Casey and Family Psych Profile #11

[LambChop]

I'm with you in being surprised at the amazing lack of information we have seen about her growing up. This is especially true when you consider she in still a young adult and her childhood would be relatively fresh in others' minds. I heard an interview with an aunt (don't recall if maternal or paternal) the other night who said she "lost track" of ICA after the age of 9 or 10. She offered nothing about ICA prior to that time. Was she not close to any teachers, coaches, babysitters, anyone? Unfortunately, it is hard to imagine all these people keeping quiet during this time.

Problem is the only true historians lie.

 

[DeadCat]

I believe the state had pointed out that CA really kept ICA under her thumb and she really couldn't get out that much other than to "work". But considering she was never working, the million dollar question is what DID she do all those days/hours/weeks. .

Do you think she could have been hanging out at that abandoned house? I just don't get why that place was searched.

 

[GeekyGirl]

One thing we also have to remember is that from the people we HAVE heard from, up until the later teenage years, ICA seemed to fly under the radar. She kept good grades in school, was quiet, and seemed to be a good girl. If you look at it from the POV of a sociopath, it wouldn't be too farfetched if that is really the case because she might have had a hard time connecting with other children and did not yet have the social skills and awareness to play people like she did when she was older. So it might have been hard for her to have friends, and she did what she had to do when she was younger to keep everyone placated, just like she appeared to be doing what she should as an adult---working, taking care of her child, etc (even though it was all lies).

Interesting though, from a clinical perspective, she would have to be showing signs of APD or NPD before the age of 15 IIRC... I know there's something about stealing a check from Lee when she was in high school, but other than that... Nada.

ETA: I stand corrected, only antisocial personality disorder has the age requirement

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/antisocialpd.htm

 

[LBshrink]

I am so glad this question was posted. I am a clinical psychologist and am totally obsessed with KC's psych profile. I think when the trial is over we will hear a lot about prior antisocial behavior. It may not have risen to the level of serious criminal behavior, though problems like shoplifting, rule-breaking, speeding tickets, lying, cheating, etc. is all very likely. The problem with sociopathy is that most of us (even trained professionals) have an impossible time wrapping our heads around how a person can lack some basic human emotions and impulse controls. Usually the parents do everything they can to protect their child from consequences, which of course just reinforces the antisocial behavior so that by late adlecnce, early adulthood, it is permanent. It would take a VERY strong family with great familiarity in setting limits and consequences to raise a child with sociopathic tendencies to grow into a productive, integrated member of society. I really hope the psych evals and any testing done is one day published because I am trying to understand as well.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I am so glad this question was posted. I am a clinical psychologist and am totally obsessed with KC's psych profile. I think when the trial is over we will hear a lot about prior antisocial behavior. It may not have risen to the level of serious criminal behavior, though problems like shoplifting, rule-breaking, speeding tickets, lying, cheating, etc. is all very likely. The problem with sociopathy is that most of us (even trained professionals) have an impossible time wrapping our heads around how a person can lack some basic human emotions and impulse controls. Usually the parents do everything they can to protect their child from consequences, which of course just reinforces the antisocial behavior so that by late adlecnce, early adulthood, it is permanent. It would take a VERY strong family with great familiarity in setting limits and consequences to raise a child with sociopathic tendencies to grow into a productive, integrated member of society. I really hope the psych evals and any testing done is one day published because I am trying to understand as well.

Thanks for your perspective! I was just reading an article written by another mental health professional about treating sociopathy... I was really intrigued when he said the hardest part was that he couldn't emphasize with someone who... well I guess with someone who has no empathy. Absolutely fascinating to me.

