CASCU Analysis of Crime

[Solace]

Good point. But she meant one killer and a confidant, not one stager and a confidant. You can be a confidant by helping the killer stage the scene to get away with the murder.

And I still don't see an innocent way for John's fibers to be on undies JB never wore while conscious/alive, and after she had been wiped down by the stager/redresser. Any fibers innocently there by transfer from JB's hands aren't going to be there after the stager/redresser changes her to bigger size undies and wipes her off.

The fibers are on the underwear or on JonBenet?

 

[JMO8778]

So if her fake sexual assault was cleaned up and hidden away, why leave the garrote in place, that could have been easily removed and replaced by the nylon ligature, rashomon speculates its purpose was to add a bizarre sexual element to the crime-scene?

I agree w rash in a way,it was bizarre enough to leave on so as to think a parent couldn't have done it.But I don't think it necessarily means it was meant to look a sexual element though,in the last staging.. at first it was,in combo w how the ligatures were tied,but JR *forgot to change them to where they were tightly bound,and I do think that's why he lied and said they were tied tightly...he forgot to redo them as part of the next staging or rather,the restaging !

Was the garrote added after the ransom note was written or before, speculating it appears to have been applied afterwards?

.

what order do you think it was done,bc here's what I think,and I'm curious as to what others think..

I think she was manually strangled first,then struck upon the head at either the same time or shortly afterwards.I think this occured in her room,as Patsy asked LE if there was blood on the drapes,and was q'd about blood on her pillowcase,as they asked her if JB ever had any nosebleeds.

She was likely thought dead,or close to it,then carried to the basement.I think the vag. wound was inflicted shortly after that,and the garotting and ligatures were done not long after that.This was in prep to stage it as a sex crime and get her out of the house.

I think the RN was written after that,and other staging was done,such as wiping the FL and batteries down.

The 7am flight was coming up soon,and at some point,they decided getting her out of the house was too risky.So JR, in a hurriedly manner,wipes JB down,redresses her and covers her w the blanket(w the barbie gown stuck to it that he doesn't notice,rem. he was q'd about the night vision goggles..so I think he used them and didn't notice it).The note had to stand,no time to write a new one,so JR showers,and then 911 is called.The rest is history.

Only thing I would add is JR and PR do not comfort each other bc one is blaming the other.

 

[UKGuy]

Good point. But she meant one killer and a confidant, not one stager and a confidant. You can be a confidant by helping the killer stage the scene to get away with the murder.

And I still don't see an innocent way for John's fibers to be on undies JB never wore while conscious/alive, and after she had been wiped down by the stager/redresser. Any fibers innocently there by transfer from JB's hands aren't going to be there after the stager/redresser changes her to bigger size undies and wipes her off.

Nuisanceposter,

Very good points, there is one other option, but it still cannot explain away that the fibers were discovered on JonBenet's genitals.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree w rash in a way,it was bizarre enough to leave on so as to think a parent couldn't have done it.But I don't think it necessarily means it was meant to look a sexual element though,in the last staging.. at first it was,in combo w how the ligatures were tied,but JR *forgot to change them to where they were tightly bound,and I do think that's why he lied and said they were tied tightly...he forgot to redo them as part of the next staging or rather,the restaging !

what order do you think it was done,bc here's what I think,and I'm curious as to what others think..

I think she was manually strangled first,then struck upon the head at either the same time or shortly afterwards.I think this occured in her room,as Patsy asked LE if there was blood on the drapes,and was q'd about blood on her pillowcase,as they asked her if JB ever had any nosebleeds.

She was likely thought dead,or close to it,then carried to the basement.I think the vag. wound was inflicted shortly after that,and the garotting and ligatures were done not long after that.This was in prep to stage it as a sex crime and get her out of the house.

I think the RN was written after that,and other staging was done,such as wiping the FL and batteries down.

