Casey and Family Psych Profile #11

[logicalgirl]

I work with people who have mental illness and have considerable experience with virtually every mental illness, including personality disorders. I don't think ICA has Antisocial Personality Disorder. If she had that there would be a considerable history of violence, not just stealing. A sociopath is more likely to mug and beat someone to steal money than to sneak it from family and friends. ICA would also have shown signs of a Conduct Disorder as a child with onset prior to age 15. I haven't seen or heard any reports of ICA having a history of violent assaults at all and that would be present if she had Antisocial Personality Disorder. Keep in mind that I work with many people who have been diagnosed and are in treatment who are Sociopaths, a couple of Psychopaths, sex offenders, people with Borderline, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder and even one person with multiple personalities (Dissociative Identity Disorder). Based on what I know of mental illness and what I have seen/read about ICA I would say Borderline Personality Disorder or Bipolar (leaning more towards BPD) with Narcissistic traits. Other possibilities could include PTSD or some kind of anxiety disorder. Again...with Antisocial Personality Disorder there is always a significant history of violence against others.

Did you ever watch that film called I, Psychopath by Sam Varkin who was a diagnosed Psychopath? It's interesting that he was a first class con man but never violent. He thought he was a Narcissistic Sociopath, but testing showed he actually had quite a low rating.

It was an interesting but creepy film. It's in with the collection of Dr. Robert Hare.

 

[chicklet]

Respectfully I disagree that a history of violence is always manifested or apparent in APD. ICA was only 22 years old at the time of the crime. We have no evidence of conduct disorder but we also have no evidence of self-harm either.

In my lay understanding of comorbidity some 'traits' may be more pervasive than others. Case in point - my ex did not become violent or aggressive until his 20's. He was tiny as an adolescent/young adult and usually fodder for bullies. He has been dx'd as APD/NPD.

Anyway - comorbidity. I find it unlikely ICA is any 'one' disorder but rather an overlapping of a few. There are striking similarities between the cluster b's but I tend to think NPD/APD and HPD...which could as much account for her promiscuity as being a sexual abuse survivor. I myself do not see BPD or bipolar but that's just my little lay opinion.

The bottom line is that in order for ICA to have Antisocial Personality Disorder she would have HAD to have Conduct Disorder prior to turning 15 years old. That is part of the diagnostic criteria. That is a mandatory element of diagnosis. Unless ICA was doing things like setting fires, torturing animals, committing muggings, physical or sexual assaults or robbing and beating people prior to turning 15 years old then she simply cannot be a Sociopath. Some of the traits are interchangeable but some MUST be present in order to diagnose APD and the Conduct Disorder is one of the "MUST be present" traits. Hope this helps clear up any confusion.

 

[Quiche]

The bottom line is that in order for ICA to have Antisocial Personality Disorder she would have HAD to have Conduct Disorder prior to turning 15 years old. That is part of the diagnostic criteria. That is a mandatory element of diagnosis. Unless ICA was doing things like setting fires, torturing animals, committing muggings, physical or sexual assaults or robbing and beating people prior to turning 15 years old then she simply cannot be a Sociopath. Some of the traits are interchangeable but some MUST be present in order to diagnose APD and the Conduct Disorder is one of the "MUST be present" traits. Hope this helps clear up any confusion.

Well, we do have an indication that Caylee was dumped at her old pet cemetery-- how many pets died, I wonder. :waitasec: I hope her neighborhood friend can tell us...

 

[chicklet]

Did you ever watch that film called I, Psychopath by Sam Varkin who was a diagnosed Psychopath? It's interesting that he was a first class con man but never violent. He thought he was a Narcissistic Sociopath, but testing showed he actually had quite a low rating.

It was an interesting but creepy film. It's in with the collection of Dr. Robert Hare.

No, I haven't seen it. Psychopaths are more predatory where Sociopaths tend to be more opportunistic. Both of the psychopaths I have worked with are sex offenders. One of them I actually think has been discussed on this very website. (not in this section) I still work with them, though, so I cannot divulge the name. Also, psychopaths are better at committing crimes because they are much more organized than sociopaths.