 

[Baznme]

I think it stems from CA trying to keep her in this childlike state and trying to control her life. CA knew ICA was a liar and some strange if not disturbing tendencies and was trying to will her or make her be better and keep her sheltered. She got pregnant and dropped out of school and had to grow up quick with no skills IMO because CA did everything for her.
(sounds exactly like my little sister and my parents are raising her two kids now)

I agree with most of your post with the exception of the words I bolded. She STILL hasn't grown up. She didn't have to because she didn't WANT to. Most at the age of 22 are at least doing something to spread their wings, like "look for a job" if you don't have one, "stay home with your child" when you don't have a babysitter, "not steal" if you need money but rather ask for it or borrow it until you can get it back to them. She was taking her parents for granted and had no intention of changing that. She wanted all the advantages of being an adult but, none of the responsibility.

 

[ColdDayIn]

Do you think she could have been hanging out at that abandoned house? I just don't get why that place was searched.

Honestly I have no idea. I couldn't picture her taking Caylee to an abandoned house everyday just to sit there. It would seem like she would rather be at a real job to spend time meeting other friends her age than to do that. The thing is though, I have to keep reminding myself that what seems logical to me or any of the rest of us, does not make it logical for ICA. She has done so many things that none of us can really understand, so it's really not entirely impossible. For Caylee's sake, I really hope that's not what was happening.

 

[billysmom]

The psych part of this whole tale of horrors is what got me interested from the get-go. I too am soooooo intrigued at what makes Casey tick.

I just cannot understand sociopathy. How IS it an individual's fault?

I want Casey to "get-it" when the 1st degree guilty verdict comes in. And then I want her to donate her brain to science.

Dr. Keith Ablow (forensic psychiatrist) wrote a book about Scott Peterson after his conviction. I didn't read it, but I hope he or someone with his experience writes a book on Casey.

I'm hoping this jury is 'tougher' on her for what she tried to do to her brother & father!

 

[ColdDayIn]

ColdDay,
I know moms and daughters can be very close, but in that letter, it sounded to me like CA was actually jealous and hurt that KC had a peer she considered a Best Friend. A mother/daughter bond should be something more or different than that and a mom should not feel threatened by her daughter having a "best friend" closer to her own age. (At first, I thought CA was mad because KC was bonding with inmates, but I don't think that was it)

I hope you don't think I am trying to be argumentative with you. I think you are making excellent points and I love to bounce ideas back and forth.

I could see CA being jealous because ICA and Caylee were her life. ICA is her only daughter and it probably did make her a bit jealous that ICA could "replace" her so quickly...that is, if we are thinking along the lines that CA had no idea there was never anything to be replaced. I think ICA really played her mother's emotions. ICA walked a fine line and knew what made her mother tick, how to pull her mother's heartstrings, and I believe she used that to her advantage to make CA somewhat dependent on her. We have to remember that CA has not been emotionally stable through any of this, and who knows what she was like beforehand. I think it boils down to the fact that she LOVES Casey with every fiber of her being and it probably just hit a nerve and she let a sliver of reality hit her that her daughter does not return that unconditional love...so she was probably hurt, embarrassed and jealous all at the same time.

 

[Emeralgem]

i wonder if she got pregnant on purpose, then concealed it til after it was too late to have an abortion.

I suspect she got pregnant and like always didn't care about dealing with any of it until she absloutely had.to... Casey takes it to the limit until there is no way out...

 

[Polifax]

Abandoned house? :waitasec: Off to do some Google searches.

 

[davehead21]

If you look at the evidence list and watch the "Lee with Tony" video tape, where Tony was asked to wear a wire while meeting with Lee, there's some insight into Casey there. Lee mentions that Casey's lying has been going on since adolescence, which was interesting.

http://www.wftv.com/news/23080678/detail.html

Thank you so much for posting this. There were a couple of times where I had to stop following this case because all of the lies and circus atmosphere drove me insane, so there are some things I haven't seen/read. Lee says some interesting things. As a side note, Lee seems much different in these videos than he did on the stand. I also find it interesting that he normally refers to ICA as "my sister" rather than by name. That really stuck out to me for some reason.

