Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1

[softsoul]

I see your point, and I agree we should try to understand it. I just don't think it matters as far as making her (or any other criminal) face the consequences, that's all.

So let's say the reason she did this is because she's a sociopath (just throwing it out there, I have no idea if that's what she is or not), and those seeds were planted in her over time beginning when she was very young. Or it's a "perfect storm" of many events in her life that led her to this. What would you think would be, as you say, an effective prevention to that? I'm truly curious, because I can't think of what that would be.

I just think sometimes people do things out of a purely selfish motivation, that's all. There doesn't always have to be a personality or mental "diagnosis" of some sort. JMHO.

We do not know enough at this point to have an effective prevention. That is the point in trying to understand Casey and others like her. For kids who exhibit clear antisocial traits there are treatment programs which try to intervene....some make a difference, some don't. If someone would have been aware of the family dynamics and recognized something earlier MAYBE an intervention would have helped but who really knows.

Yes, anyone can act on selfish motivations. Actually, we all have at some time or other if we're honest with ourselves. These actions normally don't involve crime, let alone murder. The act of killing someone doesn't in and of itself mean the person is mentally ill or has a personality disorder. In this situation many, including myself, do believe that Casey has a personality disorder...it goes beyond just selfish motivations, although she indeed appears to be quite selfish.

 

[Janis396]

We do not know enough at this point to have an effective prevention. That is the point in trying to understand Casey and others like her. For kids who exhibit clear antisocial traits there are treatment programs which try to intervene....some make a difference, some don't. If someone would have been aware of the family dynamics and recognized something earlier MAYBE an intervention would have helped but who really knows.

Yes, anyone can act on selfish motivations. Actually, we all have at some time or other if we're honest with ourselves. These actions normally don't involve crime, let alone murder. The act of killing someone doesn't in and of itself mean the person is mentally ill or has a personality disorder. In this situation many, including myself, do believe that Casey has a personality disorder...it goes beyond just selfish motivations, although she indeed appears to be quite selfish.

I just saw this post by Kiki, and I wanted to share it here because I think she captured exactly what's been in my head, but what I haven't been quite able to accurately express in this forum:

Originally Posted by kiki the parrot
"Guess my last post is slightly OT but my general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish legitimate defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and to seek retribution based on which of these is found present. Maybe both in some instances or none in others but legal insanity it seems seeks in theory to establish the presence of solely a mental one, one sufficient to prevent understanding at the time that their criminal actions were wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it seems people w personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will, albeit learned behavior (as OneGirl once pointed out) but ineligible for NGBRI. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology, or traceable cause, but no legally culpable influences. At the risk of repeating myself since I said this earlier in thread, after CA had let KC off for stealing her credit cards and virtually every transgression in her life, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draw the line that Father's Day, threatening during an argument to hold KC accountable for evidently the first time in KC's life for stealing from her aging grandparent. So in an odd sense, KC is actually correct then when she says, "I should've been stopped a long time ago" but her statement reveals a weakness of conscience and a consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart as opposed to a mental defect. And the law is unconcerned w such nuances, contributing factors, or how KC came to be the (reckless, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful or seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO"

 

[softsoul]

I posted these thoughts on homicide thread but they really may belong more here... My general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish "legitimate" defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and in turn seek retribution based on which of these is found present. There may be both in some instances, or none in others. But the legal insanity standard seeks in theory to establish (and to therefore protect those with) the presence of solely a mental one, sufficient to prevent comprehension at the time that their criminal actions are wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it would seem that those people with personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will ("If I only had a heart...") albeit learned behavior as OneLostGirl once said. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology or a traceable cause but no legally exhonerating ones. At the risk of repetition after CA had been in collusion with KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to begin acting like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--threatening to hold KC accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC is right then when she tells Lee, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." But this statement of KC's reveals both a weakness of conscience, and consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart, as opposed to a mental defect. Beyond which the law is essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO

IF I ONLY HAD A HEART
When a man's an empty kettle he should be on his mettle,
And yet I'm torn apart.
Just because I'm presumin' that I could be kind-a-human,
If I only had heart.
I'd be tender - I'd be gentle and awful sentimental
Regarding Love and Art.
I'd be friends with the sparrows ...
and the boys who shoots the arrows
If I only had a heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5RxCExyLeU

<bold mine>
I agree with what you said. However, I think it is important to not lump all personality disorders together. There are 10 PD types in the DSM. For example, those diagnosed with Avoidant PD very much have a heart, feel empathy, guilt, remorse, etc.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Quote: So let's say the reason she did this is because she's a sociopath (just throwing it out there, I have no idea if that's what she is or not), and those seeds were planted in her over time beginning when she was very young. Or it's a "perfect storm" of many events in her life that led her to this. What would you think would be, as you say, an effective prevention to that? I'm truly curious, because I can't think of what that would be. I just think sometimes people do things out of a purely selfish motivation, that's all. There doesn't always have to be a personality or mental "diagnosis" of some sort.

