Casey as "co-counsel" ...good strategy or no?

[Perelandra48]

This website is an easily accessible, free place for the DT to garner a wealth of the kind of detailed information regarding trial strategy and public perception of their client that usually would be quite costly.

I was becoming concerned about all the commentary and especially the poll that clearly quantified opinion on KC's behavior in court. It (the behavior) was bizarre. It was so bizarre that I wondered if it was encouraged by the DT to offer evidence of some kind of dissociative fugue state that, "as you can see, continues to this day, ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"

Today KC's notetaking and general "busyness" at the defense table was severely curtailed. She actually looked at and listened to her mother and even exchanged eye contact and words, albiet silently mouthed. Unless I've missed something (which is always possible) that was the most interaction she has displayed with her mother since the jail tapes.

She also looked at and appeared to be listening to the other witnesses during testimony. She gave the appearance of being more normally engaged than she has previously.

I noticed far less of the self-grooming tics today.

I wonder if she is newly taking psychoactive medications or has had a change in type or a dosage adjustment. That, or she is finally either receiving or paying attention to coaching that is more than likely based on information gathered here.

Anyway, I think this site has been a gold mine of useful advice and information for the people we least want to help in the world. I know of no way to avoid this except to be a lot more careful of what is said and to be sure to offer them no more polls.

If only there were some way to continue to discuss this case and it's characters without allowing them access! Is there?

 

[janine]

This website is an easily accessible, free place for the DT to garner a wealth of the kind of detailed information regarding trial strategy and public perception of their client that usually would be quite costly.

I was becoming concerned about all the commentary and especially the poll that clearly quantified opinion on KC's behavior in court. It (the behavior) was bizarre. It was so bizarre that I wondered if it was encouraged by the DT to offer evidence of some kind of dissociative fugue state that, "as you can see, continues to this day, ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"

Today KC's notetaking and general "busyness" at the defense table was severely curtailed. She actually looked at and listened to her mother and even exchanged eye contact and words, albiet silently mouthed. Unless I've missed something (which is always possible) that was the most interaction she has displayed with her mother since the jail tapes.

She also looked at and appeared to be listening to the other witnesses during testimony. She gave the appearance of being more normally engaged than she has previously.

I noticed far less of the self-grooming tics today.

I wonder if she is newly taking psychoactive medications or has had a change in type or a dosage adjustment. That, or she is finally either receiving or paying attention to coaching that is more than likely based on information gathered here.

Anyway, I think this site has been a gold mine of useful advice and information for the people we least want to help in the world. I know of no way to avoid this except to be a lot more careful of what is said and to be sure to offer them no more polls.

If only there were some way to continue to discuss this case and it's characters without allowing them access! Is there?

I agree, but as I was reading your post I was remembering the woman (I can't remember the lady's name who works with Padilla). Anyway, his assistant. When she was giving her statement to LE about her time spent with ICA while out on bond- she mentioned Websleuths and all the 'losers who sit on their computers all day. :floorlaugh: :woohoo:

I guess she's not so much a fan.:crazy:

 

[2goldfish]

ynotdivein I just posted this in the "Trial By Ambush" thread.


The HUGE thing that bugs the living crap out of me is knowing that the DT reads here and uses "our" lawyers' (AZ, etc.) arguments! :furious: Evidently they read here that ICA looked ridiculous "playing attorney" while in court so they toned that down a notch today. :furious: I really wish the DT wasn't allowed to read here because they are getting their brilliant ideas here at WS!!!! :banghead:

It makes me sick to know the DT not only reads here but "steals" ideas/theories from our posters! :furious:

it is frustrating to know that we're "helping" her in a way but really the facts speak for themselves. there's no way they're getting her out of this, none. so if they can sort her clothes and try to do something about her death glares to witnesses, well at least it makes it a bit easier on us to watch.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

This website is an easily accessible, free place for the DT to garner a wealth of the kind of detailed information regarding trial strategy and public perception of their client that usually would be quite costly.

