Casey & Family Psychological Profile #10

[OneLostGrl]

Sure it wasn't "quick cash" George who had the idea of going for the bigger pay cheque when it was obvious he wasn't going any where up in the force? IMO you give Cindy way too much credit. She's the safe stick to it stable job person by her actions. Not a risk taker.

But if George quit his job (without her permission) and left them high and dry she'd let everyone know it and hold it over his head for the rest of his life. and I don't give Cindy ANY credit... for anything.. other than destroying her entire family.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm just not seeing Bipolar in Cindy.

I'm not sure if I'd recognize Bipolar or not but CA seems to me to be a person in denial and very defensive about any aspect of her life. What illness goes along with 'my way or the highway' type of thinking and a bully like response trigger when faced with anything she doesn't want/like?*

Are bipolars usually stable in their jobs?

*passive/aggressive behavior, what does that usually go along with?

 

[OneLostGrl]

I'm not sure if I'd recognize Bipolar or not but CA seems to me to be a person in denial and very defensive about any aspect of her life. What illness goes along with 'my way or the highway' type of thinking and a bully like response trigger when faced with anything she doesn't want/like?*

Are bipolars usually stable in their jobs?

*passive/aggressive behavior, what does that usually go along with?

Bold is mine-

Personality disorders

And no, unless treated , typically those with Bipolar have a difficult time holding down a job. Bipolar depression can be crippling and mania's often make us irresponsible so we tend to miss a lot of time. A survey by DBSA (http://www.dbsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Employment_Information) found 88% of those they polled said their bipolar affected their ability to perform their job duties. 65% said they change jobs more often than other people .. and 58% said they quit working outside the home at all.

passive agressive= Personality disorder



Pattern of Control Through Generosity

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2k73P6vWEg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2k73P6vWEg[/ame]

 

[Just Jayla]

I went back and listened to some more audio this week and am thinking through KC's psyche again. Probably coming to the same conclusions that many of you have come to already, but as we get further out from July 2008, the picture is actually getting a little more clear on who this murderess is:

-KC tells Rob Dick to get dirt on Kio-Venomous towards Kio...hmmm-Is that because Kio was talking about the area where Caylee was left, and hitting too close to home/giving KC away? At any rate, Kio is one of the first to have told us that KC had mental problems, was a liar, etc...
-Michelle Murphy tells us that KC recognized her poor mental state-Moments of lucidity...
-Annie told us the same, that KC fessed to being a mental case.
-JG says something in his September interview that I had glossed over until this last listen-That KC was mentally ill, known to lie. His dad, RG, states that they'd always known KC was weird, but that now (that she had "lost" Caylee), her tendencies must have lead her to trouble-she had it in her to find trouble based on the behavior RG had observed.

This is quite a few people that have told us that they knew KC was either ill or bizarre or just a liar, and there are a few more people that will say the same, but these 5 indicated that KC either admitted it or manifested it in very pointed ways.
This leads me to believe the people closest to her know she has issues that may be greater and more extensive than we know, than her friends knew...but maybe someone in Ohio knows?
How do issues like hers lead to murder? To telling people your brother and father are molesters or possible rapists? These are malevolent lies, stealing from people is very malevolent, a lot of anger...
Now to the Anthony's-They HAVE TO know that KC is capable of nasty things and that these things are typically associated with some level of mental defect. We are not all capable of such things. CA, the liar that she is, does not seem capable of some of the things KC has done, so I don't jump to the conclusion that it is CA's influence entirely. There are definately, as her friends have noted, moments where KC's mind blends the line between normal and sick.
Want to know more about this, but I think the only people that know for sure when this behavior started, the signs of the behavior earlier in KC's life and the extent of her "antics", are the nuclear Anthony family, and they ain't talkin.
(NOW-Just because I am laying out that KC is not always lucid does not mean she does not fully understand what she has done and that she faces the DP, so she will continue this lie whereas in the past she has confessed or felt she needed to commit herself to clear the swirlies in her head. She did this murder on purpose, my point is that the manic moments KC had that caused her to do evil things were what sets her apart from those of us incapable of such things.)

