CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #3

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Tighthead said:
They couldn’t name the Province initially as the notice provisions weren’t satisfied.
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If the N.S. Medical Examiners Office wasn’t actively involved in arrangements for the transportation of bodies of each of the murder victims, as they are in other Canadian provinces, I’d be totally shocked as the RCMP are not responsible for “ensuring that the body was first removed and cared for.......”. Their role is to protect the crime scene until somebody from the Medical/Coroners Office arrives.

Anything can be “alleged by they” in a class action lawsuit, prior to it’s approval to proceed by a Judge even if on the surface the media report makes it seem the RCMP solely acted alone and bungled the case from beginning to end.

“They allege the RCMP allowed a deceased victim's body to remain inside a vehicle while it was towed from a crime scene so it could be collected and analyzed as evidence, "rather than ensuring that the body was first removed and cared for in the appropriate manner before the vehicle was seized."...”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767
 
I don't know if the Medical Examiner's office or the RCMP followed proper procedures, but I'm sure this will come out. What pains me is that even if the victim was handled in an inappropriate and undignified manner, it sometime feels as though anger and pain is leading the way here.
I also acknowledge no one I knew was lost in this incident, so it is easy for me to say that.
 
Is this correct below because it’s not what I remember police saying during prior PCs. IIRC it wasn’t until the common law wife came forward that the RCMP discovered the killer had a 4th replica police cruiser and uniform. Prior to that, although they knew his identity by the victim who was shot, they believed all his police cars/vehicles were accounted for and so it was possible he died by suicide in one of his property fires as it wasn’t yet known a police car had breached the parameter through a field until that sane morning. I don’t recall it ever being stated the RCMP weren’t aware of his identity until 6:30am.

BBM

“The amended class-action lawsuit also claims, on the night of April 18, an unnamed victim, who had been shot by a man who appeared to be driving a police cruiser, told police that they believed the shooter may have been “Gabe” who owned property in the area.

RCMP say they didn’t become aware of the gunman’s identity, who The Chronicle Herald is not naming, until 6:30 a.m. on April 19....”
RCMP left mass shooting victim's body in vehicle as it was towed, amended class-action lawsuit claims | The Chronicle Herald

ETA - Yeah, not sure what that’s about. The RCMP also included the statement from the man who was shot in their search warrants which were released by the media.

“Fairly early into our involvement, we learned of a possible suspect and learned the individual lived in a home in the community of Portapique.

The possible suspect's home and garages were fully engulfed in flames. Two police vehicles as well as a third vehicle were also burning on the property.

We also learned that the gunman was in possession of a pistol and long barreled weapons. He was also known to own several vehicles that looked like police vehicles.

Our efforts to locate suspect continued throughout the night.

After 0630, at daybreak, a victim emerged from hiding after she called 911.

Our officers responded and it was at that time that, through a significant key witness, we confirmed more details about Gabriel Wortman. This included the fact that he was in possession of a fully marked and equipped replica vehicle and was wearing a police uniform. He was in possession of several firearms that included pistols and long guns.....”
RCMP left mass shooting victim's body in vehicle as it was towed, amended class-action lawsuit claims | The Chronicle Herald
 
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newguy123 said:
I don't know if the Medical Examiner's office or the RCMP followed proper procedures, but I'm sure this will come out. What pains me is that even if the victim was handled in an inappropriate and undignified manner, it sometime feels as though anger and pain is leading the way here.
I also acknowledge no one I knew was lost in this incident, so it is easy for me to say that.
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In Nova Scotia it appears it’s happened at least once before —

“Why a victim's body might not be moved

Gail Anderson, a forensic researcher and professor at Simon Fraser University's School of Criminology, said working a crime scene is a very lengthy process and in this case the crime scene would be the vehicle.

"Removing the body immediately may seem preferable from a compassionate point of view but would most likely destroy very crucial evidence," she said in an email Thursday.

Moving the vehicle keeps the crime scene more secure, and can be more respectful, since it takes the victim "out of the eyes of the media and public," she said.

In another recent case, a murder victim's body was left in a vehicle as it was towed to a secure RCMP facility.

Police officers found Tylor McInnis, who had been shot, in the trunk of a car in a North Preston cemetery in August 2016.

During the murder trial in 2019, Dr. Erik Mont, Nova Scotia's deputy chief medical examiner, testified that it was important for his investigation to see the body as it was found. The full autopsy was completed later.“
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...awsuit-amended-nova-scotia-shooting-1.5709767
 
I remember at one of the press conferences that the police mentioned the shooter had known registered vehicles and they were accounted for, leading them to believe it was suicide inside one of the burning buildings. It was later they found out there was one more unregistered police car....
 