You're right there is nothing that can be done now to bring Caylee back nor really to reverse the damage that one disturbed, narcisstic young woman has already inflicted upon so many. But thank God for all of those psychiatrists, clergyman, educators and laypeople etc who do seek to understand the causes of antisocial personality or the making of a sociopath. The only way I can see to overcome that evil in the FUTURE is by hopefully educating parents as well as those in the counseling and therapy community toward a greater awareness of child and personality development. Sociopaths aren't born. And you can't do battle with a hidden "enemy." JMHO

 

[calgary]

It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

 

[kiki the parrot]

As an afterthought, just want to add that from what I've learned, very few narcissists will even participate in, much less seek out, treatment--which would be an admission of a fault or weakness (omg). And those who do (along with other PD's), often manipulate their counselors, unwilling to let down their defences, and therefore sabotaging any possible benefits. All of which would make the prognosis for someone like KC grim since they are unable to examine themselves honestly. The roots of NPD (eg) go so far back intervention would need to occur very early in childhood. So not really hopeful but not impossible. It might help if she was given permission to stop lying to CA.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think you are completely missing what I am trying to say. It isn't about making excuses or making violent behavior acceptable. That has absolutely nothing to do with it and should go without saying. The more we understand something the more control we have over it. To remain ignorant to the mental makeup of criminals will do nothing but make them more effective. The key is to understanding how it made sense to Casey to do whatever she did...not have it make sense to anyone else. Why did she choose to handle the situation as she did? You can say to be with a man but there are other ways to do that without killing your daughter. If there is ever going to be an effective prevention of this type of behavior you HAVE to know what you're dealing with. Maybe we never will know enough to make a difference but I damn well hope we don't give up trying.

:clap::clap:

 

[TisHerself]

It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

I agree not all sociopaths are killers, and yes they can be very charming and likeable, unless you know them personally such as a family member.
They have to mask themselves, because they have no consceince, no emotions like normal people so what they do is act as if.
In essence like you say they have their whole lives to practice, they have to copy how others behave because they have no innner barometer to tell them how.
The jury is out on whether or not they are born that way, some phycologists believe they are some do not.

Look at CA in her "have checks will shop videos", forget about the fact she seems so cold about Caylee. Those videos speak volumes to the fact she is a true blue sociopath, ( she has probably just killed her daughter and dumped her someplace, and this is her shopping next day). She is so unconcerned, looking at them I got the feeling that now she was feeling free, she had gotten rid of her burden.
Now, she can really get on with her life, just the fact that she really gives the impression that she is going to get away with this shows you that she has no idea that in the real world people are going to start asking questions.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Quote: It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

It is clear to me. I don't think I want to believe in "demon seeds" or "psycho genes" anyway, what a fatalistic and dismal prospect...

Quote: I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

KC is textbook NPD, people w this disorder (narcissistic) are charismatic and cunning manipulators because exploiting people, and their narcissistic supply, depend upon it. But I'm very interested in your remarks re most killers not being sociopaths. I take this to mean that, whereas the sociopath lacks empathy or feelings, most killers simply kill out of uncontrolled rage? The pathological narcissists, (and also the sociopath I suspect I may have known) have a clear identifiable history, that anyone could recognize, to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I posted these thoughts on homicide thread but they really may belong more here... My general interpretation of the law is that (simply put) it is attempting to distinguish "legitimate" defects of the mind from those of the heart so to speak; and in turn seek retribution based on which of these is found present. There may be both in some instances, or none in others. But the legal insanity standard seeks in theory to establish (and to therefore protect those with) the presence of solely a mental one, sufficient to prevent comprehension at the time that their criminal actions are wrong. So in my very inexpert opinion then it would seem that those people with personality disorders have more (simply put) a "heart" defect if you will ("If I only had a heart...") albeit learned behavior as OneLostGirl once said. Which certainly isn't to say there's no underlying pathology, or a traceable cause, but no legally exhonerating ones. At the risk of repetition after CA had been in collusion with KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--threatening to hold KC accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC is right then when she tells Lee, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." But this statement of KC's reveals both a weakness of conscience, and consciousness of guilt--and therefore a heart, as opposed to mental defect. Beyond which the law as I see it is essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become. JMHO