 

[logicalgirl]

There is a list of the meds they found in the A's medicine cabinet somewhere in Discovery. I guess because they considered that Caylee could have gotten hold of pills on her own or to see what they may have been giving her. I don't recall seeing lithium on the list but that doesn't mean she's not taking it now.

Yes, Woe, I absolutely meant after the Zenaida testifying when CA would have been able to see her bizarre behavior for herself in every news story on TV for at least a couple of weeks. She was clearly way out of bounds of any self discipline the average person would display. I believe it was shortly after than she got some appropriate medication because just after that timeline was when her truly bizarre behavior came to an end.

 

[logicalgirl]

I went back and listened to some more audio this week and am thinking through KC's psyche again. Probably coming to the same conclusions that many of you have come to already, but as we get further out from July 2008, the picture is actually getting a little more clear on who this murderess is:

-KC tells Rob Dick to get dirt on Kio-Venomous towards Kio...hmmm-Is that because Kio was talking about the area where Caylee was left, and hitting too close to home/giving KC away? At any rate, Kio is one of the first to have told us that KC had mental problems, was a liar, etc...
-Michelle Murphy tells us that KC recognized her poor mental state-Moments of lucidity...
-Annie told us the same, that KC fessed to being a mental case.
-JG says something in his September interview that I had glossed over until this last listen-That KC was mentally ill, known to lie. His dad, RG, states that they'd always known KC was weird, but that now (that she had "lost" Caylee), her tendencies must have lead her to trouble-she had it in her to find trouble based on the behavior RG had observed.

This is quite a few people that have told us that they knew KC was either ill or bizarre or just a liar, and there are a few more people that will say the same, but these 5 indicated that KC either admitted it or manifested it in very pointed ways.
This leads me to believe the people closest to her know she has issues that may be greater and more extensive than we know, than her friends knew...but maybe someone in Ohio knows?
How do issues like hers lead to murder? To telling people your brother and father are molesters or possible rapists? These are malevolent lies, stealing from people is very malevolent, a lot of anger...
Now to the Anthony's-They HAVE TO know that KC is capable of nasty things and that these things are typically associated with some level of mental defect. We are not all capable of such things. CA, the liar that she is, does not seem capable of some of the things KC has done, so I don't jump to the conclusion that it is CA's influence entirely. There are definately, as her friends have noted, moments where KC's mind blends the line between normal and sick.
Want to know more about this, but I think the only people that know for sure when this behavior started, the signs of the behavior earlier in KC's life and the extent of her "antics", are the nuclear Anthony family, and they ain't talkin.
(NOW-Just because I am laying out that KC is not always lucid does not mean she does not fully understand what she has done and that she faces the DP, so she will continue this lie whereas in the past she has confessed or felt she needed to commit herself to clear the swirlies in her head. She did this murder on purpose, my point is that the manic moments KC had that caused her to do evil things were what sets her apart from those of us incapable of such things.)

I think you've done a well thought out and thoughtful point Jayla - thank you! Yes, this is absolutely information we don't know - when did this behavior begin to manifest itself, or has it been slowing snowballing since before she started school. And yes, the Anthony's are definitely not talking, which also makes me wonder even more if this is the family secret and they have known she's been "not right" for a long time. And I agree ICA is very aware of what she is doing. But to me, if ICA is saying she has mental issues, it means she's done something really inexcusable and is looking for an easy out.

I'm wondering if any of you have the same kind of family member I do. When we get together, we find ourselves walking on eggshells, and avoiding certain subjects, so this person doesn't "fly off the handle" or "go on a rant" or just plain lose their temper and cause a scene. I've only just realized we do this and I don't like it - and am not prepared to do it any more just to keep the peace.

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm just not seeing Bipolar in Cindy.

Wow - watch the Zenaida civil testimony tapes again featuring CA. That is CLASSIC manic behavior.