Yikes, there is more to the story. I wonder did the psycho killer convince JW to get into his cruiser or did he just move his body after murdering him? Considering the amount of flames shooting into the sky from the burning cars shown in the bystander videos, how could’ve the RCMP known the identity of the burned victim who was found inside in order to tell the difference between a deceased Portapique killer who succumbed in a showdown with the female officer or an innocent, helpful bystander? I don’t believe for a moment the body just happened to be inside the rogue cruiser which the killer set ablaze - it was an act intended to deceive police. The diabolical actions of this killer is well beyond anything I could ever imagine. —

“McCulloch and Robert Pineo, the second lawyer in the class action case, initially told Global News Joey Webber’s body was found inside his vehicle. However, the Webber family said this is incorrect and that the body was found inside the gunman’s mock police car, McCulloch explained.

“I now understand that Joey Webber was apparently persuaded into the gunman’s cruiser in Shubenacadie, where he was shot. His body was left in the cruiser and the gunman lit the cruiser alight, after which the gunman left in Joey Webber’s (Chevy) Tracker, alone,” McCulloch said.

Pineo told Global News the Webber family received information from the public that showed Webber’s body was transported by a tow truck from the crime scene near Shubenacadie.

Pineo said the RCMP had not informed the family of these details before they were contacted by members of the public.

“They received videos and photographs from just regular citizens that showed Joey’s body was left in (the) car for eight or nine hours and then transported on a tow truck,” Pineo said...”
Body of Nova Scotia shooting victim allegedly transported by tow truck
 
Placing Joey Webber in the cruiser is just plain evil. He was buying time for his getaway.....but getaway to where? To do what?
As details continue to emerge, I just don't know who and what to believe anymore. What other incidents such as this took place which we don't know about?
As the story gets stranger, I must admit, I can see why they would preserve the car as a crime scene. I do not think I have the stomach for police work.......
 
MistyWaters said:
Yikes, there is more to the story. I wonder did the psycho killer convince JW to get into his cruiser or did he just move his body after murdering him? Considering the amount of flames shooting into the sky from the burning cars shown in the bystander videos, how could’ve the RCMP known the identity of the burned victim who was found inside in order to tell the difference between a deceased Portapique killer who succumbed in a showdown with the female officer or an innocent, helpful bystander? I don’t believe for a moment the body just happened to be inside the rogue cruiser which the killer set ablaze - it was an act intended to deceive police. The diabolical actions of this killer is well beyond anything I could ever imagine. —

“McCulloch and Robert Pineo, the second lawyer in the class action case, initially told Global News Joey Webber’s body was found inside his vehicle. However, the Webber family said this is incorrect and that the body was found inside the gunman’s mock police car, McCulloch explained.

“I now understand that Joey Webber was apparently persuaded into the gunman’s cruiser in Shubenacadie, where he was shot. His body was left in the cruiser and the gunman lit the cruiser alight, after which the gunman left in Joey Webber’s (Chevy) Tracker, alone,” McCulloch said.
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Yikes is right @MistyWaters ! I was disturbed thinking he might have driven off with JW and now to hear that he left him in the fake cruiser seems even more calculated.

I find myself remembering the video of the gunman where he got out of his car to change out of his jacket and put on a safety vest.
I don't think he realized he was being caught by a security camera in that moment, so there would be no reason for him to pretend anything. He looked so very calm and deliberate. I wonder why he changed clothes. It could be something as simple as he was getting too warm, so he wanted the jacket off. But then, why put on the safety vest? Was he planning to direct a traffic scene?

We know that the security camera that caught this was about 650 metres south of the RCMP detachment at 982 Willow St. in Truro. He had literally just passed it one minute earlier. Did we ever get a clear answer as to whether he was able to listen in to police communications on a radio in his car? Would he have known about the planned meet up of Constables Morrison and Stevenson? Or was it sheer chance that he came across Const. Morrison about a half hour later? And when he encountered Const. Stevenson, I wonder if the gunman was the one that rammed into her car - not the other way around as was suggested early on.

Was he just making it up as he went along? Or was there some kind of overriding plan? He ditched his fake cruiser with a body inside and a fire set. He took off in JW's car which would further the potential belief that he had died in the fire. He dumped JW's car and switched to GG's car at her home - not out on the highway where people might have seen it happen. He had civilian clothes to change into, and change into them he did. Just before he was shot at the Big Stop in Enfield, he might have thought he was home free. He was in a car no one was looking for and wearing civilian clothing. I don't even know if I could imagine what might have happened next if he had not been shot.

MOO
 
Early on, I heard speculation his scorched earth behaviour was an indication he expected to die during the commission of his crimes. Reading the details of Joey Webber's fate, I now believe he had a getaway plan and it was in the opposite direction of where his crimes were committed. All those random events (roadside shootings etc) appear random to us since he did not know the people. To him, it was deliberate to tie down police resources elsewhere. As evil as his mind was, he was diabolically clever.

