Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, Oct 2017 #1

[Gunslinging Granny]

This whole situation is a very perplexing picture of "why", on so many levels. The circumstances of how and why the couple went to Afghanistan remind me a lot of the Roxana Saberi debacle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxana_Saberi

RSBM
Are you referring to released Somalian prisoner Amanda Lindhout? Her background and situation are similar.

 

[momshrink]

I don't think they did either, but it would be highly coincidental if the one time that Caitlan and the children were outside just happened to be the time a CIA drone was passing. I have no doubt the family went through hell, but I also suspect that JB is not being honest.

I've also considered his possible motivations for lying -- and, indeed, for talking so indiscriminately about private details, true or false. I honestly can't remember another case in which the victim of a terrible trauma has been so bizarrely indiscreet. So, why is he talking, and giving people tours of the house and pictures of his wife's hospital room? My guess is that, knowing that there may be those suspicious of him, he thinks it serves his interests to play up the gory (and perhaps exaggerated) details of his incarceration.

I wonder if part of what is behind JB's parents statement about his mental health is discrepancies between what he is saying and what the kids are doing and saying. The four year old should be old enough to express himself at least a bit, even if we assume he is delayed because of the restricted world in which he has been living. And the parents would know whether the two year old is really showing the extreme reactions JB is claiming, or if the 5-month old is actually showing signs of trauma.

There is the issue of his disclosing very personal information about his wife and children, not about himself. I'm certain this entire family suffered, but I wonder how chummy he tried to be with their captors. He's just so self-focused and seemingly unaware of others' comfort zone, IMO.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I'm really amazed that she even survived four pregnancies, and that three of her children are physically (seemingly) healthy. Maybe the children were treated better by the captors, or maybe the parents always gave them the best parts of the meals they got. Both the parents looked white as a sheet, with dark circles around the eyes, in the photos after their release. They probably have several severe vitamin and mineral deficiencies and are possibly anemic. The last two pregnancies must have been especially weakening for her. At the moment she might simply be too weak and worn out to think about anything much, or make any major decisions, and just wants to eat, sleep, rest, relax ... etc. He is of course physically in better shape because he did not grow four other human beings inside of him.

So I'd say, let's give her some time to get physically better first.

We will find out her side sooner or later. We just have to be patient.

 

[Hiandmighty]

RSBM
Are you referring to released Somalian prisoner Amanda Lindhout? Her background and situation are similar.

Wow. She looks so much better than when I last saw a picture of her.... much healthier

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Lindhout

 

[Hiandmighty]

Who were the three who were back packing in Pakistan I think.... reminds me of them. I seem to remember them telling Oprah it was much prettier than people imagine...

 

[otto]

Of course she would be eligible - she has no income. Maybe this is clearer - here are a list of benefits provided by medicaid:

https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/benefits/list-of-benefits/index.html

PA has offices in each county to assist with filling out the forms for government assistance.



http://www.dhs.pa.gov/citizens/healthcaremedicalassistance/index.htm

Thank you for linking this. I notice that psychiatric care, which is what she and her children need most, is in the optional list. That's not good.

 

[bears10]

Thank you for linking this. I notice that psychiatric care, which is what she and her children need most, is in the optional list. That's not good.

If you look thru the other links I posted, the PA specific links, you’ll see PA does offer mental health care. I do think they’d be more than fine here in the US. Unfortunately I don’t know if JB would even allow them to seek mental health care in Canada even if it’s available to them.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

Linda Boyle uses the past tense when she talks about Josh – not because she has given up hope – but because she thinks he will return a different man. “He was a very, very proud person, which was definitely his biggest failing, and he knew it,” she says.
http://trueviralnews.com/delivering-his-own-son-by-flashlight-kidnapped-canadians-correspondence-gives-glimpse-of-life-in-captivity-toronto-star/

 

[Intermezzo]

Joshua Boyle, family held in Pakistan after kidnapping in Afghanistan: CIA Oct 19,2017

https://globalnews.ca/news/3813633/joshua-boyle-caitlan-coleman-pakistan/

After being kidnapped by Islamist militants in Afghanistan, Joshua Boyle and his family were held inside neighboring Pakistan for five years before being freed last week, the head of the CIA said on Thursday.

 

[Intermezzo]

Gurski: Questions that remain unanswered about Joshua Boyle. Oct 17, 2017

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...ons-that-remain-unanswered-about-joshua-boyle

Unfortunately, some in this country have been less-than-generous in their remarks towards the family. As the Ottawa Citizen’s deputy editor Keith Bonnell wrote on Monday, comments have been made that eschew pity and suggest that Boyle is at best a narcissist and at worse a terrorist.

