CASCU Analysis of Crime

[UKGuy]

But then he could have said the same of the blanket, for the blanket should have been upstairs too. A blanket from JB's room is not "supposed to be there" either in a dank and dirty cellar room.


No crime scene pictures could be taken of JonBenet's body in the wine cellar, since John carried her upstairs immediately after "finding" her.

rashomon,

Precisely and the reason why they were not supposed to be there?

It could also be more spin on John's part, since it may have been him who attempted and failed to redress JonBenet in the barbie-gown?

The period when he went missing early morning is often cited as an opportunity to relocate and rredress JonBenet?

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, so there should be nothing there, the killer did not want to include.

JonBenet was likely wrapped in those blankets either upstairs or in the basement, outside the wine-cellar door, where the garrote was created?

So the idea that the barbie-gown arrived at the crime-scene by accident is imo highly improbable.

There were two sets of eyes primarly involved in the staging, possibly three, a barbie gown would not be missed?

Bear in mind that if JonBenet was wrapped in those blankets prior to being deposited into the wine-cellar, then as the alleged staging took place, the barbie-gown would become self-evident.

This debate over the barbie-gown reminds me of Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory, until its realized JonBenet's killer knowingly left her wearing urine-soaked longjohns.

These inconsistencies such as the barbie-gown, urine-soaked longjohns, hidden vaginal assault etc, should suggest less that an accidental event occurred in the commission of a crime, but more substantially that some aspect of a current theory is not supported by the evidence.


.

 

[Albert18]

As far as BR waking up/being woken up- remember the parents likely WERE screaming or yelling or talking loudly in a panic mode. I doubt if the voices he heard were whispering or speaking softly.

All right, I will try again.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, I'm just trying to understand why Steve Thomas includes John later in the cover-up. I understood the role Steve had Patsy playing, but his theory about John surprised me.

I'm wondering if Burke isn't a problem if you have John working with Patsy during the night. What was going on with Burke that morning has always confused and bothered me. Something didn't seem right. What I'm trying to do is figure out why Burke was up, but they didn't really want him up, and so they said he was asleep. This is very, very late in the staging (not long before the police are summoned), why wasn't Burke under control.

This is the point I am trying to make. The parents wouldn't be screaming or yelling at this time of the morning. They would only be running around screaming and yelling if there really had been an intruder and the ransom note is real or if they were putting on a show for Burke.

Patsy has already sat quietly for maybe an hour or more writing the ransom note. Patsy has probably showered and reapplied her makeup. Why is there running and screaming and panic after she has performed these tasks? This running and screaming is based on statements by Patsy. You can't reject 99% of what Patsy said about that night but then clip this "running and screaming" bit to explain why Burke is out of bed.

The voices and noises Burke heard could have been from the confrontation between Patsy and JonBenet, maybe 5-6 hours earlier.

If John and Patsy had been working through the night wouldn't they have thought of Burke? Didn't they have two options for what to do with Burke?

One option is they leave him in bed so he doesn't hear or see what is going on (Remember now, we are talking about the time shortly before the police are called). If he gets up on his own, they chase him back to bed.

We know this didn't happen but this is the story they told.

The second option is an even better one. Burke could have and should have been their best eyewitness. Patsy could have found the ransom note, gotten John, they could both have gotten Burke out of bed and made sure he was fully awake. Then the show could have begun. They could have run through the house calling for JonBenet and searching for her in complete dispair.

Imagine the impact, if Burke had described how his parents were desperately trying to find JonBenet that morning.

This didn't happen either.

Instead, this is what appears to have happened. Patsy, John, and Burke are all by the phone while Patsy is calling 911. After the call, it is decided by John and Patsy it is best Burke is sent back to bed. Later they say Burke wasn't up at all.

We are talking about a time period that is around 5-6 hours after this all started. This confusion is real. It fits with the theory put forth by Steve Thomas. It doesn't fit with John and Patsy being up all night.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't have a lot of time right now but in a nutshell...they did not want BR up b/c they didn't want any questions asked of him.that's why he was sent back to bed,and that's why he was sent right to the Whites..(and that's likely one reason why they were called).but...he got up unexpectedly when PR was being rather noisy with the 911 call,what with all the fake breathing and yelling and all.what is on the tape is this PR saying 'help me,Jesus" a few times,then BR apparently hears some of what's going on at some point,comes down the stairs,sees something is very wrong,and says 'please,what do I do??',then JR snaps at him(and this is why I think he got up unexpectedly) 'we are not talking to you!!!' then BR says 'but what DID you find?'.Emphasis on the word did.I just don't think they would have wanted him up yet and JR seemed angry that he was.That doesn't fit with thinking your other child has been kidnapped,IMO.
As far as commotion bf that,I think they had been yelling a lot that night and not thinking too much of it since BR hadn't gotten woken up from it.I think they were just crazy out of their minds,and it escalated right bf they made the 911 call.JR snapping at BR and Patsy saying 'help me, Jesus' many times demonstrates that,IMO.
they let LE see he was in bed so that hopefully,no questions would be asked of him.

