Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[kiki the parrot]

There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO

 

[Brini]

I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

I thought she said, "Abused," and left it at that.

I've many times heard there "is a grain of truth" in KC's lies.

I'm not seeing it. Just lies.

 

[Brini]

There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO

Kiki, you get a cracker, for this!

 

[reeseeva]

To Debs & Kiki....WOW, I have read & re-read this page so many times today, & took the liberty to bring it over to other threads......

Thank you both for such Brilliance in terms.... to putting the dynamics of this family in such a clear & concise light. I think everyone on the Forum reading about this case, should stop & read page 18 of this thread!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: to Both of You:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[JWG]

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

Wow...loved the whole set of ideas and I could not agree more.

I hate it when people say this, but I am going to say this: I don't have the time to dig up the links right now but I remember seeing on one of the news sights that KC is indeed a model prisoner.

(OK, here is a link. :crazy

 

[OneLostGrl]

Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

IMO

 

[JWG]

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life.

Kiki - Very thoughtful post and I think you are spot on.

I think CA tried to act like a parent periodically, and whatever happened Father's Day was the final straw. I made this post on the computer forensics thread (I don't have KC's hard drive, so take this with a big grain of salt) that seems to indicate there was a confrontation over time spent on the computer in early January - and KC complied. IMHO, I think CA may have told KC she needs to spend more time with her daughter and not expect GA and CA to spend all of Caylee's waking hours with her.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Kiki - Very thoughtful post and I think you are spot on.

I think CA tried to act like a parent periodically, and whatever happened Father's Day was the final straw. I made this post on the computer forensics thread (I don't have KC's hard drive, so take this with a big grain of salt) that seems to indicate there was a confrontation over time spent on the computer in early January - and KC complied. IMHO, I think CA may have told KC she needs to spend more time with her daughter and not expect GA and CA to spend all of Caylee's waking hours with her.

Very interesting- Thanks so much for sharing all of your hard work!

 

[kiki the parrot]

Great posts ya'll!


I have encountered many emotions and have changed my opinion a few times a day some days as to wtf may have gone on in the actual murder involved in this case. But what has not wavered is my opinion about this "family". I have mentained throughout this case that Cindy (with help from George's enabling of Cindy's controling, overbearing and manipulative ways) created Casey. I, like deb, believe that Casey "feels". She, like her mother, is just able to turn it on and off at will. Due to years of practice from protecting herself from her mothers emotional betrayl, over and over and over again. It is difficult to grow up constsantly wondering if your mother even loves you. She says she does, one minute. But then the next she's telling you what trash you are. IMO Casey's behaviors began as coping mechanisms.. all of them! Her manipulation, her lies, stealing, cheating, the way she uses her body, her mimicing of others, use of substances, her ability to use her body as a tool in her manipulation, turning on and off tears, playing the victim, etc etc. She learned those behaviors growing up- in that home with those people, that woman teaching her everything she knows!

Casey knows right from wrong, she knows how to behave- she simply chooses not to (Even when you behave, sometimes your mother acts as if she wishes you dead and then on another day you get everything you want even IF you are misbehaving, why behave?!) just as she chose to murder her daughter, if she indeed murdered her daughter. But there is nothing her parents could have done to her that would have caused her to murder her child. There is nothing any of our parents could have done to us that would make us murder our children- that's a choice.