 

[Padua]

Bipolar Disorder only really occurs in .8% of the population. The reason everyone says they have Bipolar is because insurance will reimburse for it which equals the doctor getting paid for his services. The doctor can also prescribe a huge list of meds for bipolar versus saying someone is depressed and being limited to antidepressants.

 

[logicalgirl]

Bipolar Disorder only really occurs in .8% of the population. The reason everyone says they have Bipolar is because insurance will reimburse for it which equals the doctor getting paid for his services. The doctor can also prescribe a huge list of meds for bipolar versus saying someone is depressed and being limited to antidepressants.

That may very well be true, but three members of my immediate family are bi-polar, and I have participated in their manic phase by being the one who put them into psychiatric holding so they couldn't hurt themselves and got back on medication.
When I watched CA during that testimony, I knew what she was going to do before she did it. The only thing she didn't do was put her feet up in front of her, because nothing was there, but she did sit spread eagled, which she would have done even if she wasn't wearing slacks. It was eerie to watch - I found it very very upsetting.

(fortunately for me, I am only a mini-bi - which means I have long periods of extreme energy, which is typical - I love - and I monitor my down time very closely. When I get to the dark cliff and get ready to jump - I know when it's time for help. Most Bi's don't know.)

 

[OneLostGrl]

Wow - watch the Zenaida civil testimony tapes again featuring CA. That is CLASSIC manic behavior.

I'm seeing Arrogance, I'm seeing shamelessness, I'm seeing anger, I'm seeing she's pissed at being called out on her behavior.. I'm seeing defensiveness, passive-aggressive game playing. I'm seeing a clear victim mentality. What I'm seeing is narcissistic rage not a person in a manic episode (and yes, I know what mania looks like- I have Bipolar) I'm seeing a woman so Codependent and enmeshed with her daughter that she can't find fault anywhere but outside of "them". What I see is a woman who can't admit her faults (who doesn't see that she even has any faults!) and is so afraid of losing her Narcissistic supply she will stop at nothing. Sure she's hyper and swinging her legs and pointing her finger and can't sit still but that's anger not mania. Mania is not induced by being called out on our bad behavior or by being questioned about things we'd rather not discuss. None of this is "classic manic behavior".. classic personality disordered behavior? Yup!

IMO

 

[nyvictoria]

OneLostGirl, ITA! Cindy oozes anger and it's JMO but I think Cindy is potentially more dangerous than Casey. It makes me sick to imagine what the combo of Cindy/Casey would have done to Caylee's emotional health. Throw George and Lee into the mix and you've got one twisted brew. The Anthony home was boiling over with personality disorder on a gargantuan level.

On an OT note, I always enjoy reading your posts!

 

[LambChop]

What sticks out in my mind are the statements which have been made about after KC delivered Caylee that the nurse placed Caylee in CA's arms and she was the first to hold her. I feel this was wrong for the nurse to have done because I believe CA probably asked for some professional courtesy such as, "I'm a nurse so let me hold the baby while you attend to KC." We know from statements that this was a "bone of contention" between the two of them. I believe a baby should be placed on Mom's stomach or in her arms directly after birth as it is a very important bonding moment.

I speak from experience of my own. First child I was out and did not see her for 6 hours after her birth as she was premature and they would not let me out of bed. Close to her but not as close as my second daughter who I was awake for and had her on my stomach and then held her before they took her to clean her up. Very close. With my third child there were also complications and he was wisked away, not as close as the middle child. I think it is a very important bonding moment which they have apparently discovered because of the way birthing rooms are today.

