Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

[Amity]

Schizophrenia is a psychosis, a personality disorder is not. Basically what this means is that the schizophrenic person has a break from reality in the form of delusions and/or hallucinations. They have no control over these symptoms. Casey is not schizophrenic and her lies are not delusional due to the fact that she has control over them IMO...she knows they are lies. Others would be aware of her psychosis because it is a thought disorder and would result in bizarre beliefs and behavior not based in reality. Casey's lies are to protect herself, manipulate others or improve her status with others. So far there is no indication that she ever experienced auditory or visual hallucinations. A schizophrenic person also experiences feelings of guilt, remorse and grief....emotions not seen in Casey. If Casey was delusional she wouldn't have hidden her delusions from others and lie to cover them up...she would not have acted "normally" with her friends.

I hope that makes sense...I tend to ramble sometimes.

Makes perfect sense. Thank you SoftSoul.
I have an couple examples for others who might not understand the breaking with reality aspects.

My Grandmother.
My mom says she always knew something was different about her Mom.
My Great-Grandma verified (long before she died) that my Grandma, her daughter, was 'different'.

Fast forward....
My Grandma had to be taken from her home, kicking and screaming in a white jacket.
We were finally able to enter the home (after climbing over years of 3 dobermans' poop and piles and piles of rotted food) and of all the things we discovered, the notes my Grandmother wrote to 'whoever' were the eeriest.

Examples:

I am walking to the market now. If you come into my home and continue to steal me blind I will report you!"

To whom it may concern: Stop coming into my home when I am asleep and eating my food. I can barely afford to feed myself and my dogs and you take my food? STOP IT, NOW before I call the athorities on you!

I know you are watching me through my television. If you don't cease and desist immediately I'm going to report you!

These are just an example of the hundreds of notes we found. Found and learned lots of other things while we were cleaning the home but the notes, it was almost surreal reading them.

Oh, my grandmother was highly intelligent. Always held very high profile jobs and was extremely good at anything she did. People didn't question her when symptoms were getting worse....because of her intelligence.

 

[FLSleuth]

After it had been proven to everyone that Casey did not have a job at Universal, hadn't for years, the interrogating officer was leading her through the evening when she last saw Caylee and said, "So you got off work, you left work here, and went to the Sawgrass..." and Casey said yes. It was so weird. She was right back into the bald lie as though the last half hour never happened. It was like, I see you know it's a lie, I admitted it's a lie, but it's MY lie and I'm sticking to it!

I caught that, too. I think it's a case of telling the same lie for sooooo long, she began to believe it herself.

 

[Pink Panther]

Lots of interesting ideas and information on this thread! I have no doubts that KC is a sociopath...But I think that CA is as well! This family is way off the radar of what falls into "normal" and it's quite possible that this is due to more than one member being "askew".

I am not a psychiatrist and this is, of course, just my opinion.

 

[future criminologist]

Lots of interesting ideas and information on this thread! I have no doubts that KC is a sociopath...But I think that CA is as well! This family is way off the radar of what falls into "normal" and it's quite possible that this is due to more than one member being "askew".

I am not a psychiatrist and this is, of course, just my opinion.

I agree with you on Casey absolutely, but I do think CA is more of a narcissist or a borderline personality than a sociopath. I think that narcissists have consciences and the desire to care for people, but they'e never learned the proper way to do it, and because maybe their own needs were not met as children (by perhaps neglectful or selfish parents themselves), they have to have their own needs met before they can meet anyone else's. and other people, particularly their children, they see almost as parts or "pieces" of themselves that are under their control and must reflect themselves. there's a lot of "enmeshment" issues going on here - someone that's never cut the umbilical cord, so to speak. I think they still care, they just have a f--ed up way of expressing or communicating love and caring. anyone agree with me on this description?

I can tell you from having a possible NPD parent that there is love there, but it is always conditional. When I hear people say "I would do anything for my child" and talk about unconditional love, I'm almost envious because I'm not sure I've ever experienced a relationship without conditions before.