(bold mine) Such is the tragic, twisted nature of narcissistic--or parent-centered (vs child-centered) parenting. It sadly has little or nothing to do with meeting the needs of the developing child--but is focused instead entirely upon the neediness of the parent. Discouraging, damaging, and above all utterly confusing to a child to grow up continually trying to anticipate or secondguess what the "mood" or unpredictable reactions of their parent will be in nearly every situation. Always kept off-balance, forever rebounding, on the alert for any clues. Receiving, as you say, excessive lavish fawning at the parent's whim for the least warranted things--while reprimanded severely for the most innocent mistakes or imperfections. I grew up in a home like this and believe me, the only thing constant is the inconsistency. In GA's videotaped jailhouse visit (alone) w KC, he is wracking his brain for where he went wrong... and says to KC, "Maybe we were just too domineering." I was dumbfounded. (Well, he was half right I guess.) But no clue or inkling that they may have ever been too permissive?! Or that KC had been basically begging her entire life for some kind of limits and boundaries?!! No hint that the first actual consequence that his daughter had ever been required to pay in her entire life cost her the ultimate price? Or reconsidering whether a few earlier on might have averted any of this? Omg, and the more I read interviews w/ CA, the more I shook my head, as she continued denying and defending the indefensible, making excuse after excuse. Like she no doubt marched into her child's teacher if they dared to give her little darling a bad grade, oy... Let's hope and pray CA (& GA) may one day do some self-inventory as parents, even begin to see the link between the values, priorities and parenting extremes, and their daughter's character. Even if it was negligence, as I believe, it isn't just KC's priorities that at the time likely led to this tragedy--just as telling are all the really poor choices KC made in the aftermath. Nothing can bring Caylee back, but we can only hope that their search for answers may eventually lead to some willingness on their part to search within--and search deeply. JMO

 

[mitzi]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

:clap::clap::clap: I have really begun to look forward to reading your posts, debs.

 

[mitzi]

Brini, I think Casey knows what love is. She saw it in other homes, with other people. I imagine the Anthony's disdain for the Grund family is grounded in the notion that they were a loving and affectionate family to Casey and Caylee. If she watched mothers at the park, I'm sure she saw love that wasn't conditional as she knew love to be. I bet she took those things into her parent's home and attempted to use them with her daughter. I really think she wanted to FEEL that love, too. I just think the stronger pull was dysfunction. It is sad, really.

There is a line in the movie "Pretty Woman" where Vivian is talking to Edward and he says to her "You could be so much more!" and her response is "People put you down enough, you start to believe it." Not to romanticize Casey at all, but I believe this was her existence. She looked for love wherever she could find it and could really only recognize it as what she has never experienced and has no foundation to draw upon to return it. I would go further to say that it probably scared the snot out of her to have it conveyed upon her. There are plenty of anecdotal stories from Casey's friends about what Cindy would say about her daughter. Imagine for a moment being the subject of such comments!

People respond to this sort of (I'll call it) torture in many different ways. Some draw upon a strength they never knew they had and get themselves help, learn to overcome, get out of the situation. Some completely "disappear" into the role assigned them, losing all hope for anything else. Then there are those who, I believe are the group Casey falls into, who can't do either........they're trapped. They act out as a show of independence and are punished as a reminder of the control. They attempt to appease the controller and are punished for not being independent enough. When the most elemental aspect of being human (that of making one's own choices) are at every turn controlled, no matter which way things are done, you cannot but imagine it would be difficult to know what the hell to do next.

I do believe Casey loved Caylee. I believe she was terrified to create in her own child the feelings she herself had been trained to have. I do believe Cindy and Casey fought over parenting of Caylee. I do believe it got easier for Casey to just escape and let her mother win the fights and leave Caylee with her. I do believe that Cindy discussed whether she should attempt to get custody of Caylee. I do believe there was a lot of one-upping of each other as the situation boiled. I do believe Casey's stealing and acting out increased exponentially. I do believe she attempted to find any way possible to escape and found herself never being able to get there. I do believe Caylee's death was an accident. I do believe that Casey's defense team will suggest that Caylee's accidental death happened while her mother was attempting to protect her from this cycle. And I do believe that Casey shut down any feelings about the situation because either way.......she's screwed. In the death of Caylee, Casey has finally chosen to get out. The notoriety and fame may be the last attempt Casey makes to get the love she's always wanted, as twisted and sick as that sounds to "normal" people. For her, it will validate that she really IS here, she really DOES matter! "I'm still here." Said it all, for me.