 

[SevenSeas]

I agree with most of your post with the exception of the words I bolded. She STILL hasn't grown up. She didn't have to because she didn't WANT to. Most at the age of 22 are at least doing something to spread their wings, like "look for a job" if you don't have one, "stay home with your child" when you don't have a babysitter, "not steal" if you need money but rather ask for it or borrow it until you can get it back to them. She was taking her parents for granted and had no intention of changing that. She wanted all the advantages of being an adult but, none of the responsibility.

Excellent post!!! :clap:

 

[SevenSeas]

Honestly I have no idea. I couldn't picture her taking Caylee to an abandoned house everyday just to sit there. It would seem like she would rather be at a real job to spend time meeting other friends her age than to do that. The thing is though, I have to keep reminding myself that what seems logical to me or any of the rest of us, does not make it logical for ICA. She has done so many things that none of us can really understand, so it's really not entirely impossible. For Caylee's sake, I really hope that's not what was happening.

Maybe she took her there, while waiting for George to go to work. Her pings always showed her right near home, right before George had to leave for work... then she'd be at home, online shortly after George left.

JMO

 

[GeekyGirl]

I would bet that the reason we have not heard about it before now is because the cash cow is gonna be fatter after the trial is over. That's when the real $$ is gonna come into play for people's stories. Also, anyone in the family might be waiting out of respect for all fairness in ICA's trial before they spill all the weird, sordid secrets.

I agree that it does make you appreciate the people who haven't tried to cash in on the tragic death of Caylee, but I will admit, if a tell all book is written by someone who really knew ICA and all the details of her past and childhood (weird or not), I will be one of the first to read it.

I think after the trial is over, all is fair game for anyone to cash in on their stories, as it has been 3 years since it happened, the trial will be over, and so many strangers have a vested interest in this case that it's only fair we get to hear the rest of the story. I won't be thinking lowly of anyone trying to sell out afterwards except the DT. They will always disgust me and I have no doubt that they went into this JUST to cash in on their stories after it's over. You couldn't PAY me to read their version of lies.

I hate it, but I know I want to read that tell all book too.

 

[Nefriahaia]

I don't know about her past, but I'm hoping her future includes gurneys and needles.

 

[kimmera]

I actually am surprised that so little has come out about her life prior to Caylee's birth. You'd think someone would have tried to cash in on the "I knew she was a monster all along" angle or some variant of that. I've also heard speculation that she had some sort of juvie record, but so far no leaks or anything about that, so I tend to doubt it. All in all, it makes me feel better about humanity, but does nothing to satisfy my curiosity.

I agree. It is kind of like an information vacuum about her 'formative' years. It would be interesting to have this info at some point, but who knows if we will ever really know?

It really brings up the age-old 'nature vs nurture' argument, doesn't it? I mean, here we have a family that has acted...well...oddly, at times since the story first broke. But we also have NO info to support that there was any abuse or neglect in the home, actually quite the opposite, extended family says that they really WERE the 'All American Family', ummmm...except for Casey. :waitasec:

My personal feeling is that the family probably was pretty much normal until ICA hit adolescence. I also further believe that ICA is a sociopath, and that she was born that way. As with many personality and mental heath disorders, the hormone upheaval in puberty tend to bring these issues to the forefront, and typically this is when the real problems start. I believe that as ICA started to act out more and more, her family learned to compensate by avoiding confrontation with her, and placating her at every turn.

Obviously, none of that worked...I am also reasonably sure that she played both of her parents off of each other, and caused great damage to their marriage. I feel bad for GA and CA (not talking about any issues since Caylee was missing), having their lives under a microscope with all of this. They have had issues, obviously, but not outside the realm of what the 'average American family' has, on any given day, IMO. Money issues, job issues, possible infidelity...sadly, 'normal' in this day and age.

So then Caylee comes along and apparently CA thinks that FINALLY, ICA will have a sense of purpose in her life, accept responsibility for herself, and make a plan for her (and Caylee's) future. Ummm..not.gonna.happen. CA and GA did it all. Money was tight, they were both working, and they expected (and probably DEMANDED) that ICA start taking on some responsibility for HER child. And we know the rest...