IF I ONLY HAD A HEART
When a man's an empty kettle he should be on his mettle,
And yet I'm torn apart.
Just because I'm presumin' that I could be kind-a-human,
If I only had heart.
I'd be tender - I'd be gentle and awful sentimental
Regarding Love and Art.
I'd be friends with the sparrows ...
and the boys who shoots the arrows
If I only had a heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5RxCExyLeU

*passing the blunt*

 

[OneLostGrl]

Quote: So let's say the reason she did this is because she's a sociopath (just throwing it out there, I have no idea if that's what she is or not), and those seeds were planted in her over time beginning when she was very young. Or it's a "perfect storm" of many events in her life that led her to this. What would you think would be, as you say, an effective prevention to that? I'm truly curious, because I can't think of what that would be. I just think sometimes people do things out of a purely selfish motivation, that's all. There doesn't always have to be a personality or mental "diagnosis" of some sort.

You're right there is nothing that can be done now to bring Caylee back nor really to reverse the damage that one disturbed, narcisstic young woman has already inflicted upon so many. But thank God for all of those psychiatrists, clergyman, educators and laypeople etc who do seek to understand the causes of antisocial personality or the making of a sociopath. The only way I can see to overcome that evil in the FUTURE is by hopefully educating parents as well as those in the counseling and therapy community toward a greater awareness of child and personality development. Sociopaths aren't born. And you can't do battle with a hidden "enemy." JMHO

Absolutely! Great post!

 

[OneLostGrl]

It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

My step father was diagnosed ASPD. I do realize that most psycho/sociopaths never kill and blend in with the world.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Quote: It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

It is clear to me. I don't think I want to believe in "demon seeds" or "psycho genes" anyway, what a fatalistic and dismal prospect...

Quote: I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

KC is textbook NPD, people w this disorder (narcissistic) are charismatic and cunning manipulators because exploiting people, and their narcissistic supply, depend upon it. But I'm very interested in your remarks re most killers not being sociopaths. I take this to mean that, whereas the sociopath lacks empathy or feelings, most killers simply kill out of uncontrolled rage? The pathological narcissists, (and also the sociopath I suspect I may have known) have a clear identifiable history, that anyone could recognize, to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed.

I agree with what I have bolded!!

 

[JohnVaughanCauthen]

I haven't followed the threads because I was banned, then today I found out I wasn't.

I think I have some very important things to contribute.

You talked on the previous page about the videos of Casey at Target and at the bank. I saw them this afternoon, before I came here and learned I was not banned. They were very revealing to me.

My father is super conventional. When I left home in 1983... First some background: I never could make a living, so my father had me committed to a mental hospital, which lasted for three months. The doctors told him, and my mother there was nothing wrong with me, that I am very smart, but because I thought so differently from other people (not wrong, just different) I would never be able to support myself in a regular job, and all that my father could do was give me a free apartment and enough to live on.

Then, when I was free I was able to develop a different way of living from my father. I began to enjoy everything, living life in a continual state of praise, writing checks, going to the store: everything was beautiful and good. When I saw those surveillance videos of Casey, I saw that she was just like me.

I have to say here that when I was on my own and free, over the 5 years from 1983 to 1988 I developed a tennis racquet weighting that I showed to Wilson in Chicago. They used it and it became the #1 selling racquet in the world.

That would seem like a happy ending for me, but it wasn&#8217;t. Big companies don&#8217;t pay you for ideas when you just walk in off the street with them. Wilson never paid me or acknowledged that I did it. Neither did my father acknowledge what I did. That is what the doctors meant when they told him I would never be able to make a living in a regular job. My level of perception didn&#8217;t mesh with anyone. I was always crazy because of my ideas, and then if my ideas worked, people would say that couldn&#8217;t have happened.