WOW! Another great post!

 

[Mind student]

So many excellent theories presented, thanks to each one of you.

We are all on a mission of seeking the truth. It is very difficult to know that such a horrible thing happened to an innocent person. Then with sincere hearts, going piece by piece in search of the truth.

In my experience, I have seen children that did not come into the world with the same disposition as Caylee. Not all babies bond
with good parents. To assume KC was just like Caylee may or may not be true. CA worries about how things look to others. As a
nurse and mother, people would have expected her to have a
healthy happy little girl. It is apparent she was close to her own parents and would have never wanted them to worry. She may have covered up, odd behavior by KC. ( In the vidio tape the Anthony's both seemed to handle every word say to KC with kid gloves.)

Just submitting this for thought
Mind Student

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

Question for all you mental people. All you forum shrinks, etc.

What kind of circuit breaker must have Casey tripped to end up in this mental state she is in = not feeling remorse, apparently not even missing Caylee, you know the ODD behavior of telling lies whilst knowing no one believes them but tells them anyway. On and on. Not even any signs of shame at being so ridiculous, much less the horrible moral injury Caylee was betrayed with.

Just wondering.:bang:

Truth be told, no pun intended, Casey believes in a lot of her own lies in the sense that whatever "lie" she tells....it's because she is justifying an action that she has herself convinced was right. I hope that makes sense. To her, yes..it may be a lie when she is caught in it...but there is no remorse because she already justified the reason in her mind that she lied to begin with...therefore, she is right and everyone else is wrong. That is the narcisstic brain at work.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

It is quite simple, really. Casey's life is one of adaptation: Whatever situation is at hand, she adapts herself to it, blending in. Whoever she is with is whose life she molds herself to fit perfectly. She has no personality of her own, instead borrowing the personalities of the people in her life. When she's at home, depending on who she's with, she's like her mother, or her father. If both are around, she acts out the dynamic between the two. When she's with her friends, she's just like them.

No one in prison cares whether she's guilt or innocent. Their job is to keep her locked up and in line. Casey is doing just that! I bet she's a model prisoner. She'll never throw a tantrum, she'll never ask for extra. She'll toe the line and she'll never stir the pot.

With her lawyer, he treats her as a bullied child/woman and she plays the part perfectly. In court, I expect we'll see a studious little "law student" sitting next to JB. We'll see someone "bucking up under the pressure" of a trial. We'll see someone whose manner will change so slightly when the hints of Casey-as-victim are mentioned. The eyes will widen, the mouth will downturn, the nose will sniffle. We may even see the infamous pinky eye-wipe technique.

The fact of the matter is, Casey's own personality has never developed past the identification stage, where a child mimics the adults around her and begin to learn how to do things. I have always believed that Casey and Cindy were so enmeshed that Casey's development was stunted when she first attempted to become her own person. I think Cindy's fear of abandonment with a strong-willed child made her use more and more oppositional techniques to keep Casey attached.

Caylee came along and Cindy turned her tactics and attention to her granddaughter. Casey is displaced in the dysfunction and forced to forge a new identity in it. Only Cindy didn't want Casey interfering, and Casey sure didn't want Cindy doing to her daughter what she'd done to Casey. The struggle would have been subtle at first, and then it would intensify.

I have always thought Casey to be selfish, but I also think she truly loved Caylee. I believe she wanted to do the best she could, but had no foundation to draw from. I think she mimicked "mommy" behaviors. I bet she did take Caylee to the park a lot, just so she could watch other mothers with their children to observe how "real moms" acted. She would then try to implement those behaviors at home. I will imagine those didn't sit well with her mother.

You cannot attempt to leave the dynamics of dysfunction (and I think we all are in agreement that this family was the dictionary definition descriptor of dysfunction) without a strong attempt by the primary personality pointing out just how dysfunctional you are. If anyone was damned if you do, damned if you don't, I believe it was Casey.

