CAR SEAT discussion

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It appears the convo went to questionning the head direction of "Stoddard while addressing the judge", not the direction of which way RH turned his head while dropping off the lightbulbs. That's where it got confusing. Also, I disagree that RH turned his head toward the windshield. Going to find that part of the video now as if that were the case, I am not even sure why it would even be mentioned.
I thought he was saying RH purposely turned his head so as not to see then child or the car seat.
RH did say he was worried about what Cooper would look like. I think that is what Stoddard was pointing out.

Maybe the stench hit him?



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I thought this too, but Stoddard was looking at the judge who was seated to his left.

That's the direction RH would have turned when he stuck his head in the car to put the bulbs in and that means he would have been turning toward the windshield and not toward the car seat.

I thought he was saying RH purposely turned his head so as not to see then child or the car seat.
RH did say he was worried about what Cooper would look like. I think that is what Stoddard was pointing out.

Maybe the stench hit him?



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That's not what I am hearing at approx. the 24:00 min. mark here. Does not indicate which direction RH turns his head at all. However, he does indicate "his head is in there".
 
That's not what I am hearing at approx. the 24:00 min. mark here. Does not indicate which direction RH turns his head at all. However, he does indicate "his head is in there".

I posted in the other thread (but it didn't get moved over) that you only get the testimony on that part of the youtube video. Somewhere, there's a video where you can see what Stoddard is doing when he's testifying about it. Maybe elsewhere in the Youtube video or on the WAT version. He doesn't SAY he's turning left, you can actually see him do it.
 
That's not what I am hearing at approx. the 24:00 min. mark here. Does not indicate which direction RH turns his head at all. However, he does indicate "his head is in there".
I watched it live and I had a different camera angle. Set. Stoddard was motioning his head towards the judge. I found where he is talking at 24:00 , but it doesn't show Stoddard or the Judge...

Sigh. Frustrating.
One day I will start making case files for reference maybe. I hate having a bunch of junk that I may never use again on my computer.
There will always be something that I will kick myself in for not grabbing.

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During the PCH there was mention (I think) that RH said he (Cooper?) must have fallen asleep.I wonder if they might try to say that his head wouldn't have been visible in the car seat due to being slumped forward or to the side?
Has it been said how much of Cooper should have been visible in relation to the car seat that was small for his size?
Just wondering. I do think RH is guilty based on what I know so far.
IMO
 
I watched it live and I had a different camera angle. Set. Stoddard was motioning his head towards the judge. I found where he is talking at 24:00 , but it doesn't show Stoddard or the Judge...

Sigh. Frustrating.
One day I will start making case files for reference maybe. I hate having a bunch of junk that I may never use again on my computer.
There will always be something that I will kick myself in for not grabbing.

All posts are MOO. Sent via Insignia Flex Tablet.

It's on video somewhere because I've seen it recently -- not when I watched live.
 
I posted in the other thread (but it didn't get moved over) that you only get the testimony on that part of the youtube video. Somewhere, there's a video where you can see what Stoddard is doing when he's testifying about it. Maybe elsewhere in the Youtube video or on the WAT version. He doesn't SAY he's turning left, you can actually see him do it.
Right. Left. Lol

I mean I agree.

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During the PCH there was mention (I think) that RH said he (Cooper?) must have fallen asleep.I wonder if they might try to say that his head wouldn't have been visible in the car seat due to being slumped forward or to the side?
Has it been said how much of Cooper should have been visible in relation to the car seat that was small for his size?
Just wondering. I do think RH is guilty based on what I know so far.
IMO

regarding the BBM:

That was brought to my attention the other day (conversation in real life, not online) that if Cooper was asleep his head may have been tilted enough to be below top of the car seat.

I just assumed Cooper was sitting upright. Being awake or asleep, I thought Cooper's head was above top of car seat.

It's interesting to hear others perspectives, and how it can be thought of - I had never thought of the position of Coopers head, and if that would make a difference. But I know for some that it does.

my opinion, etc. :moo:
 
regarding the BBM:

That was brought to my attention the other day (conversation in real life, not online) that if Cooper was asleep his head may have been tilted enough to be below top of the car seat.

I just assumed Cooper was sitting upright. Being awake or asleep, I thought Cooper's head was above top of car seat.

