roundabout way he did achieve something of that.
 
Perhaps that was the agenda, dress like a police officer, cause death and destruction, then, as he did, change back to civilian clothes and make a getaway. To me it begs the question.....how much of this was planned and how much was just improvised as he was on the run? Perhaps the killings at Wentworth and then random roadside ones were intentional to use up resources there while he ran in the other direction.

Sadly, I just saw a news article where the Bond's son, among others says they learn details thru the media, not directly from the police. It's been that way since the beginning.
 
Families of victims in N.S. shooting rampage say police left body in vehicle as it was towed

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767

The article is about an amendment that was made to the proposed class action lawsuit.

An excerpt:
They allege the RCMP allowed a deceased victim's body to remain inside a vehicle while it was towed from a crime scene so it could be collected and analyzed as evidence, "rather than ensuring that the body was first removed and cared for in the appropriate manner before the vehicle was seized."

Sandra McCulloch, a lawyer with Patterson Law in Truro, N.S., who is representing the families, said the vehicle mentioned in the amendment relates to Joey Webber, who was killed by the shooter while he went out to run an errand for his family on the morning of April 19.​

This is disturbing. It appears to suggest that JW was still in his car when it was hijacked by the gunman. If I'm remembering the timeline correctly, his car would have been found at GG's place, where the gunman switched to her car.

MOO
 
Wow.......just shaking my head. I have no idea what procedures must be followed in such a circumstance, but this does not sound like something that should have happened. Perhaps I am old fashioned, but to me, the dead should be treated with dignity and respect, esp. in these circumstances. I can see inspecting the vehicle with the body inside at the scene. But to tow it away removes the context of the crime scene (as I see it) and makes this so very wrong. The indignity to his body is shameful.

It also shows that despite how much I think I know, I don't really know much here. I had always believed that Joey Webber stopped to help at the crash scene, was shot, and then probably removed from the vehicle and left on the road. That scenario is me filling in gaps with speculation. Never did I expect he was still in the vehicle, and if so, probably just shoved aside as "baggage" so the gunman could flee the scene.
 
From day one, there have been a couple of "family members" who have raged against everything and everyone who does not passively accept their profound, and seemingly, boundless outrage about the death and manner of death of their loved one. If the killer were alive, I expect they would tear him limb from limb. They have attacked the spouse, and anyone who tries to tone down their rhetoric, or suggests being stuck in rage for months is not healthy. And, they have found a law firm to amplify their rage.

I don't know what police procedure is in such circumstances (as a vehicle being a murder scene). I am reminded, however, of seeing vehicles going down the highway on the back of a flatbed with the vehicle draped in a tarp. I also recall a woman commenting in a social media thread that her husband did some of the towing work on April 19, and that it was pretty awful. It may be that there are circumstances in which there is no way to extract a body without traumatising everyone who witnesses it, or that for other reasons, removing the vehicle to a private, enclosed location is actually undertaken to preserve the dignity of the victim. We do not even know if it happened as alleged.

Finally, even if there were barriers put up around this vehicle so that the body could be removed, one can imagine someone would have made a video which got into the media. Whenever I see those videos, I think of the victims' families having to deal with them over and over again, running on local, national, and international news. This victim had young children, even a baby. Some day in the not too distant future, they will likely be looking on the internet for information about how their father died. The fact the vehicle was removed to a private location and there is no video of a screened vehicle by the side of the road and a coroner's van sticking out is the kindest thing that could have happened for those children. Had their father had a choice, perhaps even he would have been less concerned about what happened to him in these moments, than the potential harm to those left behind.

It's is too bad that this had to be dragged into the media for the sake of another go at the RCMP.
 
I’m very shocked JWs body wasn’t left at the crime scene. Possibly the reason was because the killer hoped it would appear the female police officer died in a vehicle collision involving two cruisers, both ablaze from the accident.

“McCulloch said the amended class action has also formally named the province of Nova Scotia as a defendant in the case.

"The intention all along was to add the province as a defendant but under the law in Nova Scotia, in order to sue the province you have to give them formal notice of the claim that you intend to bring against them," she said...”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767

Reading into this latest CBC report, I’m certain the Province of N.S. was added to the intent to file a class action lawsuit because it’s the Office of the N.S. Medical Examiner who’s responsible for investigation of crime scene sites involving homicides and arranging transportation of bodies prior to autopsies, not the RCMP. The RCMP are a federal organization, not provincial.