The 7am flight was coming up soon,and at some point,they decided getting her out of the house was too risky.So JR, in a hurriedly manner,wipes JB down,redresses her and covers her w the blanket(w the barbie gown stuck to it that he doesn't notice,rem. he was q'd about the night vision goggles..so I think he used them and didn't notice it).The note had to stand,no time to write a new one,so JR showers,and then 911 is called.The rest is history.

Only thing I would add is JR and PR do not comfort each other bc one is blaming the other.

JMO8778,

I find your sequence of events convincing, although the why's can have different explanations e.g. rather than being killed in her bedroom, her death may have been staged there, then relocated to the wine-cellar?

I maintain the barbie-gown was intended to be placed on JonBenet offering the illusion that she had been kidnapped from her bed.

Irrespective of your favorite theory I reckon the ransom note was written before JonBenet was placed into the wine-cellar. It was intended to explain away her disappearance from the house and her intended discovery outdoors? Also there was no time left to write one prior to the 911 call.


My assumed sequence of events is:
1. Manual strangulation
2. Head fracture
3. Cleanup and Staging
4. Ransom note authored
5. Vaginal wound.
6. Cleanup and redressing
7. Ligature strangulation
8. Wine-cellar Staging

1. and 2. may have been simultaneous, 2. may not have occured until point 6. ?

3. and 8. had to be separate events, unless it all occured down in the wine-cellar?

So I reckon there were a minimum ot two staged crime-scenes, with a third a distinct possibility, that was re-engineered into 8. ?

I also reckon it could all be completed in under two hours, assuming you compress all the events to a minimum time slice, with the ransom note taking the longest, at least one hour?

.

 

[JMO8778]

If John and Patsy worked as a cohesive team all night long then why didn't they continue as a cohesive team after 911 was called? They were entering a very dangerous time for them, why change their behavior. If they worked all night together then they should have greeted the police holding hands, both wearing yesterday's clothes and singing a duet. That didn't happen.

This is a death of a child..their child.Their underlying feelings were showing..of course they would find no comfort in each others' arms b/c one was blaming the other.They were just going thru the motions w the staging,but as far as their real feelings...that showed.

I'm seeing a strong dislike for John or the feeling that by putting it all on Patsy we are allowing John to get away with something.

JR was behind parts of the staging,the RN points to that,and so does the 911 call,as well as some of the fiber evidence,not to mention JR's actions ..like trying to flee the state soon after JB is found,and saying he isn't angry w the killer...etc.No dislike or letting him get away with something,the facts are there.

Patsy herself said there was one and a confidant. If one person robs a bank and then tells somebody about it, you have one and a confidant. If two people rob a bank you have two bank robbers. Patsy said one and a confidant.

and the confidant could have helped w the staging,and helped the other get away w it.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I find your sequence of events convincing, although the why's can have different explanations e.g. rather than being killed in her bedroom, her death may have been staged there, then relocated to the wine-cellar?

could be,but when PR asked about blood being on the drapes,it sounds like she thought there was blood spatter...which means she was hit there,if that's what she meant.

I maintain the barbie-gown was intended to be placed on JonBenet offering the illusion that she had been kidnapped from her bed.

could be,again I'm not disagreeing with you,it's that JR says 'that shouldn't be there',when asked about it,more like he saying..'opps,I didn't see that there !'

Irrespective of your favorite theory I reckon the ransom note was written before JonBenet was placed into the wine-cellar. It was intended to explain away her disappearance from the house and her intended discovery outdoors? Also there was no time left to write one prior to the 911 call.

but that would mean her body was left in her room until the RN was finished....I think she was carried shortly to the WC out of fear of BR hearing or seeing something,should he have gotten up.
I'm thinking it was written after she was ligature strangled bc of the 'beheaded' comment.Once she was dead then they needed the note as an excuse.I think it was something done afterward.

My assumed sequence of events is:
1. Manual strangulation
2. Head fracture
3. Cleanup and Staging
4. Ransom note authored
5. Vaginal wound.
6. Cleanup and redressing
7. Ligature strangulation
8. Wine-cellar Staging

1. and 2. may have been simultaneous, 2. may not have occured until point 6. ?