 

[Albert18]

Why would there be unintentional commotion or panic at this time of the morning? We are talking about at least a couple of hours after the ransom note was written. Patsy could not have been running around and screaming while writing the ransom note. She had settled down enough to write 3 pages.

Her makeup was looking good.

The time from the 911 call to when the police arrived is just minutes. They risk Burke being there for the 911 call but then race him upstairs before the police arrive? They have had hours to think about this but then after she hangs up the phone realize it is best if Burke is in bed? This makes no sense.

Patsy is dressed in yesterday's clothes, John is running around in his underwear? If this was true for John, why was John not dressed? They weren't working this for Burke's benefit because they tried to shield Burke from the police. Burke should have been an excellent eyewitness for them that morning.

But maybe Patsy is telling some truth about that morning. There was yelling, screaming, and running around because she was working the charade for John. Burke was indeed awakened by the noise or somebody got him up. Maybe John was in his underwear.

Maybe Burke is standing there during the 911 call with John because John doesn't fully comprehend yet what has happened. But he suspects enough to get Burke the heck out of there before the police arrive. Later he gets Burke out of the house.

 

[JMO8778]

Why would there be unintentional commotion or panic at this time of the morning? We are talking about at least a couple of hours after the ransom note was written. Patsy could not have been running around and screaming while writing the ransom note. She had settled down enough to write 3 pages.

Her makeup was looking good.

I don't think they ever really got to a relaxed state,at some point they did calm long enough to try to figure out what to do.I see what you're saying but with JR's fiber evidence,the way he was acting,etc,I think he already knew.plus PR's comment she screamed and JR screamed when he came up from the basement..I think things just picked back up once again when they got to the point they knew they had to let LE in on the whole thing.who wouldn't be panicked..they had no idea what was going to go down,whether they'd be arrested right there on the spot or what.

The time from the 911 call to when the police arrived is just minutes. They risk Burke being there for the 911 call but then race him upstairs before the police arrive? They have had hours to think about this but then after she hangs up the phone realize it is best if Burke is in bed? This makes no sense.

I think PR woke him up w the call,something she didn't mean to do.so yes,he is sent back to bed so LE can see for themselves that he's still there and think he's been asleep the whole time.

Patsy is dressed in yesterday's clothes, John is running around in his underwear? If this was true for John, why was John not dressed? They weren't working this for Burke's benefit because they tried to shield Burke from the police. Burke should have been an excellent eyewitness for them that morning.

we dont know that he wasn't dressed..we only have him n PR saying so.my guess is he got dressed right after the shower.
yes,BR would have been a good witness...but they didn't know if he might have overheard anything that night...better to do it the way they did and hope he didn't get q'd in case he heard something.

Maybe Burke is standing there during the 911 call with John because John doesn't fully comprehend yet what has happened. But he suspects enough to get Burke the heck out of there before the police arrive. Later he gets Burke out of the house.

but dont you think he would have told BR a bit about what was going on when he got him up?BR is just clueless and it sounds like JR was right beside PR,supervising the call,while BR unexpectedly came down.the overall pic I get is they didnt want him there yet,that wasnt part of the plan,and so he was sent back to bed.

 

[Toltec]

Burke told authorities that he heard Patsy at his bedroom door saying "Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh!"

Let's not forget Detective Patterson's visit to the Whites that morning. Without the Ramseys knowledge, he questioned Burke for fifteen minutes. My guess is that if Burke was awake, he told Detective Patterson.

We do not know anything about what Burke told Det. Patterson. I am guessing he said something very incriminating...

 

[Albert18]

Burke told authorities that he heard Patsy at his bedroom door saying "Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh!"