But I suspect the reporter knew piling on more blame to the RCMP would capture readership. I can’t imagine the chaos of that weekend, 16 crime scene sites and 22 dead. I feel sad for the family but I don’t know, was it a matter of removing the discovered bodies as quickly as possible or leaving the victims for hours until Nova Scotia’s limited forensic resource teams were able to attend all separate crime scene sites? We know now who was responsible for all the murders but the RCMP couldn’t have known if there was more than one killer involved in a collaborative massacre all at the same time.
 
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After reading Paganini's reply, I do see things a bit differently as there were things I did not consider. The points made by Paganini and Mistywaters make me re-assess things......though it does still seem undignified. On the face of it though, transporting a body via tow truck or hearse should be a no-brainer. Perhaps it would be if other factors did not weigh in.

What does strike me as upsetting though is that this needs to be litigated. If it was wrong, apologise and move on. If it is standard procedure, explain and move on. It is not something for the courts.
 
MistyWaters said:
. . . was it a matter of removing the discovered bodies as quickly as possible or leaving the victims for hours until Nova Scotia’s limited forensic resource teams were able to attend all separate crime scene sites?
Click to expand...

This strikes me as being a very plausible explanation.

MistyWaters said:
But I suspect the reporter knew piling on more blame to the RCMP would capture readership.
Click to expand...

Sadly, this is also a plausible explanation.
 
newguy123 said:
Wow.......just shaking my head. I have no idea what procedures must be followed in such a circumstance, but this does not sound like something that should have happened. Perhaps I am old fashioned, but to me, the dead should be treated with dignity and respect, esp. in these circumstances. I can see inspecting the vehicle with the body inside at the scene. But to tow it away removes the context of the crime scene (as I see it) and makes this so very wrong. The indignity to his body is shameful.

It also shows that despite how much I think I know, I don't really know much here. I had always believed that Joey Webber stopped to help at the crash scene, was shot, and then probably removed from the vehicle and left on the road. That scenario is me filling in gaps with speculation. Never did I expect he was still in the vehicle, and if so, probably just shoved aside as "baggage" so the gunman could flee the scene.
Click to expand...

I agree with your thoughts. In this report there’s a lot of gaps which surely the reporter realizes. I have to wonder if JW’s family is aware this lawyer is speaking to the media even before the class action lawsuit is approved to proceed.

By this media report it makes no sense a class action lawsuit would be filed, allegedly in part based on the transportation of just one victim within the vehicle he was murdered in, because any damages would be equally shared by all members of the class action lawsuit.

“The class-action lawsuit must be approved by a judge before it can proceed to trial and none of the allegations have been proven in court.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767
 
MistyWaters said:
I’m very shocked JWs body wasn’t left at the crime scene. Possibly the reason was because the killer hoped it would appear the female police officer died in a vehicle collision involving two cruisers, both ablaze from the accident.

“McCulloch said the amended class action has also formally named the province of Nova Scotia as a defendant in the case.

"The intention all along was to add the province as a defendant but under the law in Nova Scotia, in order to sue the province you have to give them formal notice of the claim that you intend to bring against them," she said...”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767

Reading into this latest CBC report, I’m certain the Province of N.S. was added to the intent to file a class action lawsuit because it’s the Office of the N.S. Medical Examiner who’s responsible for investigation of crime scene sites involving homicides and arranging transportation of bodies prior to autopsies, not the RCMP. The RCMP are a federal organization, not provincial.

But I suspect the reporter knew piling on more blame to the RCMP would capture readership. I can’t imagine the chaos of that weekend, 16 crime scene sites and 22 dead. I feel sad for the family but I don’t know, was it a matter of removing the discovered bodies as quickly as possible or leaving the victims for hours until Nova Scotia’s limited forensic resource teams were able to attend all separate crime scene sites? We know now who was responsible for all the murders but the RCMP couldn’t have known if there was more than one killer involved in a collaborative massacre all at the same time.
Click to expand...

When the RCMP act as the provincial police, they are administered by the Provincial AG. Policing is a provincial matter. So the RCMP are a federal agency, but subject to provincial administration in most situations.
 
Tighthead said:
When the RCMP act as the provincial police, they are administered by the Provincial AG. Policing is a provincial matter. So the RCMP are a federal agency, but subject to provincial administration in most situations.
Click to expand...

Then why do you think was the Province of N.S. was specifically added to the class action lawsuit regarding the situation involving JW, if the original lawsuit already pertained to actions of the RCMP?
 
MistyWaters said:
Then why do you think was the Province of N.S. was specifically added to the class action lawsuit regarding the situation involving JW, if the original lawsuit already pertained to actions of the RCMP?
Click to expand...

They couldn’t name the Province initially as the notice provisions weren’t satisfied.
 
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