But, like you, I sure do wish we had more info about the 'early years'. :waitasec:

 

[crimesnooper]

There was a poster who talked about some things from a book called"Mommies Little Girl." on another thread. But I cannot find it. But you can find that book on Amazon though. So it may help with some questions you have.

Amazon.com: Mommy's Little Girl: Casey Anthony and her Daughter Caylee's Tragic Fate (9780312365141): Diane Fanning: Books

I read the book, and there is very, very little real imformation about ICA. The only incidents mentioned are the HS not graduating and the pregnancy. Fanning is no Ann Rule, but I was stunned at how little info this book had.

 

[crimesnooper]

The psych part of this whole tale of horrors is what got me interested from the get-go. I too am soooooo intrigued at what makes Casey tick.

I just cannot understand sociopathy. How IS it an individual's fault?

I want Casey to "get-it" when the 1st degree guilty verdict comes in. And then I want her to donate her brain to science.

Dr. Keith Ablow (forensic psychiatrist) wrote a book about Scott Peterson after his conviction. I didn't read it, but I hope he or someone with his experience writes a book on Casey.

I'm hoping this jury is 'tougher' on her for what she tried to do to her brother & father!

Ablow's book IMO was a complete rip off. A waste of time snd money. I vote for Ann Rule to do the book!!

 

[Kat]

I completely agree with you that Casey probably has one or more personality disorders going on and I also agree completely that treating personality disorders is very difficult and that they rarely ask for help or admit they have a problem. I just don't think anyone, no matter what their issue, no matter what their social status, no matter what their crime, place of residence (a home, homeless, jail, prison, an institution a hospital etc) or diagnosis or lack there-of- should be denied treatment if they ask for it. Because some do eventually recognize they have a problem and legitimately want help and work hard toward recovery and to stay well. My mother is a good example of this.. she was hell itself when I was growing up but she came to realize and admit she has a problem (diagnosed with borderline personality disorder) and got help.. she has worked hard to stay well, she still has issues but has improved dramatically. There IS hope for people with personality disorders and they need to know that if they are ever going to come forward.. the stigma- the people saying that they can't get well, they can't change, that they were BORN this way and can't change is the biggest thing that keeps them from seeking help IMO. We as a society can't give up on all because some don't or won't seek help.

I know that Casey knows right from wrong.. I know what personality disorders are. I'm not trying to say the girl should get off or be able to use any type of mental illness defense what-so-ever. I've been probably one of the loudest people here saying no way should she get a mental illness defense.. I have a pretty good grasp on mental illness VS personality disorders, as I said, my mother has a personality disorder... my step father was diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder and I have Bipolar disorder. I am not one of those who think mental illness should be used as an excuse for anything. All I'm saying I think she should be able to get mental heath care in prison if she asks for it. Every single person placed on this earth deserves an opportunity to be mentally well even if that can only be achieved in prison.

Learned helplessness. You are literally taught to believe you are helpless without the person who has always taken care of you. You can't do it as good as, as pretty as, as quick as them. I don't think casey is a narcissist either, I think she hates herself.. I think she feels unloved, unloveable and unaccepted. How can you not when your mother creates a whole other life story about you to fit her picture perfect word that's acceptable to her and ignores who and what you really are?! to the extent of allowing you to steal from her, lie to her, whatever, doesn't matter so long as she can keep her fairytale for outsiders. All the While she's saying she loves you unconditionally but she can't even accept your truth. I don't like who Casey let herself become but I get her rage.. I don't see the treatment she received as spoiling either, not in the least!!

Both of those posts were so good I had to quote both.

I've been thinking about KC and her PD's. I can't even guess what she might be diagnosed with but from just what very little I do know I say she falls somewhere on the cluster b diagnosis.

OLG, do you think once she has had some time and distance from her enmeshed relationship with Cindy (and gets some emotional maturity) that she might be able to come to terms with her skewed way of percieving things?

This is what I desperately hope for one of my family members.

I hope that KC can access psychiatric care if she wants in prison.