I was becoming concerned about all the commentary and especially the poll that clearly quantified opinion on KC's behavior in court. It (the behavior) was bizarre. It was so bizarre that I wondered if it was encouraged by the DT to offer evidence of some kind of dissociative fugue state that, "as you can see, continues to this day, ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"

Today KC's notetaking and general "busyness" at the defense table was severely curtailed. She actually looked at and listened to her mother and even exchanged eye contact and words, albiet silently mouthed. Unless I've missed something (which is always possible) that was the most interaction she has displayed with her mother since the jail tapes.

She also looked at and appeared to be listening to the other witnesses during testimony. She gave the appearance of being more normally engaged than she has previously.
I noticed far less of the self-grooming tics today.

I wonder if she is newly taking psychoactive medications or has had a change in type or a dosage adjustment. That, or she is finally either receiving or paying attention to coaching that is more than likely based on information gathered here.
Anyway, I think this site has been a gold mine of useful advice and information for the people we least want to help in the world. I know of no way to avoid this except to be a lot more careful of what is said and to be sure to offer them no more polls.

If only there were some way to continue to discuss this case and it's characters without allowing them access! Is there?

Welcome to WS Perelandra :seeya:

BBM

I too saw a more engaged prisoner, listening intently to the witnesses on the stand, inparticular, CA...It appears CA is now back in ICA's good graces, since she most definately told a huge "mistruth" on the stand...chalk it up to trauma, meds, whatever, it was wrong and Caylee's looking down upon you CeCe...You really should be ashamed of yourself. I now believe CA will be deemed a hostile witness once the trial begins...

I wonder if this prisoner is taking some form of medications..if she is, this will be due to this alleged PSTD she is now diagnosed with..I do hope the state is well aware of any changes in her medical history and when, if she is, was put on these meds...

I always focus on those little hands this prisoner always tries to hide which I believe were the hands used in Caylee's demise. Is she too aware of those little hands and what is alleged they did to precious Caylee...I hope she does read here and is the reason she tries to hide them...She is dispicable human, devoid of human emotion, when she cries, its all for herself...she has never cried a single tear for precious Caylee...out of sight, out of mind..as if this baby never existed..Shame on the Anthony family for denying this precious child justice...so, since they are not in Caylee's corner, the fine State of Florida will get justice for this precious child...Who, IMO was worth more than the one who sits accused of her crime...

May she rot in hell for all eternity....with her mother at her side...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

 

[Sammiejam]

Yes, it is fascinating watching her trying to hide the murder weapons in open court. It must be difficult carrying those stained, reeking, dirty things around on the ends of your arms. She knows we all see them. I don't think there are sweater sleeves long enough anywhere to disguise them.

Using the murder weapons to write copious quantities of notes didn't help either. Just made us all more aware of how she needed to do something, ANYTHING with them. The "hiding in plain view" was a complete failure.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Ok if the DT is reading here and actually uses the information...here's some very useful information:
Cut Rapunzels hair, it is only a reminder of the fact she has been incarcerated for the murder of her precious child for a verrrry long time. The pictures that will be shown to the jury have ICA in short hair and then BAM she walks in with this 4 foot hairy thing down her back. Putting it in a bun only sharpens/hardens her face making ICA look more evil.
For the love of Gawd, quit shopping at the Goodwill for her court attire. The clothes are hideous and extremely out of date for a young woman her age. Again, the jury will see previous pics of ICA wearing somewhat stylish clothes and now dressing like Granny Gurt. It looks like the DT is trying to fool or trick the jury and the jury will notice this and will make a mental note to themselves to not be fooled by her appearance because the DT presented her this way. ICA doesn't have to wear mini skirts and look like she is going out for cocktails but age appropriate clothing would be best. Jurors are not stupid.

Your welcome for this free and useful advice, although, I am at a loss as how to curtail the paper dilemma, write, tear, fold and tuck, write, tear, fold and tuck, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, write tear, fold and tuck, pull sleeves, feel hair, write, tear, fold and tuck!

 

[gogrannypop]

My free advice... Tell your client to take a plea deal. Going to trial is a huge waste of taxpayer monies. You can try to paint her in a good light, ambush the prosecution and whatever else, but it is perfectly clear that Inmate CA is guilty. You can't spin it any other way.