3. and 8. had to be separate events, unless it all occured down in the wine-cellar?

So I reckon there were a minimum ot two staged crime-scenes, with a third a distinct possibility, that was re-engineered into 8. ?

I also reckon it could all be completed in under two hours, assuming you compress all the events to a minimum time slice, with the ransom note taking the longest, at least one hour?

.

good thoughts,other things are possible,I agree.do you think she was manually strangled to unconciousness,then stuck on the head?
Since the vag. wound came shortly after the head wound,I'm thinking the RN would have taken too long to write for it to be written bf that.
In no. 3 you put staging..what type of staging do you think occured then,if the vag. wound and ligature came later?

 

[Albert18]

What we know at the very minimum is that John knew JonBenet's body was in that room before he supposedly found her. But I don't think evidence (at least the evidence that we know about) can tell us when John became involved. I really don't know what to make of the shirt fibers. I think the best we can do is try to analyze their behavior and see if that gives us clues as to what was really going on. So in that vein, something Solace mentioned has me thinking.

When the 911 call was made, the three of them were together by the phone but they told police it was just John and Patsy. At some point and for some reason they decided to say that Burke wasn't awake.

If John and Patsy had been working together for hours, why would Burke even be awake for the 911 call? There was no reason for them to wake him up and have to deal with him at that critical moment. It would make perfect sense for them to tell police they got up, saw the ransom note, checked on Burke and saw he was okay, ran downstairs and called the police. If they were worried that Burke may have heard or seen anything, they could have gotten Burke up and put him back to bed before the 911 call.

Why was Burke awake during the 911 call?

 

[JMO8778]

He woke up unexpectedly,(as he likely heard something with his 'what did you find?' question) as JR snapped at him and told him 'we are not talking to you!'
what you described is the scenario they wanted to present to LE,so they sent him back to bed,as he was there when LE arrived.

 

[Ames]

He woke up unexpectedly,(as he likely heard something with his 'what did you find?' question) as JR snapped at him and told him 'we are not talking to you!'
what you described is the scenario they wanted to present to LE,so they sent him back to bed,as he was there when LE arrived.

Yep, and that would mean less questions for Burke....

 

[Albert18]

He woke up unexpectedly,(as he likely heard something with his 'what did you find?' question) as JR snapped at him and told him 'we are not talking to you!'
what you described is the scenario they wanted to present to LE,so they sent him back to bed,as he was there when LE arrived.

So you're saying they didn't get him up, he just wandered down?

The 911 call was very short.

There is no way Burke heard Patsy on the phone, ran downstairs and was asking questions while she was still on the phone? Not in that house.

Burke was there because they had him there. If the two of them were working in tandem throughout the night, there would be no reason for Burke to be there. Burke should have been in bed.

Remember, if they are working together, there is no running around, no screaming, no noise, no discoveries. When the time comes, Patsy simply picks up the phone and dials 911. It would all be going according to plan. Why was Burke there during the 911 call? Especially since they obviously didn't want him there.

 

[BOESP]

Yeah, but the shirt fibers were in her underwear (and pubic area), and I highly doubt she was wearing those overlarge underwear while she was alive. So how did they get in her new underwear? From being on her pubic area? Why would John's shirt fibers be on her pubic area from him hugging her and playing with her hours earlier? especially after she was wiped down by the stager/redresser?

NP, maybe John's fibers came from Patsy. Surely she and John had some kind of physical contact during the time Patsy had on her red shirt/black slacks outfit.

Just speculating ....

 

[DeeDee249]

I think BR just woke up on his own. He and his parents did admit (much later) that he was actually awake when they thought he was sleeping and heard "voices" and walking around. I think he walked in on the phone call, as PR was likely speaking loudly in her faux-panic-heavy breathing call.