It's interesting to hear others perspectives, and how it can be thought of - I had never thought of the position of Coopers head, and if that would make a difference. But I know for some that it does.

my opinion, etc. :moo:

I didn't think about possible head positions either until the PCH. I'm not even clear on who RH said must have fallen asleep,himself or Cooper.
I'm thinking RH suggested Cooper might have fallen asleep.
At any rate my fear is that they may use that to cause doubt about Cooper being visible.
IMO
 
I posted in the other thread (but it didn't get moved over) that you only get the testimony on that part of the youtube video. Somewhere, there's a video where you can see what Stoddard is doing when he's testifying about it. Maybe elsewhere in the Youtube video or on the WAT version. He doesn't SAY he's turning left, you can actually see him do it.

Yes, I remember Stoddard turning his head to look at the judge but didn't take that as a demonstration while referring to RH. Maybe it's me just misunderstanding but if you find that piece of the tape, please post it by all means.
 
regarding the BBM:

That was brought to my attention the other day (conversation in real life, not online) that if Cooper was asleep his head may have been tilted enough to be below top of the car seat.

I just assumed Cooper was sitting upright. Being awake or asleep, I thought Cooper's head was above top of car seat.

It's interesting to hear others perspectives, and how it can be thought of - I had never thought of the position of Coopers head, and if that would make a difference. But I know for some that it does.

my opinion, etc. :moo:

The infant car seats tilt back so far my son's head never fell forward in them. In his convertible, when he sleeps, his head comes forward slightly and to one side, but if his head was three inches above the shell you'd still be able to see it in an infant car seat. The Chicco Keyfit is pretty narrow at the top between the side padding. I don't think there's anyway a two year old's head to get below the shell, even asleep and falling forward.
 
I didn't think about possible head positions either until the PCH. I'm not even clear on who RH said must have fallen asleep,himself or Cooper.
I'm thinking RH suggested Cooper might have fallen asleep.
At any rate my fear is that they may use that to cause doubt about Cooper being visible.
IMO


More car seat testing should be done :gaah: :happydance:

All joking aside - I do think this is an important part of the case.
Any type of questioning or angle that someone brings up in defense - prosecution should prove with absolute it could not of happened.
Prosecution has the burden to prove intent - if all possible scenarios that may show otherwise can be thwarted, the better probability of guilty verdict.

my opinion, etc., yada yada yada :moo:

ETA: after posting this, I read in the new thread about the charges, and the prosecution does not have to prove intent - hmm, go figure. Wow, their case is pretty simple, there's no doubt he killed his son, it was a question of intent. Accident or Murder, does not matter, so why all this hoopla :dunno:
 
Please do not misunderstand me. I do not buy that he forgot, because I dont believe Cooper would have been silent the entire time. Which obviously cant be proved. So what does that leave? It leaves the big picture, but you and I both know the defense will have an excuse for everything.

They will probably call the entire day a series of unfortunate events. The most obvious to me will be that he was late to work, and I can surmise although he did think it appropriate to stop and eat that he did it only for Cooper because he had already missed breakfast at daycare. Then they will probably claim when he got back to the car and realized the time he became panicked over getting there as soon as possible. Almost everyone can relate to that!

See what I am saying? The big picture isnt so powerful when each negative thing has an opposing innocent explanation that creates a lot of reasonable doubt.

But that's not the way reasonable doubt and weighing the evidence is supposed to work. It is imperative to not only examine each piece of evidence, but also how all the pieces fit or do not fit together.
I think in this era of crime tv and the Internet which makes us all "experts" on everything, people have really lost crucial sight of how our system of law really works and the use of juries and critical thinking skills and common sense.

Most murder cases involving private defense counsel and juries, do not have smoking guns.

Even public defender jury trial murder cases don't involve smoking guns often. Many cases are purely circumstantial. Which is why we have juries. If there was direct evidence- eyewitnesses, essentially, or incriminating suspect statements, the case would likely plead out quickly or just become a penalty phase case or a case regarding sanity or self defense.

But I also Think people tend to misunderstand what circumstantial means. For example, DNA and fingerprint evidence is circumstantial. So could be a smoking gun for that matter! Circumstantial evidence is often quite powerful and direct evidence can be quite misleading. In fact, juries are often needed for direct evidence cases as well. http://www.theforensicteacher.com/Evidence.html

But the bbottom line is that finding alternate explanations for evidence may work with one piece of evidence, maybe two, but when we find it necessary to find alternate explanations for three, four, five, six, seven or more different pieces of evidence, rational, logical adults begin to see it can't all be coincidence and instead, begin to see incrimination.
 
