Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[logicalgirl]

RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

Oh I disagree in a huge way with your statement about Cindy! Holy mackeral - that woman intensely feels shame for so many things but especially ICA. Why do you think she is controlling, angry and constantly lashing out? She feels so much shame in all her failures it has made her probably permanently unbalanced.

Shame her marriage is a failure, shame she hasn't been able to hold her family together, shame ICA is such a mess, ditto Lee - and can you imagine for a split second the shame and horror she must feel that her daughter has murdered her beloved grand daughter? To me watching her and listening her, as much as I dislike her and what she has done and will probably continue to do - all I feel and see are waves of shame coming off of her.

All this is IMO - But I've always thought that about her. Maybe after years of psychiatric help she may be salvageable, unlike ICA, who as a sociopath, or psychopath, can't be helped at all.

 

[ynotdivein]

Oh I disagree in a huge way with your statement about Cindy! Holy mackeral - that woman intensely feels shame for so many things but especially ICA. Why do you think she is controlling, angry and constantly lashing out? She feels so much shame in all her failures it has made her probably permanently unbalanced.

Shame her marriage is a failure, shame she hasn't been able to hold her family together, shame ICA is such a mess, ditto Lee - and can you imagine for a split second the shame and horror she must feel that her daughter has murdered her beloved grand daughter? To me watching her and listening her, as much as I dislike her and what she has done and will probably continue to do - all I feel and see are waves of shame coming off of her.

All this is IMO - But I've always thought that about her. Maybe after years of psychiatric help she may be salvageable, unlike ICA, who as a sociopath, or psychopath, can't be helped at all.

Ah, good points all. Can we start by agreeing that shame is at least a major factor here? I totally agree with your outline above about how shame has played a significant role in Cindy's life. And yet she denies it, does all she can to bury it.

I think George actively engages with and understands shame.

You make good points that Cindy understands shame and that she has done nothing but battle against every little thing that might force her to confront shame. (Bringing your 7-months'-pregnant-unwed-daughter to a family function and DENYING the pregnancy all the way???? You're right--Cindy does know shame and she fears it 100%).

KC, I don't think has any but the slightest connection to what shame actually is, does, or feels like. Which IMO may have a lot to say about her sociopathy/personality disorder.

 

[logicalgirl]

Ah, good points all. Can we start by agreeing that shame is at least a major factor here? I totally agree with your outline above about how shame has played a significant role in Cindy's life. And yet she denies it, does all she can to bury it.

I think George actively engages with and understands shame.

You make good points that Cindy understands shame and that she has done nothing but battle against every little thing that might force her to confront shame. (Bringing your 7-months'-pregnant-unwed-daughter to a family function and DENYING the pregnancy all the way???? You're right--Cindy does know shame and she fears it 100%).

KC, I don't think has any but the slightest connection to what shame actually is, does, or feels like. Which IMO may have a lot to say about her sociopathy/personality disorder.

Thanks for your consideration and comments ynotdivein - I was almost afraid to come back to the thread after saying something so contrary to what most folks suggest.

Again, don't anyone take my comments as condoning anything she does, but I watch/listen to her and think - does she really think we all can't see her shame and how angry it makes her.

My family or what I have left of it is shame based - (some of it for very good reason) and I get that instant recognition. I had to do a lot of "work" to get over it and found it's now a good sign to me to reassess my behavior when I get flashes of it. Usually means I am fighting my way upstream when I actually should be heading down if you know what I mean.

Did I mention excluding my children whose pendulum seems to swing too far the other way - whole lotta self love there - sometimes too much!

 

[ynotdivein]

Thanks for your consideration and comments ynotdivein - I was almost afraid to come back to the thread after saying something so contrary to what most folks suggest.

Again, don't anyone take my comments as condoning anything she does, but I watch/listen to her and think - does she really think we all can't see her shame and how angry it makes her.

My family or what I have left of it is shame based - (some of it for very good reason) and I get that instant recognition. I had to do a lot of "work" to get over it and found it's now a good sign to me to reassess my behavior when I get flashes of it. Usually means I am fighting my way upstream when I actually should be heading down if you know what I mean.