 

[Pink Panther]

I agree with you on Casey absolutely, but I do think CA is more of a narcissist or a borderline personality than a sociopath. I think that narcissists have consciences and the desire to care for people, but they'e never learned the proper way to do it, and because maybe their own needs were not met as children (by perhaps neglectful or selfish parents themselves), they have to have their own needs met before they can meet anyone else's. and other people, particularly their children, they see almost as parts or "pieces" of themselves that are under their control and must reflect themselves. there's a lot of "enmeshment" issues going on here - someone that's never cut the umbilical cord, so to speak. I think they still care, they just have a f--ed up way of expressing or communicating love and caring. anyone agree with me on this description?

I can tell you from having a possible NPD parent that there is love there, but it is always conditional. When I hear people say "I would do anything for my child" and talk about unconditional love, I'm almost envious because I'm not sure I've ever experienced a relationship without conditions before.

Could be. I don't profess to know enough about the subject to really be able to comment...I am simply struck by the fact that, like her daughter, she doesn't really seem to show concern about Caylee. I am completely at a loss as to how to "give her a break" on this. Even when she has been distraught and snivelling a bit in interviews, she talks more about herself and how tired she is than about the fact that her Grand-daughter is missing and potentially in danger!

 

[Sammiejam]

IMHO, the lying is what proves that she IS sane. The lies prove that a)she knows that it is wrong to harm your child
b)self-preservation - she wants to move on with her fun, single life with the pesky hassle of daughters, police, or courtcases.
c)she is trying to garner sympathy for herself with the particular kind of lies she is telling, ie she is discrimating and deliberate about what she is saying. She has an accute awareness about the of the kind of lies she needs to tell in this situation, eg "someone kidnapped her and I tried to find her myself!" (woe-is-me and arent-i-wonderful) as opposed to "I got drunk and then sold her to some guy who offered me $50k", and is therefore using powers of reason to manipulate the situation.

In summary - SANE AND RATIONAL.

 

[future criminologist]

IMHO, the lying is what proves that she IS sane. The lies prove that a)she knows that it is wrong to harm your child
b)self-preservation - she wants to move on with her fun, single life with the pesky hassle of daughters, police, or courtcases.
c)she is trying to garner sympathy for herself with the particular kind of lies she is telling, ie she is discrimating and deliberate about what she is saying. She has an accute awareness that of the kind of lies she needs to tell in this situation, eg "someone kidnapped her and I tried to find her myself!" (woe-is-me and arent-i-wonderful) as opposed to "I got drunk and then sold her to some guy who offered me $50k", and is therefore using powers of reason to manipulate the situation.

In summary - SANE AND RATIONAL.

ABSOLUTELY. sane and a sociopath.

 

[Tuba]

I think Casey seriously misjudged police based on those she knew as "dates" and on her father, whom she manipulated as she did her mother. She thought she could work the legal system and deceive the police handily with her superior smarts. She employs police jargon even now. I think this misjudgment was the platform for her whole collection of lies. With encouragement from her defense team, her delusion has not yet been pierced.

 

[Betty Boop]

I think Casey seriously misjudged police based on those she knew as "dates" and on her father, whom she manipulated as she did her mother. She thought she could work the legal system and deceive the police handily with her superior smarts. She employs police jargon even now. I think this misjudgment was the platform for her whole collection of lies. With encouragement from her defense team, her delusion has not yet been pierced.

ITA
:clap: :blowkiss: :clap: :woohoo: :clap:

 

[Advocate4]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

 

[Betty Boop]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

I have absorbed the Lake Vaj info (and read about the JG/Geraldo interviews -- getting ready to watch the show at 11 pm Calif. time). You're right, the pictures painted are quite different.

Hoping for some clarification that will get me out of this state of ambivalence! This roller coaster has to stop. Well, tomorrow is another day. Will recoup and attack it from a fresh perspective. Maybe there will be Bombshell Developments soon.

Yepper. Ambivalent.

:waitasec:

 

[nobull]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

This assumes that she hadn't lied, stolen etc before June. I will bet any amount of money that she had just not gotten caught yet. In my experience, psychotic breaks similar to what you see in the movies just don't happen. Psychotic breaks are typically extremely scary situations for first-timers and in a perfect world require hospitalization either voluntarily or (most often) involuntarily. The best way to describe it is that the disease manipulates the person, not the other way around. Very few people accept this diagnosis when hearing it the first time, for a number of reasons.

I believe what you are referring to is more of a "temporary insanity" type defense rather than the term psychotic break which has different connotations altogether.

