Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[evergreen]

(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.

I was watching the first few minutes of one of LA visits and I was struck out how much "happy" energy she was putting out, like her and Lee were about to plan this awesome vacation to Costa Rica or something and she couldn't wait for the departure day...

 

[evergreen]

(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was malice or even intent, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if no more than a coldblooded sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

the LE detectives/profilers mentioned that there are two ways someone in KC's position usually goes. one is eventually coming around and owning up to the accident. Evidently this has happened often enough that they know the profile of a woman who initially is embarrassed and doesn't own up to it but eventually does. But they tell KC, that you aren't acting like "that" person. The more lies you put out, the more you lead us in confusion and the wrong direction, the more we have little choice but to see you as a cold ruthless killer who is stonewalling. This makes intuitive sense and is the operative way forward for law enforcement based on the behavior of one KC Anthony.

 

[debs]

(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.

(bold, mine) Really? Where are the interviews when Cindy says this? I have never seen them make those statements, not even in the jail tapes. And no, we aren't privy to their private moments when they may wonder these things. But neither are we privy to Casey's private moments when she might.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her.

Nothing Casey has ever said, or done, has shown me one iota of guilt. I do not think she is capable of guilt because she justifies every action she takes in her own mind. Any statements that "resemble" fear or guilt was only to manipulate and say the things the person she is talking to "wanted to hear". Casey has no remorse, no guilt, no fears. The only "fear" I believe she possessed of her mother is that she knew her mother knows her lies and better than anyone else...and probably the only one that she feared would/could divulge her for being the liar she is. That is what she was fearful of with her mother.

 

[radio]

Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

 

[debs]

Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

 

[BonKai]

Snipped for space by me

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Excellent eval. :clap:

P.S. I think you should change your screen name to Lucy. :blowkiss:

 

[Dr. Pennypacker]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Very good evaluation.

Bravo!!:clap:

 

[radio]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

$.05 for you!!!

Thanks for responding. I appreciate it very much. A lot to absorb too. Thanks for writing it all out.

Wow what a twisted sister huh? Maybe she didn't have a good foundation, I'm sure that is true, but now she has the LAW.

 

[evergreen]

Nothing Casey has ever said, or done, has shown me one iota of guilt. I do not think she is capable of guilt because she justifies every action she takes in her own mind. Any statements that "resemble" fear or guilt was only to manipulate and say the things the person she is talking to "wanted to hear". Casey has no remorse, no guilt, no fears. The only "fear" I believe she possessed of her mother is that she knew her mother knows her lies and better than anyone else...and probably the only one that she feared would/could divulge her for being the liar she is. That is what she was fearful of with her mother.

right there is no guilt "there"...

 

[Devon]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Oh wow!! By Jove I think you've got it! :clap::clap::clap:

Your analysis seems to fit what we know of KC and her mother better than any other I have read so far.

So do you think KC is also a victim, and if so, do you think she deserves some sympathy or pity, even if it is just a minute amount? Personally I do feel some pity for her (ducks head quickly :help. I still believe she must pay for her crimes and whatever culpability she has for Caylee's death, but can't help feeling that some blame also lies with her parents, especially CA. The whole tragic situation makes me both angry and sad. It may turn out to be true that Caylee's life was taken by her own mother, but IMO KC's mother has had a pretty big hand in screwing hers up too!

 

[Brini]

Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

That's why sociopaths are called, "moral morons."

 

[Brini]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Heck, Debs, I'll give you $5.00 for this! And, you win today's Woolworth Award for Dimestore Psychology!

I disagree with you on only one point. I don't think she is capable of love, not even for her child. Sociopaths are not "developed" enough. They are missing parts of their personalities. For that reason, I don't think she tried to spare Klee from CA's enmeshment. I think she just saw Klee as a power icon, in the war between the Queen Bees.

But, I'll bet you are right, in that she observed and mimicked other moms! If you put KC on a couch, she'd turn into an accent pillow, in a harmonizing color.

I think, like you, that once she gets used to the idea of being in jail for decades, she'll be the perfect prisoner. She might even end up a trusty. She won't agitate for extras, but she will manage to get them.