This may be why Caylee was so attached to CeCe. They bonded immediately as if they were mother and child. This goes much deeper, I believe. KC being treated as the means for CA to get another child. Sad, very, very sad. jmo

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Bold is mine-

Personality disorders

And no, unless treated , typically those with Bipolar have a difficult time holding down a job. Bipolar depression can be crippling and mania's often make us irresponsible so we tend to miss a lot of time. A survey by DBSA (http://www.dbsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Employment_Information) found 88% of those they polled said their bipolar affected their ability to perform their job duties. 65% said they change jobs more often than other people .. and 58% said they quit working outside the home at all.

passive agressive= Personality disorder



Pattern of Control Through Generosity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2k73P6vWEg

This is so insightful. She has a clear way of explaining things too.
One more thing I'd like to add, if you try to give something to a person who operates as Victoria describes, they will be suspicious as to why are you doing that. In other words, they think you must have agenda because they know they have one when they give. It's hard for them to accept that you simply want to give this to them because you can and you don't expect anything in return.

o/t a little - when you volunteer for your child's teacher (which I did when he was little because I could, she needed it, I actually enjoyed it but STILL there was a self serving motive involved) you are doing it so you're in the know regarding things related to your child. I have seen this taken to the extreme where the parent has ins with the school board, PTA, staff, etc. That way their kid will be placed with the best teachers, etc. They know this and that's why they do it. Same with church volunteer stuff. If they're not recognized, given the best seats for the Christmas pageant, etc. they get their noses out of joint. True giving is when you're not expecting anything in return; out of the goodness of your own heart. None of the above is bad until you get to that point of expecting to be catered to in return (that sometimes happens naturally as a thank you gesture but when the attitude is that YOU SHOULD GET something is when things become disingenuous).

 

[OneLostGrl]

This is so insightful. She has a clear way of explaining things too.
One more thing I'd like to add, if you try to give something to a person who operates as Victoria describes, they will be suspicious as to why are you doing that. In other words, they think you must have agenda because they know they have one when they give. It's hard for them to accept that you simply want to give this to them because you can and you don't expect anything in return.

o/t a little - when you volunteer for your child's teacher (which I did when he was little because I could, she needed it, I actually enjoyed it but STILL there was a self serving motive involved) you are doing it so you're in the know regarding things related to your child. I have seen this taken to the extreme where the parent has ins with the school board, PTA, staff, etc. That way their kid will be placed with the best teachers, etc. They know this and that's why they do it. Same with church volunteer stuff. If they're not recognized, given the best seats for the Christmas pageant, etc. they get their noses out of joint. True giving is when you're not expecting anything in return; out of the goodness of your own heart. None of the above is bad until you get to that point of expecting to be catered to in return (that sometimes happens naturally as a thank you gesture but when the attitude is that YOU SHOULD GET something is when things become disingenuous).

And someone who has been "raised" by someone like she describes will also tend to look for ulterior motives when others want to "give" to them.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I went back and listened to some more audio this week and am thinking through KC's psyche again. Probably coming to the same conclusions that many of you have come to already, but as we get further out from July 2008, the picture is actually getting a little more clear on who this murderess is:

-KC tells Rob Dick to get dirt on Kio-Venomous towards Kio...hmmm-Is that because Kio was talking about the area where Caylee was left, and hitting too close to home/giving KC away? At any rate, Kio is one of the first to have told us that KC had mental problems, was a liar, etc...
-Michelle Murphy tells us that KC recognized her poor mental state-Moments of lucidity...
-Annie told us the same, that KC fessed to being a mental case.
-JG says something in his September interview that I had glossed over until this last listen-That KC was mentally ill, known to lie. His dad, RG, states that they'd always known KC was weird, but that now (that she had "lost" Caylee), her tendencies must have lead her to trouble-she had it in her to find trouble based on the behavior RG had observed.