 

[janine]

Ok if the DT is reading here and actually uses the information...here's some very useful information:
Cut Rapunzels hair, it is only a reminder of the fact she has been incarcerated for the murder of her precious child for a verrrry long time. The pictures that will be shown to the jury have ICA in short hair and then BAM she walks in with this 4 foot hairy thing down her back. Putting it in a bun only sharpens/hardens her face making ICA look more evil.
For the love of Gawd, quit shopping at the Goodwill for her court attire. The clothes are hideous and extremely out of date for a young woman her age. Again, the jury will see previous pics of ICA wearing somewhat stylish clothes and now dressing like Granny Gurt. It looks like the DT is trying to fool or trick the jury and the jury will notice this and will make a mental note to themselves to not be fooled by her appearance because the DT presented her this way. ICA doesn't have to wear mini skirts and look like she is going out for cocktails but age appropriate clothing would be best. Jurors are not stupid.

Your welcome for this free and useful advice, although, I am at a loss as how to curtail the paper dilemma, write, tear, fold and tuck, write, tear, fold and tuck, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, write tear, fold and tuck, pull sleeves, feel hair, write, tear, fold and tuck!

All very good and accurate advice- Problem is though, nothing will help. She is what she is. They could dress this girl Versace and it won't make a bit of difference.

About the hair- You nailed that so hard. That unkempt mess only serves as a reminder just how long this baby has taken to get her justice. Her mother has been lying in a cot for 3 years plotting her exit out of prison. And like you said, the bun is worse. It makes her look truly evil......There's really no way to describe it accurately. She just looks mean.
A nice short bob or sassy cut might help soften that face up.........not that it will help :banghead: but at least it will help us who have to watch her in court every day:floorlaugh:

 

[countzero]

Let's not forget we can type recommendations, advice or whatever for the DT but the final decision will be ICAs on her hair. That is the only thing she has control over. The more she is pressed to cut it, the harder she will fight to keep it. She can't do much about the clothes; she gets what is provided to her to wear and it seems that is CAs choice and responsibility. JB certainly isn't gonna spend his "slave wages" on her. CM doesn't care either.

ICA will fight them tooth and nail to keep her hands busy writing, shifting papers and reading legal pads upside down. No one can do anything about her facial expressions. They are far too engrained into her personality.

 

[logicalgirl]

ynotdivein I just posted this in the "Trial By Ambush" thread.


The HUGE thing that bugs the living crap out of me is knowing that the DT reads here and uses "our" lawyers' (AZ, etc.) arguments! :furious: Evidently they read here that ICA looked ridiculous "playing attorney" while in court so they toned that down a notch today. :furious: I really wish the DT wasn't allowed to read here because they are getting their brilliant ideas here at WS!!!! :banghead:

It makes me sick to know the DT not only reads here but "steals" ideas/theories from our posters! :furious:

Yes, but seriously......has it helped????:great:

 

[aspiring drifter]

This website is an easily accessible, free place for the DT to garner a wealth of the kind of detailed information regarding trial strategy and public perception of their client that usually would be quite costly.

I was becoming concerned about all the commentary and especially the poll that clearly quantified opinion on KC's behavior in court. It (the behavior) was bizarre. It was so bizarre that I wondered if it was encouraged by the DT to offer evidence of some kind of dissociative fugue state that, "as you can see, continues to this day, ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"

Today KC's notetaking and general "busyness" at the defense table was severely curtailed. She actually looked at and listened to her mother and even exchanged eye contact and words, albiet silently mouthed. Unless I've missed something (which is always possible) that was the most interaction she has displayed with her mother since the jail tapes.

She also looked at and appeared to be listening to the other witnesses during testimony. She gave the appearance of being more normally engaged than she has previously.

I noticed far less of the self-grooming tics today.

I wonder if she is newly taking psychoactive medications or has had a change in type or a dosage adjustment. That, or she is finally either receiving or paying attention to coaching that is more than likely based on information gathered here.

Anyway, I think this site has been a gold mine of useful advice and information for the people we least want to help in the world. I know of no way to avoid this except to be a lot more careful of what is said and to be sure to offer them no more polls.