As far as the Barbie nightgown, I really don't think they intended to put it on her to make it seem like she was taken from her bed - because PR had already said in her interviews that she put her to bed in the white sequined Gap shirt and long johns. I think that the Barbie nightgown was stuck inside the white blanket JBR was found in. The blanket was taken from the dryer in the basement. Housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that the basement washer/dryer was used for the heavier things like blankets, while her sheets were washed in the smaller washer right outside her room. I honestly think that nightgown was not part of the crime or staging, that the Rs didn't realize it was there or if they did they did not think it would be that big a deal to anyone.

 

[Ames]

I think BR just woke up on his own. He and his parents did admit (much later) that he was actually awake when they thought he was sleeping and heard "voices" and walking around. I think he walked in on the phone call, as PR was likely speaking loudly in her faux-panic-heavy breathing call.

As far as the Barbie nightgown, I really don't think they intended to put it on her to make it seem like she was taken from her bed - because PR had already said in her interviews that she put her to bed in the white sequined Gap shirt and long johns. I think that the Barbie nightgown was stuck inside the white blanket JBR was found in. The blanket was taken from the dryer in the basement. Housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that the basement washer/dryer was used for the heavier things like blankets, while her sheets were washed in the smaller washer right outside her room. I honestly think that nightgown was not part of the crime or staging, that the Rs didn't realize it was there or if they did they did not think it would be that big a deal to anyone.

When told about the nightgown, John replied that it "wasn't supposed to be there". That's his exact words. I think what he meant by that, was he didn't realize it was there, it wasn't supposed to be there, because it wasn't part of the crime scene staging. He nor Patsy, realized that the nightgown was balled up inside the blanket that was taken from the dryer. I have that problem alot when I wash blankets or sheets, I find all sort of things balled up inside....like socks for example.

 

[JMO8778]

So you're saying they didn't get him up, he just wandered down?

The 911 call was very short.

There is no way Burke heard Patsy on the phone, ran downstairs and was asking questions while she was still on the phone? Not in that house.

Burke was there because they had him there. If the two of them were working in tandem throughout the night, there would be no reason for Burke to be there. Burke should have been in bed.

Remember, if they are working together, there is no running around, no screaming, no noise, no discoveries. When the time comes, Patsy simply picks up the phone and dials 911. It would all be going according to plan. Why was Burke there during the 911 call? Especially since they obviously didn't want him there.

that's why they sent him back to bed..he wasn't supposed to be there.they did not want him in on it,they did not want any q'd asked of him.they wanted LE to see he was still in bed.

 

[JMO8778]

I think BR just woke up on his own. He and his parents did admit (much later) that he was actually awake when they thought he was sleeping and heard "voices" and walking around. I think he walked in on the phone call, as PR was likely speaking loudly in her faux-panic-heavy breathing call.

that's it !

As far as the Barbie nightgown, I really don't think they intended to put it on her to make it seem like she was taken from her bed - because PR had already said in her interviews that she put her to bed in the white sequined Gap shirt and long johns. I think that the Barbie nightgown was stuck inside the white blanket JBR was found in. The blanket was taken from the dryer in the basement. Housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that the basement washer/dryer was used for the heavier things like blankets, while her sheets were washed in the smaller washer right outside her room. I honestly think that nightgown was not part of the crime or staging, that the Rs didn't realize it was there or if they did they did not think it would be that big a deal to anyone.

and if JR was using the night vision goggles he was q'd about,to avoid turning on the light,he esp. may have missed seeing it for that reason.

 

[Albert18]

I think BR just woke up on his own. He and his parents did admit (much later) that he was actually awake when they thought he was sleeping and heard "voices" and walking around. I think he walked in on the phone call, as PR was likely speaking loudly in her faux-panic-heavy breathing call.

Now wait a minute.

This was not a small 3 bedroom ranch where Burke could stumble out of his bedroom and be in the kitchen in a couple of steps.

So at this ungodly hour, Burke happens to wake up, he goes downstairs, it just happens to be when Patsy is making the 911 call, and John knows Patsy is making a phone call that could change their lives and he doesn't stop Burke and make him go back upstairs? Now that is a leap. I don't like leaps.

If he had just wandered downstairs, why lie about it?

How about this.