Patsy knew the ransom note was not real. She knew where JonBenet was and why she was gone from her room. So if there was a commotion upon finding the ransom note, it has to be an act. She must have been doing it to make an impression on somebody just like the Lazarus act later that day.

It doesn't appear like it was meant for Burke and the only other person there was John. But if John had been helping her earlier, there would be no need for a performance.

 

[Ames]

Patsy knew the ransom note was not real. She knew where JonBenet was and why she was gone from her room. So if there was a commotion upon finding the ransom note, it has to be an act. She must have been doing it to make an impression on somebody just like the Lazarus act later that day.

It doesn't appear like it was meant for Burke and the only other person there was John. But if John had been helping her earlier, there would be no need for a performance.

She could have been just plain freaking out, because of what they had done....not because JB had been kidnapped, because of course...she KNEW that JB wasn't kidnapped. My guess is that she was just frantic about what had transpired...and so it was probably more like a "Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh....what have I DONE!?!?" Not a "Oh my gosh, my child is missing". When I first read about her little Lazarus act...(like REALLY...did she ACTUALLY believe that Jesus was just going to raise JB from the dead? We are NOT living in the Bible days....) anyway, when I first read about her Lazarus act...it made me want to puke.

 

[JMO8778]

She could have been just plain freaking out, because of what they had done....not because JB had been kidnapped, because of course...she KNEW that JB wasn't kidnapped. My guess is that she was just frantic about what had transpired...and so it was probably more like a "Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh....what have I DONE!?!?" Not a "Oh my gosh, my child is missing". When I first read about her little Lazarus act...(like REALLY...did she ACTUALLY believe that Jesus was just going to raise JB from the dead? We are NOT living in the Bible days....) anyway, when I first read about her Lazarus act...it made me want to puke.

me too,as well as the Jackie Kennedy act..dressing like her and kneeling bf the coffin.I mean really...
JR did a lot of hiding behind her theatrics,IMO.starting with the RN and the 911 call.she was the performer in the family;they had that worked out.he seemed to be hiding behind her in the early days on CNN as well,IMO.
the theatrics had to start somewhere that morning,and in case BR heard the call or overheard something,unless they told him what to say(which wouldnt surprise me),it started there.

 

[Solace]

All right, I will try again.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, I'm just trying to understand why Steve Thomas includes John later in the cover-up. I understood the role Steve had Patsy playing, but his theory about John surprised me.

I'm wondering if Burke isn't a problem if you have John working with Patsy during the night. What was going on with Burke that morning has always confused and bothered me. Something didn't seem right. What I'm trying to do is figure out why Burke was up, but they didn't really want him up, and so they said he was asleep. This is very, very late in the staging (not long before the police are summoned), why wasn't Burke under control.

This is the point I am trying to make. The parents wouldn't be screaming or yelling at this time of the morning. They would only be running around screaming and yelling if there really had been an intruder and the ransom note is real or if they were putting on a show for Burke.

Patsy has already sat quietly for maybe an hour or more writing the ransom note. Patsy has probably showered and reapplied her makeup. Why is there running and screaming and panic after she has performed these tasks? This running and screaming is based on statements by Patsy. You can't reject 99% of what Patsy said about that night but then clip this "running and screaming" bit to explain why Burke is out of bed.

The voices and noises Burke heard could have been from the confrontation between Patsy and JonBenet, maybe 5-6 hours earlier.

If John and Patsy had been working through the night wouldn't they have thought of Burke? Didn't they have two options for what to do with Burke?

One option is they leave him in bed so he doesn't hear or see what is going on (Remember now, we are talking about the time shortly before the police are called). If he gets up on his own, they chase him back to bed.

We know this didn't happen but this is the story they told.

The second option is an even better one. Burke could have and should have been their best eyewitness. Patsy could have found the ransom note, gotten John, they could both have gotten Burke out of bed and made sure he was fully awake. Then the show could have begun. They could have run through the house calling for JonBenet and searching for her in complete dispair.

Imagine the impact, if Burke had described how his parents were desperately trying to find JonBenet that morning.

This didn't happen either.

Instead, this is what appears to have happened. Patsy, John, and Burke are all by the phone while Patsy is calling 911. After the call, it is decided by John and Patsy it is best Burke is sent back to bed. Later they say Burke wasn't up at all.

We are talking about a time period that is around 5-6 hours after this all started. This confusion is real. It fits with the theory put forth by Steve Thomas. It doesn't fit with John and Patsy being up all night.