Do not mistake me for saying that she didn't put her parents through hell. Her lying and stealing from anyone and everyone was tearing the family apart just as much as any dynamic described above. I'm merely saying that the lying and stealing was more a symptom than a causal problem.

Anyway, that's my dimestore psych eval. That'll be $.05, please.

I think I can agree with part of what you're saying...I'm just not sure I am in full agreement. I think the Cindy vs Casey analogy is somewhat off. Remember, George was home a lot. Cindy worked fulltime and was away from the household during a lot of Casey's upbringing. I personally think that Cindy was overwhelmed from the get-go of covering for George in the family household while he was home spoiling the heck out of Casey so that she didn't have to grow up. As for the park, I can just see Casey going through the motions so that she can justify spending time with Casey before she ventured out on her own to her no-job and party life. Remember also...for two years she lied about working...and Caylee was only nearly three years old...so for pretty much most of that child's life Casey "played the role" of whatever she had to do to get the heck out thereafter. I don't believe she was trying to model what other mothers are doing............at all. She had her own reasoning for putting efforts towards Caylee....and that was for onlookers (her parents) so they would "get off her case". She could hear what a good mother she was and a good worker. I'll bet the only praise she really ever had in life was how pretty she was.....did she get praise for doing something good when she did?

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

I thought I had heard everything, but I never read that Casey accused GA of molesting her. OMG!! I really don't believe that for a second. When did she say this? Was this in her texting?

Just an FYI. This is a no-no topic in here. They've asked that this not be discussed because there is no validation and they will shut the thread and lock it. Just a heads up because I just learned this also.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

There are certain things we've been able to observe about this family which are certainly clues to what's brought us here. I personally think it's helpful to recognize the link between the way a person was raised and how this may translate to their inability to develop empathy. I'm also interested in the difference between mental illness and evil, the cycle of generational patterns, and understanding the influences and origin of people's behaviors. I believe until we're willing to consider the source, and to look at where or from whom KC or those like her learn deceit, exploitation or manipulation, that cycle or those influences will continue uninterrupted and there will always be another KC so tragically, in turn, other victims like Caylee. Which is why I am willing to ask questions such as what causes a girl like KC, once undoubtedly every bit as sweet, blameless, innocent and adorable as her own now deceased little daughter, to become devious or indifferent. I'm not excusing her choices--rather if anything, I am saying she should have been taught limits, consequences, accountability, self-control (not to mention the value of truthfulness) all along. It isn't that I'm incapable of empathizing with CA's loss--I have (among four children) a 20 year-old daughter and two year-old granddaughter myself, for which reason if anything I've probably over-identified with CA. It's for this reason I'm probably willing to look farther to consider the root cause of all this sorrow, including the role that parenting extremes clearly play in shaping who our children become.

Interestingly, narcissism in particular is said to result specifically from an overcontrolling parent's simultaneous extremes of coddling (over-indulgence, excessive smothering) AND "beating the bad" (overly harsh and critical inacceptance of mistakes). That is to say when a child is deprived of both appropriate boundaries and discipline, AND permission to fail; when neither humility, nor reasonable limits, correction and consequences are provided, in balance, at critical stages.

Narcissistic parent- vs child-centered parenting produces narcisstic children. People w NPD are compulsive, serial liars. Witness KC's envy, exploitation, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, false inflated self... Much of which might be avoided if raised in an environment instead of GRACE (for mistakes) and TRUTH (consequences, and accountability). Instead it seems that deceit, permissiveness, self-preservation, and enablement were the order of the day, while appearances were given more importance than operating in reality.