Did I mention excluding my children whose pendulum seems to swing too far the other way - whole lotta self love there - sometimes too much!

LG, I always appreciate a good bout of respectful intellectual speculation! Your perceptions of Cindy (and I am sad that you have such personal experience with her type and glad that you are moving up and beyond that) are important and you provided me a good check on my assumptions. :hug:

 

[logicalgirl]

LG, I always appreciate a good bout of respectful intellectual speculation! Your perceptions of Cindy (and I am sad that you have such personal experience with her type and glad that you are moving up and beyond that) are important and you provided me a good check on my assumptions. :hug:

You and your open attitude are one of the reasons I love websleuths.:blowkiss:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think they found it no different because it was DEAD. These Doctors who study psychopaths, or sociopaths which is just another name, are talking about brain waves and different areas used or reactions monitored that light up different areas of the brain, not the actual brain cells.

Oh yes, you're right. I've seen that about brain studies where red signals that a person needs alot of risk taking, etc. Or they can tell if the frontal lobe is activated when making a decision, etc. It's not like they find big portians of brain missing. Sometimes they do find an actual tumor in a person's brain which could explain some of their actions but that would more likely be actions that came on suddenly.

The program I watched ended by telling us that JD's brain was found to be 'normal'. Why didn't his mother insist they test his brain when he was alive - ugh!
Things are never simple.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

RBBM

You have made a small lightbulb go off over my head.

George may or may not feel "guilt" over allowing Casey to carry on as he did. But IMO he does feel SHAME for his complicity. And to me, this is the difference. IMO neither Casey nor her mother have any capacity to feel shame.

Maybe "capacity to feel" shame is the wrong wording... maybe they understand it conceptually, as in using shame to manipulate a person into doing/not doing what they wish. But (again IMO) they themselves have ZERO sense of shame.

Sense of guilt is not the same as sense of shame. Awareness of guilt without perception of shame = blithe lies and mistruths. Does that make sense?
:waitasec:

I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

I think if someone started when you were a child and told you weren't like other kids, didn't behave as well, didn't get the best marks, weren't tidy enough, or something about not achieving a goal someone else has held out as good, or the way to "be", and then you learn to recognize what is "good" or considered "the way to be" as an adult and fall short of those goals, the feelings of unworthiness or not as good or valuable as others is the same as shame.
When you see children making fun of other kids for riding an old bike, when they have new ones, that child is probably feeling shame. When you see an adult set themselves to be a certain approved way in society, such as "in a happy marriage" or climbing the corporate ladder, or "living the good life" and they fail to achieve those "pre-set", expected by their peers, goals, the feeling they have that is associated with failing is shame, or not "good enough". Shame = failure without wrong doing.

I think guilt - is the feeling the majority of us get when we knowingly do something we know is wrong. I think some people don't feel guilt until they get caught at their wrong doing. And sometimes when they are caught- they feel shame.

All IMO of course. I've tried not to use clinical terms or buzz words.

 

[LambChop]

I think the A's suffer from misplaced anger they are unable to manage so it manages them. jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

I think the A's suffer from misplaced anger they are unable to manage so it manages them. jmo

I agree - I think their anger is shame based and it will never be resolved without self acceptance and looking at themselves with wide open eyes. If we never admit mistakes we get layer upon layer of anger, and as you say, it manages them.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think if someone started when you were a child and told you weren't like other kids, didn't behave as well, didn't get the best marks, weren't tidy enough, or something about not achieving a goal someone else has held out as good, or the way to "be", and then you learn to recognize what is "good" or considered "the way to be" as an adult and fall short of those goals, the feelings of unworthiness or not as good or valuable as others is the same as shame.
When you see children making fun of other kids for riding an old bike, when they have new ones, that child is probably feeling shame. When you see an adult set themselves to be a certain approved way in society, such as "in a happy marriage" or climbing the corporate ladder, or "living the good life" and they fail to achieve those "pre-set", expected by their peers, goals, the feeling they have that is associated with failing is shame, or not "good enough". Shame = failure without wrong doing.