Albert,

Great point that Burke would have been a great alibi. So now I am more convinced that Patsy did it.

 

[Toltec]

Why would there be unintentional commotion or panic at this time of the morning? We are talking about at least a couple of hours after the ransom note was written. Patsy could not have been running around and screaming while writing the ransom note. She had settled down enough to write 3 pages.

Her makeup was looking good.

The time from the 911 call to when the police arrived is just minutes. They risk Burke being there for the 911 call but then race him upstairs before the police arrive? They have had hours to think about this but then after she hangs up the phone realize it is best if Burke is in bed? This makes no sense.

Patsy is dressed in yesterday's clothes, John is running around in his underwear? If this was true for John, why was John not dressed? They weren't working this for Burke's benefit because they tried to shield Burke from the police. Burke should have been an excellent eyewitness for them that morning.

But maybe Patsy is telling some truth about that morning. There was yelling, screaming, and running around because she was working the charade for John. Burke was indeed awakened by the noise or somebody got him up. Maybe John was in his underwear.

Maybe Burke is standing there during the 911 call with John because John doesn't fully comprehend yet what has happened. But he suspects enough to get Burke the heck out of there before the police arrive. Later he gets Burke out of the house.

Exactly....My belief is that Patsy began her plan after John got into the shower. Patsy jumped out of bed, freshened her makeup, put her clothes on and then listened for the shower to go off. While the shower was running, she was downstairs putting her plan in place. She was near Burke's door, most likely nervously pacing. She probably takes this time to peek into Burke's room. Knowing her histrionics are going to wake the poor kid, she says "Oh my gosh! Oh my Gosh!". She than gives John enough time to dry off before screaming for him....JOHN!

 

[JMO8778]

I think what happened is ...the show had to start somewhere,for BR's sake...so...they agree on this..JR goes and takes a shower,while Patsy puts the finishing touches on the RN.She finishes the note,JR comes out of the shower,she screams for him...it all starts there...

 

[Albert18]

I don't think Patsy and John would have been performing for Burke because whatever Burke saw, they tried to keep him quiet about it.

But imagine John bounding out of bed because of the Michigan trip and he is greeted by Patsy, wearing yesterday's clothes and excellently applied lipstick, talking about JonBenet being missing and a note in the house. Burke must have witnessed at least part of what happened next.

 

[JMO8778]

Burke claims Patsy checked on him while he was still in bed...Patsy says John was the one who ran up and checked on him..
after LE arrives,don't PR,JR and the police officer all check on BR together?

 

[UKGuy]

If you assume an occupant of the house killed JonBenet, and that the crime-scene has been staged, then all the subsequent occupant statements are suspect?

e.g. Burke claims he was faking being asleep on the morning of the 911 call.

If you wind back the clock, then Burke has some idea about what occurred that night, since he definitely knows if he sipped tea while JonBenet snacked milk and pineapple, he also knows if his mother served and supervised all of this, he also knows if JonBenet walked into the house on returning from the Whites, and most importantly of all, if she went straight to bed, or stayed up?

So if we fast forward to the next morning then for a minimum of say two hours, there has been frenetic cleaning, movement upstairs and downstairs, as JonBenet is staged and re-staged, the forensic evidence links both John and Patsy to the wine-cellar crime-scene, so they were both awake long before the 911 call.

So given all the activity, Burke could not have been ignorant of something taking place around him that morning, why was he not asked to rise, dress and come downstairs, because he was in on the staging, he was playing the part of the innocent sound asleep!

All three remaining residents conspired to present the illusion that unknown to them JonBenet had been kidnapped. If you then compare all three witness statements regarding the events of the night before and the following morning, they all offer conflicting and inconsistent versions, later they amend their prior statements to synchronise, or they have a memory loss.

John and Patsy Ramsey's version of events that morning is alike the ransom note, bogus and fake, all intended to mislead you.

 

[JMO8778]

If you assume an occupant of the house killed JonBenet, and that the crime-scene has been staged, then all the subsequent occupant statements are suspect?

e.g. Burke claims he was faking being asleep on the morning of the 911 call.

If you wind back the clock, then Burke has some idea about what occurred that night, since he definitely knows if he sipped tea while JonBenet snacked milk and pineapple, he also knows if his mother served and supervised all of this, he also knows if JonBenet walked into the house on returning from the Whites, and most importantly of all, if she went straight to bed, or stayed up?