KC must surely pay for her crimes. But if we can ever uncover some of these answers we might have a prayer of preventing this nightmare from replaying again and again or producing fewer "KCs" in the world who have learned to make the kind of selfish irresponsible choices which inflict pain on others. Unless of course one believe in demon seeds, or psycho genes. I do not. What we are seeing is, according to most psych experts, learned behavior. The pathological narcissists (and sociopath I suspect) I've known, and the majority of case histories w which I'm familiar, all have a clear identifiable history which anyone could recognize to which their lack of empathy can be linked or attributed. From what we know, there's been very little "positive and consistent" about KC's parenting or upbringing whatsoever.

After CA had been in collusion w KC's lies, letting KC off for stealing from her and virtually every other offense for 22 years, CA finally decides to act like a parent and draws the line that Father's Day--finally threatening to put KC out and hold her daughter accountable for the first time in her life. So in an odd sense KC's right then when she tells LA, "I should've been stopped a long time ago." A statement which reveals both a weakness of conscience, and a consciousness of guilt--beyond which the law will be essentially unconcerned w such nuances, coexisting disorders, contributing factors, or how KC may have come to be the (defiant, irresponsible, blameshifting, deceitful, seemingly indifferent) person she appears to sadly have become...

KC never was held accountable but sadly had her outrageously bad behavior rescued, excused, and enabled again and again, until the ultimate price was paid--by CAYLEE. "kiki the parrot" JMO

I personally do not believe a narcisstic child is raised to become such. I believe they are born that way. I also do not believe Cindy was "as bad a mother", "as responsible for Casey's personality" as many in here are portraying her.

You yourself said Cindy "finally" took a stand when she called the police....well, that is when she entered the picture in our minds. We do not know, again and again I've said this...what Cindy was like prior to Caylee missing. Looking at the overall picture I see her as a full time working mom (a nurse) who had a lot of pressures between a husband who was in and out of jobs and who had problems within his own family (george's father) as well as relocating to another state without a lot of familiar folks to support her needs...having ederly parents, a father who is ill, etc. I believe she was just too stressed to really be a supportive figure for Casey. I believe Cindy is a very strong dominating personality and she was at a lost cause in rearing Casey because anytime she did...Casey ran to daddy and that created problems between mom and daddy thus resentment was probably there...which added to Casey's manipulation techniques. So for that matter...that may have helped her grow into what she was.

I do know the textbooks will describe the parenting skills of one who is narcisstic as you described, however, I believe that only enhances an already narcisstic personality. I know too many narcisstic adults who have brothers and sisters who do not exhibit the same traits and they were raised by the same parents under the same roof. I believe she is what she is....as that is what SHE chose to be. Children are taught to not be selfish and to share their toys...some are just out for themselves and don't care what they are taught...they're going to do it anyway. That's Casey, imo.

 

[DebC]

I think I can agree with part of what you're saying...I'm just not sure I am in full agreement. I think the Cindy vs Casey analogy is somewhat off. Remember, George was home a lot. Cindy worked fulltime and was away from the household during a lot of Casey's upbringing. I personally think that Cindy was overwhelmed from the get-go of covering for George in the family household while he was home spoiling the heck out of Casey so that she didn't have to grow up.

I agree about George. I couldn't get past his greeting to Casey in the jail. "Hello beautiful..." The sort of thing one would say to a pre-pubescent girl.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