What do we have in this case?
Witnesses and video proof he was at Chic Fil a.
Video proof of him in the parking lot at work 3 times during the day.
Publix video.
Home Depot video.
Sounds like a great alibi.
Then when the discovery takes place he pulls into a strip mall BEHIND the businesses, where LOCKED delivery doors are and few if any video cameras. He doesn't call 911 because he assumes someone else is and calls who?
Just walks away and leaves his child on the ground?

Luckily the AJC newspaper chopper was in the air and very close. They got video of him walking around and pulling leaves off the trees. Before EMT's got there.
All the video evidence would help me if I were a juror.



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I just posted a response to this video in the Car Seat Thread - I will not side track from this thread :blushing:
except to say :blushing:
that they used a 2013 suv and not 2011. It's at the 26 or 27 second mark in video.

I would link my post here - but unsure how to do that from another thread.

my opinion etc. :moo:

Thanks for correcting; the tweet headline claimed it was same model car and carseat--sorry. Apparently there was no significant difference in interior dimension of the car, though.

I watched that part of the pch again and it seems like Stoddard is saying that RH deliberately turned his head AWAY from the car seat. Anyone else see it differently?

For the most part, I found Stoddard's testimony direct, specific, and helpful. Some parts of it, though, I found to be vague to the point of essentially being incomprehensible. This usually happened in those parts where he interrupted himself to restate something better (and didn't)--and, as a result, his statements could be taken to mean whatever one is inclined to believe. Not sure if that was purposeful or not; I mean, why bring up the specific detail that he turned his head if you're not also going to say in which direction?

Anyway...the direction of the turn of head when RH tossed in the lightbulbs is inconclusive to me. IMO, it really can't be known from what we've seen/heard so far. It'll get nailed down better in trial if relevant.

regarding the BBM:

That was brought to my attention the other day (conversation in real life, not online) that if Cooper was asleep his head may have been tilted enough to be below top of the car seat.

I just assumed Cooper was sitting upright. Being awake or asleep, I thought Cooper's head was above top of car seat.

It's interesting to hear others perspectives, and how it can be thought of - I had never thought of the position of Coopers head, and if that would make a difference. But I know for some that it does.

my opinion, etc. :moo:

I didn't think about possible head positions either until the PCH. I'm not even clear on who RH said must have fallen asleep,himself or Cooper.
I'm thinking RH suggested Cooper might have fallen asleep.
At any rate my fear is that they may use that to cause doubt about Cooper being visible.
IMO

To me, the whole issue of whether his head could tilt in an undersize carseat is a pretty moot point...it is simply incomprehensible that the child could've fallen asleep in the 40 seconds it took between buckling up after breakfast and the left turn needed to go to daycare. I've raised two kids, babysat more. I know the sleep patterns of toddlers, and a half minute (time to left turn) after buckling up in the morning is not a credible amount of time for a healthy, undrugged child to fall asleep--that's their bright, alert time of day. Nor is two minutes, if you want to stretch it to the time it took to travel to his workplace. Remember, too, state testimony said Cooper always arrived to daycare bright, happy, and alert.

(Plus, it's a stretch of credibility that RH would claim both that he didn't notice Cooper and that Cooper was asleep. Can't know your child fell asleep if you didn't see his eyes closed, hear light snoring, or otherwise notice him. That's called CYA in my book.)
 
What do we have in this case?
Witnesses and video proof he was at Chic Fil a.
Video proof of him in the parking lot at work 3 times during the day.
Publix video.
Home Depot video.
Sounds like a great alibi.
Then when the discovery takes place he pulls into a strip mall BEHIND the businesses, where LOCKED delivery doors are and few if any video cameras. He doesn't call 911 because he assumes someone else is and calls who?
Just walks away and leaves his child on the ground?

Luckily the AJC newspaper chopper was in the air and very close. They got video of him walking around and pulling leaves off the trees. Before EMT's got there.
All the video evidence would help me if I were a juror.



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Funny that you mention videos - with all the video evidence it should be an easy clarification of what happened.
The funny part to me - it reminded me of all the discussion going on about the bailiff talking into RH's right ear and his reaction.
That was on video too, and it was hard to get a unified opinion or agree to what was seen.

btw - Thank you for the information, did not realize how much surveillance they have, should be a good thing :yesss:
 
Thanks for correcting; the tweet headline claimed it was same model car and carseat--sorry. Apparently there was no significant difference in interior dimension of the car, though.



For the most part, I found Stoddard's testimony direct, specific, and helpful. Some parts of it, though, I found to be vague to the point of essentially being incomprehensible. This usually happened in those parts where he interrupted himself to restate something better (and didn't)--and, as a result, his statements could be taken to mean whatever one is inclined to believe. Not sure if that was purposeful or not; I mean, why bring up the specific detail that he turned his head if you're not also going to say in which direction?