So if we fast forward to the next morning then for a minimum of say two hours, there has been frenetic cleaning, movement upstairs and downstairs, as JonBenet is staged and re-staged, the forensic evidence links both John and Patsy to the wine-cellar crime-scene, so they were both awake long before the 911 call.

So given all the activity, Burke could not have been ignorant of something taking place around him that morning, why was he not asked to rise, dress and come downstairs, because he was in on the staging, he was playing the part of the innocent sound asleep!

All three remaining residents conspired to present the illusion that unknown to them JonBenet had been kidnapped. If you then compare all three witness statements regarding the events of the night before and the following morning, they all offer conflicting and inconsistent versions, later they amend their prior statements to synchronise, or they have a memory loss.

John and Patsy Ramsey's version of events that morning is alike the ransom note, bogus and fake, all intended to mislead you.

exactly ! Burke was told to lie about JB being awake upon returning home,and about the pineapple snack as well.Why assume he's telling the truth about who checked on him and what was said?Any parent can tell you...this is not a believable scenario anyway...if one of your kids is kidnapped,you'd be frantic,waking the other one up,asking if they saw or heard anything that night,checking their room,keeping them close by...not making sure LE *saw they were in bed upon arrival !

If BR is to be believed,then that follows this line of thinking:
"One of my kids has been kidnapped,but I'll just let the other one sleep and not bother to ask if anything was seen or heard last night.I'll just let him stay alone in his room until police arrive,no need to check if a KN might be in there,or anywhere else in the house for that matter.Better I go get dressed and Patsy can greet LE at the door while BR continues to sleep".
See,that just doesn't work.

But anyway,I'm tired of banging my head on this thread and subject,so enough.

 

[DeeDee249]

PR was dressed in yesterday's clothes because she never went to bed at all Christmas night.

JR was in his underwear for one of two reasons: He did go to bed, and PR acted alone up to that point OR he was also up all night and showered to remove evidence.

BR likley DOES know the answers to many questions- did she walk into the house (he said yes).
Did she actually go up to bed.
Did she have a pineapple snack. (with or without his drinking the tea)
Anyone know if the little tag on that tea bag was ever tested for fingerprints or DNA? I wonder what today's procedures could uncover. Wonder if that little tea bag is still in an evidence locker somewhere...

 

[Toltec]

Lets not forget Burke's words...."What did you find?"..."What do I do?"

Why would Burke ask what his parents found if he was at all guilty of this crime?

Patsy is turning up the histrionics and that is when Burke gets up. The poor kid is asking what the heck is going on and his dear ole dad yells at him!

"We're not talking to you!"

Wait just a minute here John....your daughter has been kidnapped and you yell at your precious son when you should have picked him up and comforted him.

My belief is that John took one good look at the note and knew right away that Patsy was trying to pull one over on him.

He must have gotten the truth out of her before 911 was called. He than realized his precious daughter was not coming back and so he made the CEO's choice to save the rest of the company (family).

 

[Ames]

PR was dressed in yesterday's clothes because she never went to bed at all Christmas night.

JR was in his underwear for one of two reasons: He did go to bed, and PR acted alone up to that point OR he was also up all night and showered to remove evidence.

BR likley DOES know the answers to many questions- did she walk into the house (he said yes).
Did she actually go up to bed.
Did she have a pineapple snack. (with or without his drinking the tea)
Anyone know if the little tag on that tea bag was ever tested for fingerprints or DNA? I wonder what today's procedures could uncover. Wonder if that little tea bag is still in an evidence locker somewhere...

I agree...and I wonder about that little tea bag too.

 

[Albert18]

...
My belief is that John took one good look at the note and knew right away that Patsy was trying to pull one over on him.

He must have gotten the truth out of her before 911 was called...

This is the part that perplexes me. I have always assumed John knew everything well before the 911 call and maybe even had time to help with some revised staging of the body, but now Burke bothers me.

The 911 call is a very dangerous time for them. Plus the police will be arriving shortly thereafter. Why would Burke be there during the 911 call and then rushed to bed immediately thereafter. Why not delay the 911 call for five minutes, get Burke to bed, then call 911.

The only explanation I can come up with is that John was not 100% up to speed at that time. It could be argued that Burke walked in on the 911 call but John could have easily chased Burke back up the stairs without saying a word.

Then you add in the way John and Patsy acted that morning. Patsy doesn't seem to have any interest in any new information. Very strange for a mother who's daughter is missing. John's behavior is much different.