And, the structure might even be good for her. Might make her feel secure and protected. Three hots and a cot, time scheduled for her, every day.

I think they might have only two danger areas: 1) seducing males in the system, and 2) cageing people who write to her out of money.

Like most notorious criminals, she is likely to have "fans." Like many other notorious criminals, I think she's likely to marry a fan, to have someone outside to send her things.

 

[Brini]

I was thinking of starting a thread for this question, but felt it would probably be Bumped here.

I have read alot here of personal experiences with people like Casey, & explanations of personality disorders, etc.

I feel the outrage with people like her, Joran Van Der S., & many more, seem to be a total lack of Empathy coupled with an arrogant bravado & no fear! I have read that this is indictive of sociopathic behavior & understand what it is.

My question is: Is it our society, the "world in which we live" that is contributing to, what seems to me, a growing number of particularly younger people affected with this? Also, since the inception of the internet, video games & the ever accelerating, information gathering, overloading world we are now forced to keep up with, it begs the question is "sensory overload =Sensory Depravation?

Would love to hear from the experts on this.

It's theorized that part of this is genetic. Pollutants?

But, I think you are on to something. Kids get too much information, too early, these days. Seems like they don't have as much time to BE kids. More surfing the Net, at early ages, than climbing trees, and playing "Red Rover."

 

[debs]

*snipped*
I disagree with you on only one point. I don't think she is capable of love, not even for her child. Sociopaths are not "developed" enough. They are missing parts of their personalities. For that reason, I don't think she tried to spare Klee from CA's enmeshment. I think she just saw Klee as a power icon, in the war between the Queen Bees.
*snipped*

Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

 

[Devon]

Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

Once again Debs, you are totally 'on the money' IMO!

So, so very sad!

I also believe that Caylee's death was an accident, but I have also considered the possibility that if KC did actually kill her, whether it may have been because she feared that CA would actually get custody of Caylee and throw KC out, thus severing her own poisoned, but still essential, relationship with CA whilst at the same time leaving Caylee to be 'mothered' the same way that she was. A 'soft' kill would fit this scenario, possibly suffocation or, dare I say it, chloroform!

 

[MaryAnn]

BTW-- As little sympathy as I have for the As, I'm pretty sure that GA has been deeply hurt by KC's rumors about his "abuse."

My guess is that in the highly unlikely event that he came on to KC, CA wouldn't "disbelieve" or "compete." She'd simply kick his cojones up to between his tonsils, put his stuff on the porch, and that would be that. Kind of like she did when he lost all that family money in the Nigerian scam.

And, KC would make VERY sure that CA found out! It's called "splitting.," and Axis IIs do it ALL the time.

I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

 

[kiki the parrot]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

Bingo. Omg you've saved me so much time and energy trying to explain this I will gladly throw in my nickel lol. Besides... you did a much better job! JMO2!

 

[kiki the parrot]

Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with overcontrolling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of limits, and a voice and personality of her own. I'm sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way, while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blameless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one specific picture of KC as a baby resembling another particular one of Caylee (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). In this way, I'd hoped it might help some to remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

 

[Devon]

You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with over controlling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of a voice, and a personality, of her own. And I am sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way (by CA), while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blamesless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one picture of KC as a baby that resembles another particular one of Caylee... (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). This way, I'd hoped it might help some remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

The pictures haven't loaded Kiki but I know exactly which ones you mean. I think you are right to remind us all that KC was once an innocent sweet baby, just like Caylee was. I have said the same thing myself on this forum, more than once, but I don't think there was much interest. I also agree that it is quite possible that Caylee would have received the same 'parenting' In fact, I think it had already started - don't you think that she seemed to have way too much of everything, the best clothes that Disney could offer, enough toys to fill a Dr Barnardo's orphanage, a complete play park of her own etc? CA also mentioned how she would argue with KC to allow Caylee to stay up later than she should and I bet there were many similar incidences of CA wedging her elbows firmly between KC and Caylee's relationship, creating favour with Caylee and blighting KC's role as mom. I think Caylee was already being cosseted, indulged and groomed to be CA's little puppet.