With the money he withdrew a few days before, he was heading somewhere, with a plan. I don't think the plan was more killing, it was to vanish.

All that is speculation. My mind is like a ping pong ball on this.....back and forth, back and forth. But the more I find out, the less likely it seems to me that this was ever going to be a murder suicide type event.
 
I think he had an exit plan as well as he believed himself to be invincible. What that plan might’ve been, we probably will never know because thankfully, an astute and observant tactical squad member put an end to that. But even by the simple act of the killer gassing up, he had a plan to travel onward to another destination. And good point, the nonchalant way the killer took off his jacket and put on the safety vest - all indications of a cool, clear head. Absolutely creepy.

My own opinion, after his local Portapique massacre the RCMP had every right to believe the killer took his own life as often happens. It would’ve taken days until his smouldering wooden buildings could be thoroughly searched for his body and the body of his common law wife, had she been murdered too.

Then comes the crash with Const Stevenson and I also do wonder if that was purely accidental. Did the killer swap his ID with JW’s because if roadblocks had been set up, if he had matching ID and registration, did he expect to pass himself off as JW? We know he stole Const Stevenson’s gun, what about any of her communication equipment? Then he murders Gina to switch vehicles once again. I’d be very surprised if he didn’t at least listen to radio reports that same morning.

As much as blame has been laid onto the laps of the RCMP, this is well beyond the typical madman scenario, unimaginable havoc occurring within 24 hours. No police force has ever been faced with such a diabolical rampage in Canada, in fact I’ve never heard of another example anywhere elsewhere that compares.

I can understand why families are angered at the lives of their loved ones lost at the hand of such a cold-hearted, vicious monster. I’m sure the RCMP members involved are angered and impacted too. How can anyone walk away, forget, then go on to routine, daily life? Even though they managed to put a stop to this guy there’s still no heroes, no satisfactory conclusion, only the killer knows what was going on in his head.
 
I believe it was stated that Constable Stevenson's gun had discharged. Quick thought on this......what if it was discharged but not by her? Did he kill her with his weapons, then use her gun to kill Webber? It would look, at first appearances, as though she died taking out the killer and everyone would applaud. Until further investigation showed otherwise.
 
newguy123 said:
I believe it was stated that Constable Stevenson's gun had discharged. Quick thought on this......what if it was discharged but not by her? Did he kill her with his weapons, then use her gun to kill Webber? It would look, at first appearances, as though she died taking out the killer and everyone would applaud. Until further investigation showed otherwise.
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Now that’s sure worth a thought.
 
newguy123 said:
Wow.......just shaking my head. I have no idea what procedures must be followed in such a circumstance, but this does not sound like something that should have happened. Perhaps I am old fashioned, but to me, the dead should be treated with dignity and respect, esp. in these circumstances. I can see inspecting the vehicle with the body inside at the scene. But to tow it away removes the context of the crime scene (as I see it) and makes this so very wrong. The indignity to his body is shameful.

It also shows that despite how much I think I know, I don't really know much here. I had always believed that Joey Webber stopped to help at the crash scene, was shot, and then probably removed from the vehicle and left on the road. That scenario is me filling in gaps with speculation. Never did I expect he was still in the vehicle, and if so, probably just shoved aside as "baggage" so the gunman could flee the scene.
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This is contained in the link to the CBC article but I copied this quote:

Gail Anderson, a forensic researcher and professor at Simon Fraser University's School of Criminology, said working a crime scene is a very lengthy process and in this case the crime scene would be the vehicle.

"Removing the body immediately may seem preferable from a compassionate point of view but would most likely destroy very crucial evidence," she said in an email Thursday.

Moving the vehicle keeps the crime scene more secure, and can be more respectful, since it takes the victim "out of the eyes of the media and public," she said.
 
paganini said:
From day one, there have been a couple of "family members" who have raged against everything and everyone who does not passively accept their profound, and seemingly, boundless outrage about the death and manner of death of their loved one. If the killer were alive, I expect they would tear him limb from limb. They have attacked the spouse, and anyone who tries to tone down their rhetoric, or suggests being stuck in rage for months is not healthy. And, they have found a law firm to amplify their rage.

I don't know what police procedure is in such circumstances (as a vehicle being a murder scene). I am reminded, however, of seeing vehicles going down the highway on the back of a flatbed with the vehicle draped in a tarp. I also recall a woman commenting in a social media thread that her husband did some of the towing work on April 19, and that it was pretty awful. It may be that there are circumstances in which there is no way to extract a body without traumatising everyone who witnesses it, or that for other reasons, removing the vehicle to a private, enclosed location is actually undertaken to preserve the dignity of the victim. We do not even know if it happened as alleged.