I believe this is a classic case of a highly intelligent, charismatic person that was, up to that time, deftly and knowingly manipulating those around her with a little Axis II thrown in for good measure. I can't wait to read the psych report when it finally comes out.

 

[magic-cat]

The only psychotic break that Casey has had is she got caught in her lies and in her theft crimes, and the FREE RIDE at home was OVER and she had to face the fact that she would have to get a JOB...what is THE one thing that people who do drugs FEAR? The DRUG TEST REQUIRED to get almost ANY job...perhaps little miss Casey did not want her weed or whatever else she was doing, to show up in a drug test. This girl did not just have some kind of breakdown, she has been doing this for her whole life. Notice that Exit13 said, Yeah, things did come up missing, but you know, that's the way it goes. Maybe that was one of her SOLE reasons to be there. Think about it. If you do not drink or get drunk then it is NO fun to be in that environment at all...but, a bunch of drunks would make for excellent and absentminded VICTIMS wouldn't they? She got caught and now everybody knows what she REALLY is and THAT is the only break that she has had.

 

[JohnVaughanCauthen]

Casey keeps saying her mother will never forgive her for what she did.

Her daughter could have died accidentally, and she thinks her mother would never forgive her for that. She needs the approval of her mother so much, she can’t live up to admitting her daughter’s accidental death. Those are real psychological issues that truly happen.

Maybe the whole strange ordeal is because she can't admit anything to her mother, who is still on her side. Sudden break downs don't happen.

Another scenario is that Casey intended to sell her daughter into adoption. Her mother would never forgive her of that, but Casey could claim the daughter had been kidnapped and her mother would never figure out the truth. The nanny, who might know some people would be the go-between. Yet, we are fairly sure from the decomposition odor in the car, Caylee is dead. The presence of chloroform indicates maybe Caylee was made unconscious so she wouldn’t know she was being sold by her own mother into adoption. She would wake up in a different place and not know what happened. That could have been the plan. Caylee could have died accidentally from the chloroform.

After that, Casey would have rationally set out to burn the body, bury it, and cover up the awful truth with every fiber in her being.

That might be the only explanation for why she lied like she has.

 

[Sammiejam]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

KC is a chameleon. She appears to be whatever she PERCIEVES that the person she is interacting with wants her to be.

Also being sickly sweet and a wonderful mummy is a great cover for being a lying, manipulative, cold-hearted grifter. Who ended up murdering her daughter. The pics of her at Lake Vag where she is sucking lollipops while posing in suggestive positions do not show an innocent, sweet girl IMHO. Neither do the stripper-pole and bra-diving pics (while Caylee is missing btw).

 

[softsoul]

ABSOLUTELY. sane and a sociopath.

Yes, Casey's lies are much too organized to be delusions. She is not psychotic and IMO not legally insane either.

 

[softsoul]

Casey keeps saying her mother will never forgive her for what she did.

Her daughter could have died accidentally, and she thinks her mother would never forgive her for that. She needs the approval of her mother so much, she can’t live up to admitting her daughter’s accidental death. Those are real psychological issues that truly happen.

Maybe the whole strange ordeal is because she can't admit anything to her mother, who is still on her side. Sudden break downs don't happen.

Another scenario is that Casey intended to sell her daughter into adoption. Her mother would never forgive her of that, but Casey could claim the daughter had been kidnapped and her mother would never figure out the truth. The nanny, who might know some people would be the go-between. Yet, we are fairly sure from the decomposition odor in the car, Caylee is dead. The presence of chloroform indicates maybe Caylee was made unconscious so she wouldn’t know she was being sold by her own mother into adoption. She would wake up in a different place and not know what happened. That could have been the plan. Caylee could have died accidentally from the chloroform.

After that, Casey would have rationally set out to burn the body, bury it, and cover up the awful truth with every fiber in her being.

That might be the only explanation for why she lied like she has.

If this was the only time she was known to lie in this way then maybe...but even then her other behaviors would throw up a red flag. However, she had lied for years about having a job, going to school and multiple other situations. She has also stolen from family and friends, cheated on boyfriends and appears to make the "rules" up as she goes along without any apparent sense of guilt or remorse.

 

[Bobby62]

Her friends from one circle say that she did not drink much. The newer friends seemed to have many pictures of her fdrinking to the point of system reversal.