(bold mine) Such is the tragic, twisted nature of narcissistic--or parent-centered (vs child-centered) parenting. It sadly has little or nothing to do with meeting the needs of the developing child--but is focused instead entirely upon the neediness of the parent. Discouraging, damaging, and above all utterly confusing to a child to grow up continually trying to anticipate or secondguess what the "mood" or unpredictable reactions of their parent will be in nearly every situation. Always kept off-balance, forever rebounding, on the alert for any clues. Receiving, as you say, excessive lavish fawning at the parent's whim for the least warranted things--while reprimanded severely for the most innocent mistakes or imperfections. I grew up in a home like this and believe me, the only thing constant is the inconsistency. In GA's videotaped jailhouse visit (alone) w KC, he is wracking his brain for where he went wrong... and says to KC, "Maybe we were just too domineering." I was dumbfounded. (Well, he was half right I guess.) But no clue or inkling that they may have ever been too permissive?! Or that KC had been basically begging her entire life for some kind of limits and boundaries?!! No hint that the first actual consequence that his daughter had ever been required to pay in her entire life cost her the ultimate price? Or reconsidering whether a few earlier on might have averted any of this? Omg, and the more I read interviews w/ CA, the more I shook my head, as she continued denying and defending the indefensible, making excuse after excuse. Like she no doubt marched into her child's teacher if they dared to give her little darling a bad grade, oy... Let's hope and pray CA (& GA) may one day do some self-inventory as parents, even begin to see the link between the values, priorities and parenting extremes, and their daughter's character. Even if it was negligence, as I believe, it isn't just KC's priorities that at the time likely led to this tragedy--just as telling are all the really poor choices KC made in the aftermath. Nothing can bring Caylee back, but we can only hope that their search for answers may eventually lead to some willingness on their part to search within--and search deeply. JMO

Now this , I agree with 100%.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

So many excellent theories presented, thanks to each one of you.

We are all on a mission of seeking the truth. It is very difficult to know that such a horrible thing happened to an innocent person. Then with sincere hearts, going piece by piece in search of the truth.

In my experience, I have seen children that did not come into the world with the same disposition as Caylee. Not all babies bond
with good parents. To assume KC was just like Caylee may or may not be true. CA worries about how things look to others. As a
nurse and mother, people would have expected her to have a
healthy happy little girl. It is apparent she was close to her own parents and would have never wanted them to worry. She may have covered up, odd behavior by KC. ( In the vidio tape the Anthony's both seemed to handle every word say to KC with kid gloves.)

Just submitting this for thought
Mind Student

And I believe your thoughts are right on target!

 

[evergreen]

You are on a roll Debs, guess this is your get rich slow scheme... hey that's worth another nickel so now I'm down a whole dime. When we consider how narcissism develops--that twisted mix of excessive coddling, permissiveness, no consequences etc, along with overcontrolling parenting... it isn't hard to figure out why KC became this hardened person in desperate need of limits, and a voice and personality of her own. I'm sure KC loathed the idea of Caylee being raised the same way, while unable to do much about it. At least you've tried to really understand the roots of this disturbed young woman. And to trace the disturbing behavior seen today back to a time when KC was once as blameless as Caylee. In order to illustrate this, I've wanted to juxtapose this one specific picture of KC as a baby resembling another particular one of Caylee (in these two photos, there is a haunting resemblance). In this way, I'd hoped it might help some to remember both the innocent origins of a KC and to imagine, but for this sudden tragedy, the sadly familiar prospect for Caylee after 16 years of similar parenting. Not to excuse, only to understand. JMO

I am going to refuse to see KC as the victim here. There is a victim but it's not KC. There are plenty of unfortunate cases where a child dies accidentally from some kind of parental neglect. Normally, the parent would do everything in their power to save the child, they would bring the event to light, call authorities, call emergency response, get loved ones involved, show grief, show concern, be remorseful, feel guilty, etc.
Their thoughts would go from saving themselves, to saving the child if at all possible. Failing the child being saved from the accidental circumstance, it is laid to rest with dignity and the parent willingly suffers the consequences of their negilgence.

But KC has done None of that. Her attention never went away from herself and to the "accident" victim. She has been secretive, dishonest, gone underground, was never going to report it, did not ask for support or help, and evidence suggests she may even have planned it. And now we find the victim here wrapped in a bag and thrown in a garbage heap, which is not indicative of an accident victim. LE knows how to tell one parent from the other and gave KC every opportunity to come clean and admit it was a terrible accident. She did not. LE has profiles of parents who caused a terrible accident by neglect or a mistake, and parents who commit these terrible crimes on their children. LE has concluded, after considerable analysis of the facts and evidence, that KC is most likely part of the latter category.