I think guilt - is the feeling the majority of us get when we knowingly do something we know is wrong. I think some people don't feel guilt until they get caught at their wrong doing. And sometimes when they are caught- they feel shame.

All IMO of course. I've tried not to use clinical terms or buzz words.

I definitely hear what you're saying. It would take a very centered, strong child to recognize that the shame belonged to the other children. They are the ones who, when they grow up, should feel ashamed of themselves.

Come to think of it, my mom didn't have a father from the time she was two. She was born in the 30's. She told me that she was ashamed and made up stories that her father was a high ranking officer in the war in order to cover for him not being around. She felt shame - no fault of her own but still she felt shame because of her circumstance (something must be wrong with me because my father is not here). One of her lasting weaknesses is that she always thinks other people have it better as far as their own capabilities go. So and so appears perfect therefore they must be. As I've grown, I've told her over and over again "Mom, everyone has problems of one kind or another". She'll say with surprise in her voice, so and so is pregnant and not married as if it could never happen to them because in her mind they are perfect. I can't really explain it clearly but it's almost like she thinks more highly of other people. She's in her seventies and finally can say to me, so and so's daughter is getting a divorce, I guess all people have struggles. Duh! It's like she had to overcome some inner sadness/inadequacy or something.

Then, not long ago, I found that her bio was buried out in CA in a Veteran's cemetary. Veteran? Although not high ranking as in Officer, he obviously served in the military. I called my mom and said, "Mom, I guess you were telling the truth to some degree when you told your friends that your dad was not around because he was in the war. Ha! But, yes, she felt shame over what he did (abandoned her). But I'm ashamed of him. Who was this masked man who could leave his baby with her mother to fend for themselves? Shame on him. Children are prone to internalizing the weaknesses of their parents. I've had to work on my own confidence because of this, it kind of trickles down.

 

[ynotdivein]

I'm trying to figure out the difference between shame and guilt.

shame ~ 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings strong regret, censure, or reproach b : a cause of feeling shame

ignominy ~ 1 : deep personal humiliation and disgrace 2 : disgraceful or dishonorable conduct, quality, or action syn see DISGRACE

guilt ~ 1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct 2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense esp. consciously b : feelings of culpability esp. for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH 3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses

SYN for guilty is BLAMEWORTHY

guiltless : INNOCENT

CULPABLE is weaker than guilty and is likely to connote malfeasance or errors of ignorance, omission, or negligence.

malfeasance ~ wrongdoing or misconduct esp. by a public official

maleficence ~ the act of committing evil - a harmful or evil act.

----------------

If I'm guilty than I should/might feel shame. If I'm not guilty I should not feel shame. Therefore, if GA feels shame does that not mean he feels guilty of something? If GA is guilty he may or may not feel shame.

I believe GA is guilty of something and therefore he may feel shame.

Of course GA may be ashamed of himself for not being a more attentive father, ignoring the obvious, etc. He may be guilty of those things.

It's really hard to say what another person feels - ya know?
I think the A's should feel shame but I'm not sure any of them do. They may feel guilty though because they are imo (of contributing to obvious troublesome behaviors of their daughter).

Line above RBBM

Woe, thank you for putting these definitions out here. You've gone further in extending my own understanding of what seems to be going on here. I'm glad you added "ignominy" to the list too--I think the entire Anthony clan is experiencing ignominy right now. (Ignominy--etymologically linked to being unknown, an outcast; the force of the word is that others' views of one are the primary engine behind the word's meaning.) Ignominy carries a sense that others are placing that ignominy upon one, no matter whether or how deserved it is.

Shame, as your example details above, is caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety. I bolded "shortcoming" because I can see GA's utterances as showing shame due to his own internalized consciousness or perception of shortcoming. As a husband, a father, a man, a human being.