I began to share this thought with God: &#8220;My thoughts are not your thoughts.&#8221; And this verse, &#8220;You can go into the city (get a job and function normally with the people there) at any time, but they reject me.&#8221;

So back when I was finally free in 1983, and it is still the same today as I am being mysteriously, almost supernaturally supported: the Bible says, Don&#8217;t worry about what you will eat or wear. God feeds the sparrows, and clothes the lilies of the field more gloriously than Solomon. With all of that as background, I live in this state of abject praise and wonderment. Going to the grocery store or the bank is a sensuous experience, and I have never seen that in another person, until I saw those videos of Casey.

It is rare for anyone, while writing checks, when no one is watching, to be working it that much. She is being a girl: a supergirl.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Hearing that sociopaths (or even psychopaths) walk among us--and never commit murder or other acts of violence--isn't surprising to me. I guess what's more surprising to me is to hear that murder is more often committed by people who are not suffering from any such disorder. What's their excuse? J/K. Jealous rage, crime of passion etc I get. But aren't our prisons filled with people who kill for money? So isn't that sort of calculated, premeditated crime going to always be committed by a sociopath or psychopath? Really don't wanna find out Caylee was killed intentionally. Still holding out hope this was a negligence scenario with a really lame cover-up. JMO

 

[JohnVaughanCauthen]

You put that poem out like Casey wrote it. It wouldn't be her.

 

[TisHerself]

I'm not a troll. What I just said was I personally understand why Casey acts like she does, even when no one is watching.

Unless you are sociopathic you can never understand why Casey does what she does, That's the reason why they are sociopathic they are unable to think like normal people.

 

[JohnVaughanCauthen]

I explained in my post that I am sociopathic, for 25 years, by the defintion of sociopathic. I even get disability for it, so it's official.

Therefore, maybe I can shine some light on Casey. What knocked me over was how much she acted like I do, on the video when buying stuff, and at the bank.

People think she may be sociopathic. They will ascribe horrible things to her, but what if Caylee is not even dead?

If LE could have arrested her for murder, they would have. So they haven't had Caylee's DNA, even though the decomposition odor was strong in the car. They need the DNA to arrest Casey for murder.

How could they have that much decomposition odor and not have any DNA? That doesn't make sense.

Without DNA evidence for murder (otherwise they would have arrested her), they are trying to convict Casey of a certain kind of attitude, an attitude I am very familiar with, and I know how easy it is to be misunderstood.

Sometimes, what they call sociopath is not even bad. It can be extra good.

 

[softsoul]

It should be stressed that not all sociopaths kill. There are more killers that are not socipaths. Simply because there are not that many sociopaths. Being a sociopath is a personality disorder. I'm sure many people on this board have run into them (many enocounter them at work). It is still not clear if a person is born that way or raised that way.

I'm sure we will learn more about Casey's profile perhaps in the trial...or perhaps not. Her behavior (like Scott Peterson) certainly is very much like a sociopath. Be as it may, many soicopaths can be quite charming and likable. They mask themselves very well. They had their entire lives to practice.

I recently read a report that estimated about 10% of adults in the US are sociopaths. I'll try to remember where I read that and provide a link. That is one scary stat.

On a personal level I have known a couple of people I believed to be sociopaths. One guy was literately the most charming person I have ever met. He seemed to be very intelligent and certainly had the gift of gab. However, after being around him for any length of time you started to become aware of how shallow he was...in almost every way possible. He knew "a little about a lot" but could not really engage in any deep conversation on any topic. His knowledge, like his charm, was entirely superficial. One day he was just gone. We later learned he would go into people's office while they were in session or in a meeting, take their ATM or credit card, go make withdrawals or purchases and return the card before the person came back to their office. When a large sum of money came up missing from the accounting dept. they were going to give everyone lie detector tests and he left town. At first I thought I was one of the lucky ones who didn't fall victim to him. However, one night I sat straight up in bed as I recalled a time about a year earlier when I noticed a withdrawal I didn't recall making. Of course I thought my husband must have done it and forgot to tell me but he insisted it wasn't him. I then just assumed I must have done it and just forgot...I'm not the most organized person but that would have been out of character. I was totally floored when I found out about this guy...I liked him and would not have thought anything about entering my PIN with him standing next to me. I felt so vulnerable...how could I have trusted him??

The sociopath is a very scary person because they can appear so different than they actually are.

 

[magic-cat]

Quoting Leonard P on Scared Monkeys radio tonight:

"That girl is nuts! She is in lala land!"

I would say that sums it up in a nutshell...