Questions that remain unanswered This is not in a spirit of schadenfreude but rather a need to learn more about what actually happened and about the actors involved.

 

[Lilibet]

I don’t recall reading this story last week with Boyle’s parents’ comments. Apologies if it’s been posted. The following quote jumped out at me...

“It was the oddest thing, it was just Josh all over again in terms of the voice,” Linda Boyle said of the phone conversation.

“We kinda laughed, still bossy Josh. So that is a very good thing, that they have remained strong throughout it … He’s a man of character. His values are rigid and he will not change for anything, and that’s worked well for both of them, because they’re both like that. And that’s what got them through, it’s knowing what they believed and what they knew was right and wrong.”
​

https://globalnews.ca/news/3801502/joshua-boyle-parents-forgive-foolishness-family-readjust-canada/
BBM

I think what his mother says, if true, tells us that Cait will probably stay with him, unless she has changed. This quote was before they had returned home, so time will tell.

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

What did Joshua Boyle mean when he said that if the Taliban does not give him“justice” for his kidnapping, he will “turn to other outlets to seek justice"? What other outlets does Joshua Boyle have? Does he have terrorist friends in "high places" that will avenge his kidnapping?

 

[bears10]

I don’t recall reading this story last week with Boyle’s parents’ comments. Apologies if it’s been posted. The following quote jumped out at me...

“It was the oddest thing, it was just Josh all over again in terms of the voice,” Linda Boyle said of the phone conversation.

“We kinda laughed, still bossy Josh. So that is a very good thing, that they have remained strong throughout it … He’s a man of character. His values are rigid and he will not change for anything, and that’s worked well for both of them, because they’re both like that. And that’s what got them through, it’s knowing what they believed and what they knew was right and wrong.”
​

https://globalnews.ca/news/3801502/joshua-boyle-parents-forgive-foolishness-family-readjust-canada/
BBM

I think what his mother says, if true, tells us that Cait will probably stay with him, unless she has changed. This quote was before they had returned home, so time will tell.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the irony of his mom saying "His values are rigid and he will not change for anything, and that’s worked well for both of them, because they’re both like that". Yeah, him having "rigid values" that he refuses to change has really worked wonders by getting them kidnapped and held in captivity by the Taliban for 5 years.

 

[Lilibet]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the irony of his mom saying "His values are rigid and he will not change for anything, and that’s worked well for both of them, because they’re both like that". Yeah, him having "rigid values" that he refuses to change has really worked wonders by getting them kidnapped and held in captivity by the Taliban for 5 years.

While I agree that their rigid values/beliefs certainly contributed to their kidnapping and captivity, it appears that his mother was referring to their beliefs “getting them through” the experience of being imprisoned. It’s well known that people with strong beliefs survived their experience in the Nazi concentration camps in better shape overall than those with nothing to live for.

https://books.google.com/books?id=k...on camps of those with strong beliefs&f=false

I expect that her intitial conversation with Josh gave her the feeling that he hadn’t been changed by the experience and was the same Josh as before because his strong values helped them survive. Now that they’re home, it seems that his parents see a difference. I have a feeling they’re just seeing a more extreme version of Josh that seems more emotionally unstable than before. Yes, their strong beliefs may have helped them get through the experience, and worked well for them in that context, but now that they’re home, it remains to be seen how they’ve been affected and what course their lives will take. I expect that they are even more determined to live according to whatever their rigid values entail. That’s why I doubt that Cait will leave him. His antipathy toward the U.S. government is quite concerning. He seems to be an “injustice/wound collector” which is a dangerous state of mind.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201304/wound-collectors

 

[Lilibet]

What did Joshua Boyle mean when he said that if the Taliban does not give him“justice” for his kidnapping, he will “turn to other outlets to seek justice"? What other outlets does Joshua Boyle have? Does he have terrorist friends in "high places" that will avenge his kidnapping?

Josh’s blustery words remind me of Shakespeare’s description of life by Macbeth (Act 5 Scene 5)...

“...It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

https://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/tomorrow-tomorrow-tomorrow

 

[momshrink]

Gurski: Questions that remain unanswered about Joshua Boyle. Oct 17, 2017

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...ne who knew Joshua before he married Caitlin.