Anyway...the direction of the turn of head when RH tossed in the lightbulbs is inconclusive to me. IMO, it really can't be known from what we've seen/heard so far. It'll get nailed down better in trial if relevant.





To me, the whole issue of whether his head could tilt in an undersize carseat is a pretty moot point...it is simply incomprehensible that the child could've fallen asleep in the 40 seconds it took between buckling up after breakfast and the left turn needed to go to daycare. I've raised two kids, babysat more. I know the sleep patterns of toddlers, and a half minute (time to left turn) after buckling up in the morning is not a credible amount of time for a healthy, undrugged child to fall asleep--that's their bright, alert time of day. Nor is two minutes, if you want to stretch it to the time it took to travel to his workplace. Remember, too, state testimony said Cooper always arrived to daycare bright, happy, and alert.

(Plus, it's a stretch of credibility that RH would claim both that he didn't notice Cooper and that Cooper was asleep. Can't know your child fell asleep if you didn't see his eyes closed, hear light snoring, or otherwise notice him. That's called CYA in my book.)

I agree.The must have been asleep was RH grasping for something/anything to explain how or why he didn't notice Cooper in the car seat.
IMO
 
Ajc has video of him at the scene?


I missed this! Do you have a link handy?
 
STODDARD: Cooper was in that morning and most of the morning Cooper was in a rear-facing child seat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And that rear-facing child seat, was that behind the passengers' side, behind the driver's side or in the middle of the backseat?

STODDARD: It was in the middle of the backseat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: How far or how close -- what was the distance between the driver's seat approximately and the head area end of the car seat?

STODDARD: Six inches at the most.



UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Your Honor, i would enter states exhibits 1 and 2.

UNIDENTIFIED DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No objection.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Admitted without objection.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: First, before publishing states exhibit 1 to the judge, we explain, can you actually see from outside the car looking through the window the car seat before you even get into the car?

STODDARD: You can.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And states exhibit 2, does that look like where the car seat is in proximity to the driver in that car?

STODDARD: Yes, it does.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Is that consistent with your description of inches?

STODDARD: Yes.

_---------_-------_---------

STODDARD: Cooper was in that morning and most of the morning Cooper was in a rear-facing child seat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And that rear-facing child seat, was that behind the passengers' side, behind the driver's side or in the middle of the backseat?

STODDARD: It was in the middle of the backseat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: How far or how close -- what was the distance between the driver's seat approximately and the head area end of the car seat?

STODDARD: Six inches at the most.*

----------_-----_----
UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Did he take anything to work with him that day?

STODDARD: Yes, he did.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: What did he take with him to work?

STODDARD: He had a large computer bag.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Did he tell you where he reached to get that bag?

STODDARD: The large computer bag sits in front of the passenger's seat in the front of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Which way would he have had to turn to pick that up? STODDARD: He would have had to turn to his right, lean over the

center console and pick up the computer bag there the right side of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And what would have been right there?

STODDARD: It would have been Cooper's car seat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Now, you're talking about -- we've seen the pictures of Cooper's car seat. I guess you know that -- how tall, how long Cooper was at the time of death.

STODDARD: Yes. I did.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Did you get some type of demonstrative aid to help you and law enforcement see how a child would fit into that car seat?

STODDARD: We did.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: How would Cooper's head have appeared in that car seat?

STODDARD: The mannequin we chose was, you know, the same size. The head was clearly visible poking up over the car seat.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And did that demonstrative aid, was that shorter than Cooper?

STODDARD: Yes.

-----------------------+-------
UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: I'm going to show you what i've already marked for identification purposes and shown to defense counsel states exhibits 1 and 2.

May i approach, Judge?

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Thank you.

Do you recognize states exhibits 1 and 2?

STODDARD: Yes. These are photos it appears from the crime scene at Akers Mill.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And are do those fairly and accurately represent the car and the car seat at the scene where the car was left?

STODDARD: They do.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Your Honor, i would enter states exhibits 1 and 2.

UNIDENTIFIED DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No objection.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Admitted without objection.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: First, before publishing states exhibit 1 to the judge, we explain, can you actually see from outside the car looking through the window the car seat before you even get into the car?

STODDARD: You can.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: And states exhibit 2, does that look like where the car seat is in proximity to the driver in that car?

STODDARD: Yes, it does.

UNIDENTIFIED PROSECUTOR: Is that consistent with your description of inches?

STODDARD: Yes.*





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