G+C seemed to think she was a virgin up until she was seven months pregnant. I am guessing that they held pretty tight reigns on her when younger. Recent evidence suggests that she had developed an addiction to multiple partners, old and new, per month.

The old crowd did not seem to know her as much of a liar. The old and knew have found out she is in the lying Olympics.

The old crowd never thought of her as a thief. Grandma, Cindy, and AH found her to be a savant at it. She did not cover her tracks though.

Old friends spoke of her anti drug stance. Ryan said she smoked pot. He has known her a long time. She had recently injected herself into the club lifestyle. There are some drugs (x and oxycontin etc.) that are readily available. The info is not available yet to support her use or abuse.. I think her friends remain silent for the self incrimination thing.

I hope she never has another child.

 

[softsoul]

snipped



yes, but is treatment really possible? what meds can you put someone with a personality disorder on? I don't think its treatable. softsoul, can you weigh in on this?

I agree FC, medication is not used to treat personality disorders. PD's were put on Axis II, along with MR, as they were seen as pervasive, characterological disorders...in other words, not really responsive to treatment of any sort. However, recently some have claimed to have some success with treating PD's in group treatment. I have seen some changes in Borderline PD's who were involved in partial hospitalization groups. (Partial Hospitalization is a step down from the psych ward and very intensive.) The Borderline PD's I've seen have actually gained some insight into their behaviors, for example the attention seeking behaviors so common to BL's. I had one woman who would stop the behavior and say, "There goes my Borderline again." Although it doesn't stop the attention seeking it does interrupt it...if they are able to use this insight. In other words, I may know why I do something but I know no other way to act, or may not have an interest in acting differently. Also, you need to take into account that these are minimal changes which occurred after long-term, very intensive treatment. We have no way of knowing at this time if they are permanent changes or only short-term. I still believe if treatment can be effective at all then the effectiveness is very limited.

I've never heard of any successful treatment with Antisocial PD. The ONLY way known to impact their behavior is to threaten their own well-being, such as arrest. They simply do not care enough about anyone else to be motivated to change. (Interesting that Cindy often used threats with Casey...up to and including the 911 call) IMO this is why Casey will not talk...if she does she is going to jail anyway...it will hurt, not benefit HER. There is a lot of debate about whether or not an adult can ever develop empathy. Most of us begin developing empathy within the first year of life....so is there too much "making up to do"....still under debate and not very well researched. This might be best explained with an example- There was a Canadian serial killer who murdered several children...can't recall his name but maybe someone will know who I'm talking about. When he was finally arrested many of the victims bodies had not been found. LE attempted to get him to tell them where to find the bodies by saying this would allow many of the parents some degree of comfort by burying their children. His response was "If I cared about the parents I would not have killed their children." That's the ASPD in a nutshell.

 

[karenmamo]

I just finished reading the Lake Vaj "cliff notes". Taking those together with the Jesse Grund interview/s on Geraldo, the picture painted of Casey by these 2 fellas who know her seems VERY DIFFERENT from the analyses and thoughts we've all been coming up with here onsite. They tell of her being a sweet, smart, nice girl who did NOT do drugs (and got upset if someone was smoking weed), who drank very very little, who was a good friend to her friends and got along well with people. Neither Jesse nor Exit13 (Lake Vaj thread) knew her as a "pathological liar", either.

If she killed Caylee, it really is sounding more and more to me like she had some kind of psychotic "break". For example, supposing she killed Caylee accidentally and can't accept it herself -- and the story she has told about the nanny is something she has pieced together that seems most believable to her. In any case, the behavior she has exhibited since mid-June seems to be pretty much out of character for her.

After reading the above two items, what does anyone else think?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
.............only clapping here because you have stated what I have believed from the beginning.
Her hold on reality was very weak before the 'event.'
I feel too it was an accident--by neglect or accident.
Everyone who met Caylee adored her and not one person could believe kc could have harmed her. We have tried to make kc into a monster....it makes us feel better maybe.
After the 'accident' kc suffered PTS and just fell off the edge. She has not come back. She is in another reality. KC that others knew is just NOT there anymore.
KC does not believe her daughter is dead. How else could she sleep at night?!
I cannot imagine how Baez thinks he can ever defend her considering the mental condition she is in now. What a mess for him. Good luck, JB.
I am not making excuses for her, this is just how I have felt for so long.