 

[chicklet]

Well, we do have an indication that Caylee was dumped at her old pet cemetery-- how many pets died, I wonder. :waitasec: I hope her neighborhood friend can tell us...

I once lived next to a family whose 12 year old son had Conduct Disorder. Everyone within at least a half mile radius was familiar with the kid. He was expelled from every school he had been in, assaulted teachers, had 3 felony charges by the time he was 11 years old, bullied and beat the crap out of dozens of children, broke into multiple homes in the neighborhood, was using drugs, stealing cars, shooting at animals with pellet and paint ball guns and set a wooded area on fire. I'm pretty confident that IF ICA had Conduct Disorder there would have been people in the neighborhood or prior classmates who were victimized talking about it on the news shows. After the fire he was sent to a locked youth facility.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Just in case my using Antisocial Personality Disorder as an example related to diagnostic criteria in a prior post is interpreted as meaning that I consider APD as a potential diagnosis for Casey based on the BRACE Character Profile, let me make it clear that the opposite would be true. The following is an excerpt from Profiling Casey (bold added):

“In light of the absence of any overall positive correlation with the characteristics of Antisocial Personality Disorder, this combination reveals a level of narcissism that rises to Psychopathy. In combination with the fact that 1) there is no irrational thinking based on paranoid characteristics, 2) no perceptual distortions associated with Schizotypal characteristics, 3) power and control issues are not those associated with a Paranoid Personality Disorder, and 4) Histrionic characteristics exceed Narcissistic characteristics, this is the profile of a person prone to dramatic, uninhibited and dangerous acting-out. This person is independent, proactive, flexible and socially engaging. This is a person with characteristics consistent with a socially engaging Psychopath who motivated by social and interpersonal control, direct or indirect.”

Sorry if I caused any confusion,
Russell

 

[Quiche]

I once lived next to a family whose 12 year old son had Conduct Disorder. Everyone within at least a half mile radius was familiar with the kid. He was expelled from every school he had been in, assaulted teachers, had 3 felony charges by the time he was 11 years old, bullied and beat the crap out of dozens of children, broke into multiple homes in the neighborhood, was using drugs, stealing cars, shooting at animals with pellet and paint ball guns and set a wooded area on fire. I'm pretty confident that IF ICA had Conduct Disorder there would have been people in the neighborhood or prior classmates who were victimized talking about it on the news shows. After the fire he was sent to a locked youth facility.

I haven't heard much about her growing up years, but I look forward to any questioning that lends some clarity there, that's for sure.

 

[beach]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6323847&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Professional Posters & Verified Locals/Insiders[/ame]

 

[chicklet]

Just in case my using Antisocial Personality Disorder as an example related to diagnostic criteria in a prior post is interpreted as meaning that I consider APD as a potential diagnosis for Casey based on the BRACE Character Profile, let me make it clear that the opposite would be true. The following is an excerpt from Profiling Casey (bold added):

“In light of the absence of any overall positive correlation with the characteristics of Antisocial Personality Disorder, this combination reveals a level of narcissism that rises to Psychopathy. In combination with the fact that 1) there is no irrational thinking based on paranoid characteristics, 2) no perceptual distortions associated with Schizotypal characteristics, 3) power and control issues are not those associated with a Paranoid Personality Disorder, and 4) Histrionic characteristics exceed Narcissistic characteristics, this is the profile of a person prone to dramatic, uninhibited and dangerous acting-out. This person is independent, proactive, flexible and socially engaging. This is a person with characteristics consistent with a socially engaging Psychopath who motivated by social and interpersonal control, direct or indirect.”