 

[bears10]

While I agree that their rigid values/beliefs certainly contributed to their kidnapping and captivity, it appears that his mother was referring to their beliefs “getting them through” the experience of being imprisoned. It’s well known that people with strong beliefs survived their experience in the Nazi concentration camps in better shape overall than those with nothing to live for.

https://books.google.com/books?id=k...on camps of those with strong beliefs&f=false

I expect that her intitial conversation with Josh gave her the feeling that he hadn’t been changed by the experience and was the same Josh as before because his strong values helped them survive. Now that they’re home, it seems that his parents see a difference. I have a feeling they’re just seeing a more extreme version of Josh that seems more emotionally unstable than before. Yes, their strong beliefs may have helped them get through the experience, and worked well for them in that context, but now that they’re home, it remains to be seen how they’ve been affected and what course their lives will take. I expect that they are even more determined to live according to whatever their rigid values entail. That’s why I doubt that Cait will leave him. His antipathy toward the U.S. government is quite concerning. He seems to be an “injustice/wound collector” which is a dangerous state of mind.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201304/wound-collectors

I understood what she was getting at, which is why I thought it was an ironic phrase to use. Because those same rigid beliefs are what landed them in such a terrible situation in the first place.

 

[K_Z]

Regarding Caitlan's children born in captivity-- a competent attorney, either in Canada or the U.S., will be able to begin to establish identity and citizenship documentation for the children pretty rapidly. Within days to weeks of their arrival. Their situation, and that of their parents, has been so well documented for so long, that this identification documentation process will, IMO, move rather smoothly. I think they will likely have dual Canadian/ US citizenship. That will give them, and Caitlan, lots of flexibility as to moving across the border, if or when Caitlan wants to do so.

I think Joshua Boyle likely has limits on his ability to freely enter the U.S. because of his behavior, ties, and previous history.

No links, but my common sense informs me that Joshua Boyle will likely be under very close observation/ monitoring, and scrutiny, for many years by both Canadian and U.S. authorities. I don't think it's impossible that he will eventually face some serious charges. This isn't a case of mere immature stupidity/ hubris/ naviete (like Lindhout and Saberi, IMO).

I wish Caitlan would leave him, but I doubt she will.

Not sure if this was posted-- didn't see it earlier in the thread. Press release statement from U.S. SOS Tillerson from Oct 12. It is interestingly "non committal" toward JB and CC, and instead praises diplomatic relationships. Really-- not a single word of support or praise toward CC/ JB, or even that they were grateful or welcomed home. It is what is not said, IMO, that is revealing. Some might say that is typical for a SOS release, but IMO,it is very linguistically stark in its comments on the rescued hostages, who are typically referred to in slightly more diplomatically sympathetic and warm words. For example, only that they are "safe and secure". I understand not criticizing in any way the Pakistani government, but it is odd/ revealing that the hostages are minimized almost as objects, not a family with small children.

On the Rescue of Caitlan Coleman, Joshua Boyle, and Their Family From Terrorist Captivity

Press Statement
Rex W. Tillerson
Secretary of State
Washington, DC
October 12, 2017

The United States Government, working in conjunction with the Government of Pakistan, has secured the release of the Boyle-Coleman family from captivity in Pakistan.

In 2012, U.S. citizen Caitlan Coleman and Canadian citizen Joshua Boyle were taken hostage by the Haqqani network. Their three children were subsequently born in captivity. Today they are safe and secure.

I applaud the innumerable lines of effort from across the U.S. Government. I’m particularly proud of Ambassador Hale and his Mission Islamabad team for their engagement with Pakistan. These efforts reflect the best of what America can accomplish.

The United States also expresses our deep gratitude to the Government of Pakistan and the Pakistani Army for their cooperation. President Trump's new South Asia strategy recognizes the important role Pakistan needs to play to bring stability and ultimately peace to the region. The United States is hopeful that Pakistan’s actions will further a U.S.-Pakistan relationship marked by growing commitments to counterterrorism operations and stronger ties in all other respects.

https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2017/10/274751.htm

 

[otto]

It's interesting that the US doesn't acknowledge Canada in the release.

"“Canada has been actively engaged on Mr. Boyle’s case at all levels, and we will continue to support him and his family now that they have returned.

“At this time, we ask that the privacy of Mr. Boyle’s family be respected.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-aff...a_welcomes_arrivalofjoshuaboyleandfamily.html

 

[bluesneakers]

It's interesting that the US doesn't acknowledge Canada in the release.

"“Canada has been actively engaged on Mr. Boyle’s case at all levels, and we will continue to support him and his family now that they have returned.

“At this time, we ask that the privacy of Mr. Boyle’s family be respected.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-aff...a_welcomes_arrivalofjoshuaboyleandfamily.html

And that release doesn't mention the USA. I wonder what's up.