Finally, even if there were barriers put up around this vehicle so that the body could be removed, one can imagine someone would have made a video which got into the media. Whenever I see those videos, I think of the victims' families having to deal with them over and over again, running on local, national, and international news. This victim had young children, even a baby. Some day in the not too distant future, they will likely be looking on the internet for information about how their father died. The fact the vehicle was removed to a private location and there is no video of a screened vehicle by the side of the road and a coroner's van sticking out is the kindest thing that could have happened for those children. Had their father had a choice, perhaps even he would have been less concerned about what happened to him in these moments, than the potential harm to those left behind.

It's is too bad that this had to be dragged into the media for the sake of another go at the RCMP.
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Please don’t make judgement on family members. Anger is very much part of the grieving process. This will be a very long process for them. Grieving is individual to everyone and doesn’t have an exact timeline.
 
I admit my first reaction was from the heart, not the head. I had visions of Webber's body being jostled and such as a tow truck hooked up the vehicle, tilted it up, and off it went with him bouncing around inside. I would guess the same procedure happened with Heidi Stevenson?
 
Not sure if there is a similar institution in NS, but here is an article about a state of the art forensics facility in ON. Seems it is valuable for evidentiary purposes to remove the vehicle with the victim still inside. I remember at the beginning it was said police were investigating the possibility the shooter did not act alone. As much as it is horrifying for families to learn of their loved one's body remaining in the burned out vehicle, it must have been important to help to determine what transpired. imo

When the province’s sprawling new $1 billion Forensic Services and Coroner’s Complex opens this fall at Keele St. and Wilson Ave., it will mark the first time investigators will be able to remove a car from a crime scene with a body still inside; bring it here, where scientists and forensic specialists can remove the body; and collect evidence — all in a controlled environment with cameras documenting their every move.
New Ontario forensics facility brings crime under a world-class spotlight
 
As I admitted, my gut reaction was from the heart and not the head, and subsequent postings from members here have helped show me the investigative reasoning behind this towing issue. What a difference knowing the thinking behind it makes to how one views this matter.
Now that I understand better, the reason for litigation on this issue is all the more baffling. Did the police not explain this to the victim's family? I can see initial reactions being super charged with emotion, as were mine, but knowing this is standard procedure and done for forensic reasons, I defer to their methods. Unless this legal action is taken for emotional reasons, what am I missing?
 
newguy123 said:
As I admitted, my gut reaction was from the heart and not the head, and subsequent postings from members here have helped show me the investigative reasoning behind this towing issue. What a difference knowing the thinking behind it makes to how one views this matter.
Now that I understand better, the reason for litigation on this issue is all the more baffling. Did the police not explain this to the victim's family? I can see initial reactions being super charged with emotion, as were mine, but knowing this is standard procedure and done for forensic reasons, I defer to their methods. Unless this legal action is taken for emotional reasons, what am I missing?
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Whatever the reason, until the class action is certified by a Judge, or not, maybe it’s no surprise why the RCMP are providing no further public updates, if everything is going to be used against them. Perhaps not all the families of the victims are as angered toward to RCMP, but for those who are involved in the class action lawsuit, I doubt any communication or explanations are happening at this time considering the pending litigation. I do hope their attorneys have their clients best interests at heart, rather than taking advantage of their grief.

This example of “deliberately misleading” is quite perplexing IMO, given the RCMP have always been very clear throughout the prior updates that the investigation is still ongoing. —

“The victims’ families allege in their proposed class action lawsuit that the RCMP “deliberately misled” the public when Campbell said no one was pulled over by the gunman while he was driving a replica police cruiser with fake RCMP decals and an authentic lightbar mounted on top. Police have described the vehicle as a “very real look-alike.”...

“On April 24, RCMP Supt. Darren Campbell said during a press conference that a witness saw the gunman pull over and shoot a victim while driving a mock police vehicle. The gunman then continued down the same road where he shot and killed another person in their vehicle, Campbell said.

Campbell told a different version of these events at a press conference six weeks later.

“I can confirm through the investigation and witness accounts that the gunman did not use the RCMP replica vehicle to pull over any of the victims who were in their vehicles at the time,” he said at a June 4 press conference.

Campbell explained that this latest description was based on eyewitness accounts that contradicted what he said earlier and that investigators had since changed their interpretation of what happened.

“The reality is that people give us information and that information is interpreted,” Campbell said. “Since that time, it’s been confirmed through the investigative team that the eyewitnesses at the scene do not describe that the gunman was pulling over any vehicles.”
‘It’s hurtful’: Families of Nova Scotia shooting victims say RCMP keeping them in the dark

and BBM
“Tony Merchant, lead lawyer in a proposed class action lawsuit against the RCMP by families of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, said the type of case launched in Nova Scotia — one that doesn’t include RCMP employees as plaintiffs — has never been certified by a court. But this type of case is new, he said, and the process can take years.”
 
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