Sorry if I caused any confusion,
Russell

I don't see APD for ICA either. I think it's really common for people to attach the "Sociopath" label in most criminal cases. I usually try to explain the diagnostic criteria when I see that because it does get thrown out there far too often. I can definitely pick up on the traits of the PDs you mention here as well. I'd be very curious to find out about any possible self-mutilation because her behavior during those 31 days remind me of several other young mothers diagnosed with BPD that I have worked with. How frustrated others have gotten with ICA is a huge tip off, IMO, because people with BPD tend to frustrate and irritate people more than any other diagnosis.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I work with people who have mental illness and have considerable experience with virtually every mental illness, including personality disorders. I don't think ICA has Antisocial Personality Disorder. If she had that there would be a considerable history of violence, not just stealing. A sociopath is more likely to mug and beat someone to steal money than to sneak it from family and friends. ICA would also have shown signs of a Conduct Disorder as a child with onset prior to age 15. I haven't seen or heard any reports of ICA having a history of violent assaults at all and that would be present if she had Antisocial Personality Disorder. Keep in mind that I work with many people who have been diagnosed and are in treatment who are Sociopaths, a couple of Psychopaths, sex offenders, people with Borderline, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder and even one person with multiple personalities (Dissociative Identity Disorder). Based on what I know of mental illness and what I have seen/read about ICA I would say Borderline Personality Disorder or Bipolar (leaning more towards BPD) with Narcissistic traits. Other possibilities could include PTSD or some kind of anxiety disorder. Again...with Antisocial Personality Disorder there is always a significant history of violence against others.

Did you get approved as a professional here yet?

 

[Ada]

Respectfully I disagree that a history of violence is always manifested or apparent in APD. ICA was only 22 years old at the time of the crime. We have no evidence of conduct disorder but we also have no evidence of self-harm either.

In my lay understanding of comorbidity some 'traits' may be more pervasive than others. Case in point - my ex did not become violent or aggressive until his 20's. He was tiny as an adolescent/young adult and usually fodder for bullies. He has been dx'd as APD/NPD.

Anyway - comorbidity. I find it unlikely ICA is any 'one' disorder but rather an overlapping of a few. There are striking similarities between the cluster b's but I tend to think NPD/APD and HPD...which could as much account for her promiscuity as being a sexual abuse survivor. I myself do not see BPD or bipolar but that's just my little lay opinion.

I agree. My ex-husband is diagnosed as APD and he does not have a history of violence, and I never saw it during nor after our marriage. Not even when addled by drugs or alcohol. His mother was diagnosed as a sociopath, back in the 60s. Now that is an interesting woman. Don't get me started on the stories :crazy:

 

[Pink Panther]

The bottom line is that in order for ICA to have Antisocial Personality Disorder she would have HAD to have Conduct Disorder prior to turning 15 years old. That is part of the diagnostic criteria. That is a mandatory element of diagnosis. Unless ICA was doing things like setting fires, torturing animals, committing muggings, physical or sexual assaults or robbing and beating people prior to turning 15 years old then she simply cannot be a Sociopath. Some of the traits are interchangeable but some MUST be present in order to diagnose APD and the Conduct Disorder is one of the "MUST be present" traits. Hope this helps clear up any confusion.

HUH? Most respectfully Chicklet, where are you getting this information? I was married to a Sociopath and I can assure you that what you are stating here is incorrect. Do you have a link to what you are stating? Sociopaths/Psychopaths/ASPD is already so convoluted, I'm taken aback by your statements of "fact"!

moo

ETA - According to you if someone does not set fires, torture animals, committ muggings, do physical or sexual assaults or rob and beat people prior to turning 15 years old then they simply cannot be a Sociopath? Oh. Ok. Sorry but I think you've been grossly mislead. Most sociopaths get away with these behaviors but it is not a fact that they commit them.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Did you ever watch that film called I, Psychopath by Sam Varkin who was a diagnosed Psychopath? It's interesting that he was a first class con man but never violent. He thought he was a Narcissistic Sociopath, but testing showed he actually had quite a low rating.

It was an interesting but creepy film. It's in with the collection of Dr. Robert Hare.

good post..dude got 18 out of 24 on the official Psychopathy Checklist with no history of physical violence.

 

[wonderllama]

Profile of the Sociopath
Glibness and Superficial Charm


Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.


Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."


Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.


Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.


Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.


Incapacity for Love


Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal.


Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.


Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.


Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.


Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.


Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.


Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.


Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.



Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
ICA behavior also fits a Sociopath behavior. Every behavior you just posted and much more applies to Sociopath . ICA has more of the characteristics of a Sociopath then BPD and I wouldn't be surprised if the psychiatrists the DT brought in to see ICA came to the same conclusion I did.

This SO fits almost perfectly a guy I used to be friends with....amazing.

 

[Wendyjo]

I'm a little confused why some folks believe Casey Anthony to be mentally ill. Her actions (lying, stealing and promiscuity) are not socially acceptable but do not necessarily mean she is mentally ill. Those consistent behaviors do strongly support her having one or more personality disorders but that doesn't make her mentally ill (just a PIA and not socially acceptable).

I'm also at a loss to comprehend why so many blame Mr. and Mrs. Anthony for the twisted twit's selfish, dangerous and self-destructive conduct and even her demeanour. There comes a time when each individual is responsible for all their actions and each of them have long ago reached that time. It appears to me that Mr. and Mrs. Anthony are willing to take responsibility for their behaviors, their decisions - regardless of how painful. Yet, Casey continues in attempt to avoid the consequences of every decision and action she has ever made.

 

[Padua]

I'm verified. I am a Clinical Psychologist and a member in good standing with the American Psychological Association.

Regarding questions on Antisocial Personality Disorder:

APD is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that BEGINS in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. Individuals with APD also often have personality features that meet criteria for other PDs, particularly Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic PD. The likelihood of developing APD in adult life is increased if the individual experienced an early onset of Conduct Disorder (before age 10) and accompanying ADHD.

DX criteria:

There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and vioation of the rights of others occurring SINCE AGE 15 years as indicated by THREE OR MORE of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. Consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

However, not everybody who commits a crime has a PD. Most individuals who commit antisocial acts do not have any mental disorder. Some individuals choose a life of crime as a means of earning a living and do not meet the other criteria for APD (e.g. someone who commits the acts purely for gain such as a professional drug dealer or killer). APD is not meant to be used to describe individuals who perform isolated antisocial acts. If late - developing or isolated antisocial behaviors become a focus of clinical attention, they can be noted by using "Adult Antisocial Behavior."

The only effective treatment for APD appears to be the passage of time. Those individuals who do not get killed or kill themselves and survive into their 40s tend to mellow out and become less impulsive and predatory.

 

[Ada]

HUH? Most respectfully Chicklet, where are you getting this information? I was married to a Sociopath and I can assure you that what you are stating here is incorrect. Do you have a link to what you are stating? Sociopaths/Psychopaths/ASPD is already so convoluted, I'm taken aback by your statements of "fact"!

moo

ETA - According to you if someone does not set fires, torture animals, committ muggings, do physical or sexual assaults or rob and beat people prior to turning 15 years old then they simply cannot be a Sociopath? Oh. Ok. Sorry but I think you've been grossly mislead. Most sociopaths get away with these behaviors but it is not a fact that they commit them.

I'm verified. I am a Clinical Psychologist and a member in good standing with the American Psychological Association.

Regarding questions on Antisocial Personality Disorder:

APD is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that BEGINS in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. Individuals with APD also often have personality features that meet criteria for other PDs, particularly Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic PD. The likelihood of developing APD in adult life is increased if the individual experienced an early onset of Conduct Disorder (before age 10) and accompanying ADHD.

DX criteria:

There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and vioation of the rights of others occurring SINCE AGE 15 years as indicated by THREE OR MORE of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. Consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

However, not everybody who commits a crime has a PD. Most individuals who commit antisocial acts do not have any mental disorder. Some individuals choose a life of crime as a means of earning a living and do not meet the other criteria for APD (e.g. someone who commits the acts purely for gain such as a professional drug dealer or killer). APD is not meant to be used to describe individuals who perform isolated antisocial acts. If late - developing or isolated antisocial behaviors become a focus of clinical attention, they can be noted by using "Adult Antisocial Behavior."

The only effective treatment for APD appears to be the passage of time. Those individuals who do not get killed or kill themselves and survive into their 40s tend to mellow out and become less impulsive and predatory.