If only there were some way to continue to discuss this case and it's characters without allowing them access! Is there?

it all must have been grueling for her i'm sure. although, she doesn't need meds, her natural looney is her meds.

 

[aspiring drifter]

Ok if the DT is reading here and actually uses the information...here's some very useful information:
Cut Rapunzels hair, it is only a reminder of the fact she has been incarcerated for the murder of her precious child for a verrrry long time. The pictures that will be shown to the jury have ICA in short hair and then BAM she walks in with this 4 foot hairy thing down her back. Putting it in a bun only sharpens/hardens her face making ICA look more evil.
For the love of Gawd, quit shopping at the Goodwill for her court attire. The clothes are hideous and extremely out of date for a young woman her age. Again, the jury will see previous pics of ICA wearing somewhat stylish clothes and now dressing like Granny Gurt. It looks like the DT is trying to fool or trick the jury and the jury will notice this and will make a mental note to themselves to not be fooled by her appearance because the DT presented her this way. ICA doesn't have to wear mini skirts and look like she is going out for cocktails but age appropriate clothing would be best. Jurors are not stupid.

Your welcome for this free and useful advice, although, I am at a loss as how to curtail the paper dilemma, write, tear, fold and tuck, write, tear, fold and tuck, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, write tear, fold and tuck, pull sleeves, feel hair, write, tear, fold and tuck!

she needs her hair to make her feel better cause her face ain't helping. she makes the goofiest faces and gushes when baez comes around. she sits there and makes guilty faces because all these people along with us and massive amounts of money being spent are all so because of her stupidity and she knows it. and the hands? aren't those types of sleeves suppose to be folded up once or twice. i have sweaters with sleeves like that and i think they're supposed to be put up a bit but she's still 13 years old so what do you expect? i honestly don't know what she can do to make herself look better and she knows it too cause she feels dumb for being there to begin with.

 

[Della]

It does seem as though the defense team reads message board posts and heeds some of the advice, most notably in regards to ICA's behavior and mannerisms. I say we just give them lots of room for their errors and see what happens. It is what it is!

 

[pip]

It does seem as though the defense team reads message board posts and heeds some of the advice, most notably in regards to ICA's behavior and mannerisms. I say we just give them lots of room for their errors and see what happens. It is what it is!

:welcome:


I agree they read the forums. DSimms was questioning an expert via skype at the hearing the other day and said, "Can you see me? I'm the one with the bad hair", and points at her head. Yeah, she reads the blogs. People were talking about her frizzy hair being a mess.

 

[Novice Seeker]

she needs her hair to make her feel better cause her face ain't helping. she makes the goofiest faces and gushes when baez comes around. she sits there and makes guilty faces because all these people along with us and massive amounts of money being spent are all so because of her stupidity and she knows it. and the hands? aren't those types of sleeves suppose to be folded up once or twice. i have sweaters with sleeves like that and i think they're supposed to be put up a bit but she's still 13 years old so what do you expect? i honestly don't know what she can do to make herself look better and she knows it too cause she feels dumb for being there to begin with.

IIRC constant playing with one's own hair is a common behavior seen in narcisstic personalities which ICA habitually does. And, IMO, her obsessive habit of re-adjusting her shirt sleeves and checking her neck and shoulder areas are extensions of this particular behavior seen in these personalities.

I've noticed that it appears, IMO, ICA is exhibiting a form of self-mutilation. She's too conceited to "cut" so her release is digging her nails into her palms and gnawing at her lips.

This site offers an easy to understand discussion of the key factors seen with self-mutilation.

http://www.answers.com/topic/self-mutilation




Novice Seeker

 

[pip]

IIRC constant playing with one's own hair is a common behavior seen in narcisstic personalities which ICA habitually does. And, IMO, her obsessive habit of re-adjusting her shirt sleeves and checking her neck and shoulder areas are extensions of this particular behavior seen in these personalities.

I've noticed that it appears, IMO, ICA is exhibiting a form of self-mutilation. She's too conceited to "cut" so her release is digging her nails into her palms and gnawing at her lips.