I believe that in Cindy we see a person immersed in guilt (not that she murdered Caylee but that she feels she should have protected her better) and who is allergic to even the suggestion of shame or ignominy coming upon her family. She is therefore sublimating the consciousness of her own and her family's shortcomings in deeply sick ways. Cindy may feel shame but is so terrified of it that she will do absolutely anything to deny it. She has the consciousness to be aware of shame but is burying it behind a bright wall of media spin. Internally, she is dying. (MOO)

IMO Casey herself is incapable of consciously feeling guilt, as in her mind whatever she did was done for the best of all possible reasons (i.e., to make KC's life better). As for shame, if we go with the dictionary definition, it means "a consciousness of guilt shortcoming or inadequacy" and I haven't seen much to tell me KC has any capacity to consciously feel guilt, shortcoming, or inadequacy.

MOO MOO MOO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Tracy's account of her time spent with KC really brought the fact to light that KC didn't outwardly demonstrate any feelings of sadness, guilt or shame for whatever has happened to Caylee.

KC seems to be on some other wave length altogether. As a matter of fact, Lee does too.

So the word ignominy encompasses what Logic describes in her post above and the outside forces (imagined or real) influencing peoples' definitions of themselves? That's a new word for me.

To be continued ... not sure if I'm making any sense as I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard!

 

[ynotdivein]

Tracy's account of her time spent with KC really brought the fact to light that KC didn't outwardly demonstrate any feelings of sadness, guilt or shame for whatever has happened to Caylee.

KC seems to be on some other wave length altogether. As a matter of fact, Lee does too.

So the word ignominy encompasses what Logic describes in her post above and the outside forces (imagined or real) influencing peoples' definitions of themselves? That's a new word for me.

To be continued ... not sure if I'm making any sense as I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard!

Darling! If you must fall asleep upon the keyboard, at least put a pillow down. If we get a Woe post that says "xvxcvhjxuoiha;fo;ea;ruj;edlkjda;mnvvjdakhuj.sdkfjkdafs.jkjkdsafjkjkdfsjkisauoddioua" we will understand.

IMO "ignominy" is how you would describe another or another's situation. Roger Clemens is dealing with ignominy right now for taking steroids and lying about it. Other people view him with ignominy. I don't think that Roger Clemens feels ignominy about this. Ignominy is what is happening to him, externally. Does Roger Clemens feel guilt for taking steroids and/or lying about it? He might. If he really did those things and if he has a conscience he might feel guilty. Does he feel shame? The sense of fingers pointing at him?

Maybe shame is the awareness of ignominy?

 

[wildchild1961]

I agree - I think their anger is shame based and it will never be resolved without self acceptance and looking at themselves with wide open eyes. If we never admit mistakes we get layer upon layer of anger, and as you say, it manages them.

I have been reading these particular posts with great interest. I love reading new ideas and discovering the "other side", things that make me go.. oooooooooooh.. and shakes me out of my comfort zone and gets me thinking. So I have been thinking about shame and its ramifications.

On one hand... I completely 100% agree that anger drives Cindy. It controls her and has for a very long time. However, I am having a lot of problem with "shame" being the root cause. To me.. shame is something that happens when you feel guilt. I have never once.. seen Cindy allow herself to feel guilt, even when she lies and knows she is caught in one red-handed. She is WAY too righteous when she is angry and when you feel righteous.. you do NOT feel you are the slightest bit in the wrong. So why would you feel guilty? Not in any way, shape or form. In fact.. you feel you have every right in the world.. to feel.. well.. "righteous". Cindy feels RIGHTEOUS. When she gets angry.. it's apparent in every word she speaks, every gesture she makes and every single muscle/bone in her body. It literally EXUDES from her pores and righteous folk.. never feel guilty. EVER. Hence.. I just cannot see how shame plays into this that much. Shame comes AFTER the act.. not before it. That righteous anger.. reassures her that she need never feel guilty.

What I do see playing a HUGE role in Cindy's anger over the years.. is how she has learned to cope with embarrassment. George's "failures" as a provider and husband. George gambling HER hard earned money away. Casey getting pregnant. Casey stealing money. Casey telling lies. Her home always having to be cleaner/better than anyone else's, Caylee's care was always THE BEST (out of Cindy's own mouth). Casey has to be Mother of the Year. Casey's inadequacies as a daughter.. and even Cindy's own issues of allowing them all to continue to parasitically feed of her. But yet it was all dealt with IN HOUSE.. because there would be hell to pay if anyone outside of the home knew. Cindy never felt guilty about these acts.. Cindy would be embarrassed if others found out. Shame is about how you internalize situations. Cindy doesn't internalize.. not from what we have seen at least. From what we see peeking on on the windows of their lives.. Cindy has spent a lifetime tamping down that guilt and making sure it was everyone else's fault.

let me toss out a different word.