This is quite a few people that have told us that they knew KC was either ill or bizarre or just a liar, and there are a few more people that will say the same, but these 5 indicated that KC either admitted it or manifested it in very pointed ways.
This leads me to believe the people closest to her know she has issues that may be greater and more extensive than we know, than her friends knew...but maybe someone in Ohio knows?
How do issues like hers lead to murder? To telling people your brother and father are molesters or possible rapists? These are malevolent lies, stealing from people is very malevolent, a lot of anger...
Now to the Anthony's-They HAVE TO know that KC is capable of nasty things and that these things are typically associated with some level of mental defect. We are not all capable of such things. CA, the liar that she is, does not seem capable of some of the things KC has done, so I don't jump to the conclusion that it is CA's influence entirely. There are definately, as her friends have noted, moments where KC's mind blends the line between normal and sick.
Want to know more about this, but I think the only people that know for sure when this behavior started, the signs of the behavior earlier in KC's life and the extent of her "antics", are the nuclear Anthony family, and they ain't talkin.
(NOW-Just because I am laying out that KC is not always lucid does not mean she does not fully understand what she has done and that she faces the DP, so she will continue this lie whereas in the past she has confessed or felt she needed to commit herself to clear the swirlies in her head. She did this murder on purpose, my point is that the manic moments KC had that caused her to do evil things were what sets her apart from those of us incapable of such things.)

It never ceases to amaze me how differently people can view the same set of circumstances. I won't go over all of them but,

1. I've always wondered about Kio's self insertion into the case, lying about KC calling her to borrow money and not being able to substantiate phone calls. :waitasec:

2. Annie visited KC two times, spent the night at her house when KC was out on bail because, she said, she wanted to talk to her friend because she was having her own problem about something that wasn't revealed to us. :waitasec: So what does she do?, runs straight into the arms of her lunatic friend. I recall that AD claimed that KC lied but not that KC was a mental case or anything like that. Also there are several pictures of Annie holding Caylee lovingly but AD told LE that Caylee only wanted KC so she could never got very close to Caylee. :waitasec:

3. JG appeared as if he was in love with KC and was in frequent contact with her during the timeframe of Summer 2008. They kept a friendship going until he felt threatened of being dragged into the case. So :waitasec:.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm not. But I have to rebuttle when I honestly have another viewpoint. Some peoples' motives regarding this case have seemed unclear to me.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

And someone who has been "raised" by someone like she describes will also tend to look for ulterior motives when others want to "give" to them.

That makes sense. If you've witnessed a manipulator in action your whole life, then it would be difficult to accept that someone simply would choose to be nice to you or give you something because, guess what?, they like you. :blowkiss:

 

[logicalgirl]

I'm seeing Arrogance, I'm seeing shamelessness, I'm seeing anger, I'm seeing she's pissed at being called out on her behavior.. I'm seeing defensiveness, passive-aggressive game playing. I'm seeing a clear victim mentality. What I'm seeing is narcissistic rage not a person in a manic episode (and yes, I know what mania looks like- I have Bipolar) I'm seeing a woman so Codependent and enmeshed with her daughter that she can't find fault anywhere but outside of "them". What I see is a woman who can't admit her faults (who doesn't see that she even has any faults!) and is so afraid of losing her Narcissistic supply she will stop at nothing. Sure she's hyper and swinging her legs and pointing her finger and can't sit still but that's anger not mania. Mania is not induced by being called out on our bad behavior or by being questioned about things we'd rather not discuss. None of this is "classic manic behavior".. classic personality disordered behavior? Yup!

IMO

Truly this is my last word because we can go back and forth and don't need to agree. If an individual is in a manic phase, extreme bad behavior results if they are forced into a situation they don't want to be in. Rage, violent behavior, expressed often in a completely shameless way - I have personally experienced it over and over again including increased physical strength. I can appreciate it may not be classic manic behavior for you in a manic phase, although these are not often remembered clearly because in some stages of manic behavior - the individual has lost their "filters" - but in my family members they can and do occur.

 

[Aedrys]

It never ceases to amaze me how differently people can view the same set of circumstances. I won't go over all of them but,

1. I've always wondered about Kio's self insertion into the case, lying about KC calling her to borrow money and not being able to substantiate phone calls. :waitasec:

2. Annie visited KC two times, spent the night at her house when KC was out on bail because, she said, she wanted to talk to her friend because she was having her own problem about something that wasn't revealed to us. :waitasec: So what does she do?, runs straight into the arms of her lunatic friend. I recall that AD claimed that KC lied but not that KC was a mental case or anything like that. Also there are several pictures of Annie holding Caylee lovingly but AD told LE that Caylee only wanted KC so she could never got very close to Caylee. :waitasec:

3. JG appeared as if he was in love with KC and was in frequent contact with her during the timeframe of Summer 2008. They kept a friendship going until he felt threatened of being dragged into the case. So :waitasec:.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm not. But I have to rebuttle when I honestly have another viewpoint. Some peoples' motives regarding this case have seemed unclear to me.