This site offers an easy to understand discussion of the key factors seen with self-mutilation.

http://www.answers.com/topic/self-mutilation




Novice Seeker

The constant grooming, adjusting, checking etc. is a compulsive attempt to maintain a perfect exterior image (perfect looks = control) which is the polar opposite of how she is feeling inside. The more crazy and out of control she feels inside, the more she grooms. It is bizarre to watch it. It extends to other little things too, ever notice how she manages her office supplies? Every stack of paper is even, straight on the desk, aligned with notebooks. She places her pen perfectly even with the edge of her papers. Neurosis. Cindy always did the same thing when she toted her lil notebook, papers and pen to interviews with the FBI and LE. George, same perfectness. Not a hair out of place. Mr. Neatnik.

 

[Novice Seeker]

The constant grooming, adjusting, checking etc. is a compulsive attempt to maintain a perfect exterior image (perfect looks = control) which is the polar opposite of how she is feeling inside. The more crazy and out of control she feels inside, the more she grooms. It is bizarre to watch it. It extends to other little things too, ever notice how she manages her office supplies? Every stack of paper is even, straight on the desk, aligned with notebooks. She places her pen perfectly even with the edge of her papers. Neurosis. Cindy always did the same thing when she toted her lil notebook, papers and pen to interviews with the FBI and LE. George, same perfectness. Not a hair out of place. Mr. Neatnik.

I think both of us are noting behaviors that tend to be classical characteristic traits of a naraccistic, anti-social personality such as what we're seeing in ICA,(IMO)

Here is another good site that does a good review of this type of behavior.

http://www.answers.com/topic/self-mutilation

(snipped)
Signs and symptomsCharacteristics of people with antisocial personality disorder may include:[12]

Apparent lack of remorse[13] or empathy for others. Studies show they self-report the same lack of feeling.[14]

No conscience (no concern for right or wrong)[15], although they may pretend to have one.[16]
Persistent lying or stealing[17]

Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others (people used a pawns against individuals selected as targets) towards the end of domination and control at the expense of victims.[18]

Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper

A history of childhood conduct disorder[21]

Promiscuity

Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others[23]

Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).[25]

Poor or abusive relationships

Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).[26]

Irresponsible work behavior[27]

Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also sociopathic or is APD like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).

Doesn't know what love or caring is, so can't imagine that anyone else really feels it. Others must be faking.[30]

Emotionally color-blind (with the exception of anger, jealously, humour, lust and possibly mild fear).[31] Does feel pleasure when controlling others.[32]
Can not feel love. Does not know what it is. When others express love towards them, they see this as a weakness and try to use it to their advantage.[33]

Are very good actors.[34] They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so).[35] In many cases can trick people for years.[36]



Novice Seeker

 

[Mendara]

It looks like ICA was told to limit her writing and binders and pens and markers. It was really apparent during the 4/1 Frye hearing that she was told to stop.

 

[Leila]

It's all over the internet, discussions about KC sorting and organizing her own legal files, looking at the computer screen, "conferring" with all defense attorneys, scribbling away like a rabid stenographer, and in general looking and acting for all the world as if she is employed by the defense.

One InSession pundit (I believe) opined about how this was GOOD, that it makes KC look very engaged and aware. Most forum discussions, however, seem to be negative about her new "position".

What is your opinion? Is it a good idea or a bad idea for KC to literally authentically BE part her defense team?

I voted for "it's a good strategy", but I probably should have opted for "other."

Strictly from the defense's point of view, I can see pros and cons in having Casey as part of the legal defense team.

On the con side, it makes Casey seem detached from the case, as others here have mentioned.

On the pro side, having Casey scribble on a legal pad, and look up things in her tabbed notebook, keeps her busy. This busy work is keeping her occupied. Without that distraction and without anything else to occupy her, she will likely focus on the witness testimony and if the witness says something that angers her, she might express that anger.

I think the defense has had to juggle two possibilities - that the jury sees a seemingly intelligent young woman who seems detached from her case before the court. Or, the jury sees anger from the defendant, either in the form of a facial expression or an angry outburst.

 

[littlemisslegal]

i will never forget the chilling jessica lunsford trial and john using his coloring crayons- ugh - give her a etch a sketch -lol.