Burke was up because somebody got him up. The simpliest explanation tends to be the best.

Why would somebody have gotten him up? Why would they then say he wasn't up?

Maybe because the situation was evolving very rapidly that morning?

 

[DeeDee249]

But why would they GET him up? I don't see what purpose that would serve- then to be heard saying "We're not speaking to you." and send him back to bed. I understand that's what you believe, but do you have a theory why they woukd have wanted him up at that time? Unless he was somehow part of the whole situation, which I am not so sure is the case.
BR may not have just woken up at that moment- he may have been awake a while. His bedroom was one floor up from the kitchen- where the call was made from, I believe. In looking at the house floor plans, it's not really that far away. The spiral stairs to the kitchen were right near the kids' bedrooms. A 9-year old kid could scramble down those stairs pretty quickly. Less than a minute from his room to the kitchen area.

 

[JMO8778]

Now wait a minute.

This was not a small 3 bedroom ranch where Burke could stumble out of his bedroom and be in the kitchen in a couple of steps.

So at this ungodly hour, Burke happens to wake up, he goes downstairs, it just happens to be when Patsy is making the 911 call, and John knows Patsy is making a phone call that could change their lives and he doesn't stop Burke and make him go back upstairs? Now that is a leap. I don't like leaps.

If he had just wandered downstairs, why lie about it?

How about this.

Burke was up because somebody got him up. The simplest explanation tends to be the best.

Why would somebody have gotten him up? Why would they then say he wasn't up?

Maybe because the situation was evolving very rapidly that morning?

it wasn't quite such an ungodly hour,it was a bit b/f 6am,he probably got up to get ready for school around that time every morning.he didn't need any help getting up early the day bf,on xmas morning.
It seems JR thought PR had hung the phone up already,or he wouldn't have spoken to BR and still say that he'd been asleep the whole time.JR's tone was reportedly angry when he spoke to BR,so he obv. didn't plan for him to be up.It seems he was interrupting.

 

[Albert18]

But why would they GET him up? I don't see what purpose that would serve- ...

Exactly, unless one parent, even if for just a short time, thought it was real. This is what I am trying to point out.

The Ramsey's initially said Burke was asleep at this time. Remember how it was pointed out by many that this made no sense. If parents wake up and find a child missing and a ransom note, they would immediately wake up the other child, ask that child if he heard or saw anything and then keep that child close to them. After the 911 tape is analyzed it is discovered Burke was indeed downstairs with John and Patsy. They had done what everybody thought they should have done.

It isn't fair or consistent then to argue that if Burke was up he must have just wandered downstairs on his own. That is too much of a leap.

If John and Patsy had been working together during the night, Burke should have been in bed. There is no way they would have wanted him downstairs during the critical 911 call.

Isn't this a clue they were not working as a team at this point? Add this to the fact we know they were not working as a close team AFTER the 911 call.

 

[JMO8778]

Exactly, unless one parent, even if for just a short time, thought it was real. This is what I am trying to point out.

The Ramsey's initially said Burke was asleep at this time. Remember how it was pointed out by many that this made no sense. If parents wake up and find a child missing and a ransom note, they would immediately wake up the other child, ask that child if he heard or saw anything and then keep that child close to them. After the 911 tape is analyzed it is discovered Burke was indeed downstairs with John and Patsy. They had done what everybody thought they should have done.

It isn't fair or consistent then to argue that if Burke was up he must have just wandered downstairs on his own. That is too much of a leap.

If John and Patsy had been working together during the night, Burke should have been in bed. There is no way they would have wanted him downstairs during the critical 911 call.

Isn't this a clue they were not working as a team at this point? Add this to the fact we know they were not working as a close team AFTER the 911 call.

then why send him back to bed?and why lie about it later?JR should have wanted him close by,to keep him safe..not in his room alone. and no,they didn't ask if he'd seen or heard anything during the night..he was sent right to the White's after getting up,(once LE arrived and the R's showed them he was in bed)...and without police escort or supervision.that makes no sense at all.