"Embarrassment
A state of being embarrassed; perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"

Watch the old videos folks.. and see when Cindy goes the most ballistic and evil in her attacks on folks. It's when she gets EMBARRASSED. She gets embarrassed when answering questions about Casey. Cindy can't defend Casey's actions because she hasn't even been given enough respect from Casey to have been TOLD all that has happened so the embarrassment kicks in because of...(perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"). To try and cover Casey's worthless behind.. Cindy makes the most pathetic and dishonest statements around and looks like a complete fool by spouting that stuff.. so after she makes those statements.. and is questioned again about how stupid they sound.. watch her get embarrassed and then go straight to a vicious attack because once again... "perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness" comes right back into play. That is NOT shame.. she is waaaaaay too busy ranting and raving to internalize guilt.

IMO.. this reaction to being embarrassed started with Cindy when she was a very young girl. Virulent anger is a release of the immature when they are feeling helpless and EMBARRASSED. Watch a teenager shoot something perfectly wicked and evil outa their mouths when they get mad because you caught them in the middle of a huge ole whopper. It's embarrassment. Shame comes LATER.. AFTER you have cooled down (not before) and understand how badly you have acted or hurt someone. Cindy never has allowed herself to reach that point in any interview or video I have seen, Not once.. ever.

Cindy is either all soft and sweet.. or full of rage and righteousness. I honestly have never seen any trace of shame. If someone could point me to a video where she demonstrates it.. I will happily eat my words.

It's not shame that I see coming off her in those videos. It's poison .. spewing out of her from all the "wrongs" she has been handed in life.

as always.. just my two cents..

and thank you all for some really thought provoking posts

wild

 

[logicalgirl]

Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

 

[essies]

Why do people feel embarrassment? What is the root cause?

Shame.

Why do people feel guilt? Same answer.

Yes, I agree, Cindy does feel righteous - then moves to anger.

But my question is - what is the feeling she has in order to feel righteous?
Righteous is the end result of a series of mental decisions, that move her forward to anger. To feel wronged and spew poison comes from what? What is the root cause?

BBM
IMO the root cause goes back to Cindy's roots in Ohio. Unless we get more insight from her brother Rick-we'll probably never figure it out!!:waitasec:

 

[LambChop]

Maybe it is something as simple as being stuck in a bad marriage. Feeling that you can't get out but the least you can do is present yourself to the outside world as having the perfect life, don't let anyone know the truth by closing yourself off and keeping family business to yourselves. One by one each one of the family members starts to disappoint you for minor or major reasons. You wake up one morning to find your whole life just went down the drain and you start scratching at the drain to keep from losing all of it. I would say years of disappointment, one right after another and never, ever admitting there is a problem or facing that problem to find a resolution. No one to blame but yourself. If you're not part of the solution, you are certainly part of the problem. This is CA today. jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

Maybe it is something as simple as being stuck in a bad marriage. Feeling that you can't get out but the least you can do is present yourself to the outside world as having the perfect life, don't let anyone know the truth by closing yourself off and keeping family business to yourselves. One by one each one of the family members starts to disappoint you for minor or major reasons. You wake up one morning to find your whole life just went down the drain and you start scratching at the drain to keep from losing all of it. I would say years of disappointment, one right after another and never, ever admitting there is a problem or facing that problem to find a resolution. No one to blame but yourself. If you're not part of the solution, you are certainly part of the problem. This is CA today. jmo

Exactly! Again, I have no patience with how she presents herself to the world as a result of her own failures and how she feels about the failures in her life, but I believe you've put it in a nutshell.

 

[logicalgirl]

I have been reading these particular posts with great interest. I love reading new ideas and discovering the "other side", things that make me go.. oooooooooooh.. and shakes me out of my comfort zone and gets me thinking. So I have been thinking about shame and its ramifications.