Yes Pink Panther, Chicklet was correct.

Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. The implication was that these things are required for a dx. Then your post indicates that at least 3 of the criteria that followed must be present. You can get well more than 3 without setting fires, torturing animals and assaulting people. :waitasec:

Please clarify! Thanks!

 

[Padua]

Wait, that doesn't make sense to me. The implication was that these things are required for a dx. Then your post indicates that at least 3 of the criteria that followed must be present. You can get well more than 3 without setting fires, torturing animals and assaulting people. :waitasec:

Please clarify! Thanks!

I think I misread Chicklets post. :loser: Yep I did. Seeing if I can go back and delete my response to Pink Panther. Thanks for catching that.

 

[cuppy199]

I work with people who have mental illness and have considerable experience with virtually every mental illness, including personality disorders. I don't think ICA has Antisocial Personality Disorder. If she had that there would be a considerable history of violence, not just stealing. A sociopath is more likely to mug and beat someone to steal money than to sneak it from family and friends. ICA would also have shown signs of a Conduct Disorder as a child with onset prior to age 15. I haven't seen or heard any reports of ICA having a history of violent assaults at all and that would be present if she had Antisocial Personality Disorder. Keep in mind that I work with many people who have been diagnosed and are in treatment who are Sociopaths, a couple of Psychopaths, sex offenders, people with Borderline, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder and even one person with multiple personalities (Dissociative Identity Disorder). Based on what I know of mental illness and what I have seen/read about ICA I would say Borderline Personality Disorder or Bipolar (leaning more towards BPD) with Narcissistic traits. Other possibilities could include PTSD or some kind of anxiety disorder. Again...with Antisocial Personality Disorder there is always a significant history of violence against others.

Not everyone who is a sociopath has a violent history. Not all sociopaths have the same characters on the list some have only a few and others have more. I do agree with the Narcissistic traits. ICA seems more Sociopath Narcissistic. I do have to give you kudo's for what you do with working people with mental illness Takes a person with a big heart bless you

 

[momof7]

BBM.

What intrigues me is ... why not call this number on June 16/17?

I believe that there was a major bust-up on Father's day between CA and ICA and ICA disappeared with Caylee .... never to return. Given the nature of that event I'd be concerned as to the welfare of Caylee that would increase in the first 24-48 hours and then progressively escalate.

After the fact CA testifies that she checked on ICA and CA the morning of June 16 and heard them breathing ... through the door. She covers and talks about ICA and Caylee going off to bond but this is a key time.

What was CA really thinking in those early hours and days when everything changed and Caylee never came home? CA knew that things had changed, knew that ICA was not responding to requests to bring Caylee home ... even let CA speak to Caylee.

If CA knew of ZFG why did she not call her when ICA first started making the excuses as to where Caylee was? You can put it down to CA assuming ICA was being spiteful and keeping Caylee away but ... if CA knew of ZFG and given CA's ways ... why didn't she check up? Where was ICA and Caylee staying?

I think the first few days after the fight when Caylee did not come home or was available on the phone are crucial ... CA obviously did not buy the ZFG thing ... so her supporting story does not make sense.

This is what perplexes me as well, from a mother/grandmother point of view. I had a rough patch with my ydd. Around 17 or 18 she decided her friends were her family, she had already had a DUI and just couldn't live with the rules. She also was the mother of my grandson who lived with us. After several vicious fights, nothing physical, but a lot of emotion involved, she moved out. Friend to friend. My grandson was with his fathers family. But he was the first person I looked for and it only took about 12 hours of no contact for me to start looking. Then, I called ODD, who I knew my ydd would be in contact with and told her to let me know every couple days how dd was doing. It took 9 months for her to realize, family is family. Rules aren't so bad when they come with a place to live. And being a mother was really more important than she thought.

I can not for the life of me figure out why CA was not turning over every stone looking for someone, anyone who knew Z and could tell her how the baby was doing. Just don't get the level of denial. CA seems to love that baby and was willing to take care of her. Its weird, something not right at all about that IMHO.

Kelly