Having been a victim of a manipulator, I can tell you, it's the hardest thing in the world to accept that you've been manipulated, or accept that the person, the friend you thought you had, was never your friend and is a bad person. I remember trying to find something good about the person that manipulated me, that I couldn't have been so very wrong, and it's just extremely hard to accept that I was manipulated and this person was never ever my friend, not even for a second. I'm betting these friends tried to believe in her and didn't want to believe that she had done something so horrible. I mean, who wants to admit to themselves much less anyone else that they were intimate with a monster or were close friends with a monster? I think this best describes poor JG, and Kio to a certain extent.

I also think Annie was more worried about Casey flipping on her or getting her into trouble too. I think her motivations were selfish mostly. I mean, saying the things she did was to make sure Casey wouldn't throw her under the bus. Annie was terrified of being connected to this case because she knew she had given Casey drugs before.

I do think, too, that once some of these people realized what a liar and bad person Casey was, they went overboard with it. I think with Kio, she wanted to make sure to make Casey look as bad as possible, and I don't blame her. I think her silence now means that she knows she went too far with things she couldn't substantiate in order to make this former friend of hers pay the price for betraying her.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Having been a victim of a manipulator, I can tell you, it's the hardest thing in the world to accept that you've been manipulated, or accept that the person, the friend you thought you had, was never your friend and is a bad person. I remember trying to find something good about the person that manipulated me, that I couldn't have been so very wrong, and it's just extremely hard to accept that I was manipulated and this person was never ever my friend, not even for a second. I'm betting these friends tried to believe in her and didn't want to believe that she had done something so horrible.

I mean, who wants to admit to themselves much less anyone else that they were intimate with a monster or were close friends with a monster? I think that explains JG and Kio, and to a certain extent, Annie. I also think Annie was worried about Casey flipping on her or getting her into trouble too. I think her motivations were selfish mostly.

I feel ya! I ended up the complete opposite, I spent my life assuming everyone was out to take advantage of, manipulate and lie to me. I get why Casey kept herself at a distance, why she shut her emotions off, why she stole, lied and manipulated everyone she came into contact with. The only thing I don't "get" about her is (allegedly) killing her child. My guess has always been that perhaps her "friends" kinda felt the same way- she was a screw up, sure.. but seemed more a "victim" than anything else and had never been violent so they have probably had a hard time coming to terms with all of this. She hid her true self very well (just as her mother taught and encouraged her to)

 

[Aedrys]

I feel ya! I ended up the complete opposite, I spent my life assuming everyone was out to take advantage of, manipulate and lie to me. I get why Casey kept herself at a distance, why she shut her emotions off, why she stole, lied and manipulated everyone she came into contact with. The only thing I don't "get" about her is (allegedly) killing her child. My guess has always been that perhaps her "friends" kinda felt the same way- she was a screw up, sure.. but seemed more a "victim" than anything else and had never been violent so they have probably had a hard time coming to terms with all of this. She hid her true self very well (just as her mother taught and encouraged her to)

Oh believe me, I don't trust people easily anymore. I was paranoid for awhile. But I moved on from that, and have learned to spot manipulators a lot better now. I will not be taken advantage of again.

And I disagree about Casey. She was NEVER a victim. She just made people believe she was this good, nonviolent girl. Then Caylee came along and threatened to steal the life Casey loved from Casey. Caylee ended up bringing Casey's true identity out for everyone to see. She's nothing but a self centered sociopath. The way she was raised certainly didn't help either, but I've never thought there was a way for Casey to not come out the way she did. Even if she had good parents, she'd still be a lying sociopath.