On one hand... I completely 100% agree that anger drives Cindy. It controls her and has for a very long time. However, I am having a lot of problem with "shame" being the root cause. To me.. shame is something that happens when you feel guilt. I have never once.. seen Cindy allow herself to feel guilt, even when she lies and knows she is caught in one red-handed. She is WAY too righteous when she is angry and when you feel righteous.. you do NOT feel you are the slightest bit in the wrong. So why would you feel guilty? Not in any way, shape or form. In fact.. you feel you have every right in the world.. to feel.. well.. "righteous". Cindy feels RIGHTEOUS. When she gets angry.. it's apparent in every word she speaks, every gesture she makes and every single muscle/bone in her body. It literally EXUDES from her pores and righteous folk.. never feel guilty. EVER. Hence.. I just cannot see how shame plays into this that much. Shame comes AFTER the act.. not before it. That righteous anger.. reassures her that she need never feel guilty.

What I do see playing a HUGE role in Cindy's anger over the years.. is how she has learned to cope with embarrassment. George's "failures" as a provider and husband. George gambling HER hard earned money away. Casey getting pregnant. Casey stealing money. Casey telling lies. Her home always having to be cleaner/better than anyone else's, Caylee's care was always THE BEST (out of Cindy's own mouth). Casey has to be Mother of the Year. Casey's inadequacies as a daughter.. and even Cindy's own issues of allowing them all to continue to parasitically feed of her. But yet it was all dealt with IN HOUSE.. because there would be hell to pay if anyone outside of the home knew. Cindy never felt guilty about these acts.. Cindy would be embarrassed if others found out. Shame is about how you internalize situations. Cindy doesn't internalize.. not from what we have seen at least. From what we see peeking on on the windows of their lives.. Cindy has spent a lifetime tamping down that guilt and making sure it was everyone else's fault.

let me toss out a different word.

"Embarrassment
A state of being embarrassed; perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"

Watch the old videos folks.. and see when Cindy goes the most ballistic and evil in her attacks on folks. It's when she gets EMBARRASSED. She gets embarrassed when answering questions about Casey. Cindy can't defend Casey's actions because she hasn't even been given enough respect from Casey to have been TOLD all that has happened so the embarrassment kicks in because of...(perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness"). To try and cover Casey's worthless behind.. Cindy makes the most pathetic and dishonest statements around and looks like a complete fool by spouting that stuff.. so after she makes those statements.. and is questioned again about how stupid they sound.. watch her get embarrassed and then go straight to a vicious attack because once again... "perplexity; impediment to freedom of action; entanglement; hindrance; confusion or discomposure of mind, as from not knowing what to do or to say; disconcertedness" comes right back into play. That is NOT shame.. she is waaaaaay too busy ranting and raving to internalize guilt.

IMO.. this reaction to being embarrassed started with Cindy when she was a very young girl. Virulent anger is a release of the immature when they are feeling helpless and EMBARRASSED. Watch a teenager shoot something perfectly wicked and evil outa their mouths when they get mad because you caught them in the middle of a huge ole whopper. It's embarrassment. Shame comes LATER.. AFTER you have cooled down (not before) and understand how badly you have acted or hurt someone. Cindy never has allowed herself to reach that point in any interview or video I have seen, Not once.. ever.

Cindy is either all soft and sweet.. or full of rage and righteousness. I honestly have never seen any trace of shame. If someone could point me to a video where she demonstrates it.. I will happily eat my words.

It's not shame that I see coming off her in those videos. It's poison .. spewing out of her from all the "wrongs" she has been handed in life.

as always.. just my two cents..

and thank you all for some really thought provoking posts

wild

It is interesting to discuss isn't it Wild, as long as we can stay objective and not get caught in our own feelings about Cindy's end behavior. And mine are :banghead::furious:

I do believe before one feels guilt one must feel shame or else what are you feeling guilty about? Something has caused the feeling of guilt but I don't believe guilt is a core feeling. If we start at love, then move up to the next level, which is hate, and the levels after that.