Casey & Family Psychological Profile #4

[Knot4u2no]

Aside from self-report, what are some of the more subtle suicide indicators which mental health professionals (to include correctional counselors) take seriously
in assessing a person's self-destructive potential?

In the prison system where I was last employed, every employee received mandatory training by mental health staff and carried a card when on duty which reads:

Self-Injury Risk Indicators
-Making threats to harm self.
-Crying, withdrawn, too sad to talk.
-Acting/Talking in a strange manner compared to normal.
-Hearing/Seeing things that aren’t there.
-Alleging sexual assault by another inmate.
-Experiences major negative change (e.g., death of child/spouse/parent or “Dear John letter”).
-Experiences major negative legal status change (e.g., parole denial, additional sentence).
-Anxious, afraid, pacing, wringing hands.
-Showing signs of self-neglect or abuse (e.g., poor hygiene or cuts and bruises).
-Engaging in bizarre behavior (e.g., smearing feces, drinking out of toilet).
-Giving away property.
-Behavior causes concern for their personal safety.
-Appearing to be intoxicated on drugs or alcohol.

The rather detailed suicide prevention policy required that any of the above Self-Injury Risk Indicators would result in the OIC being contacted. The OIC would subsequently place the inmate on suicide watch and contact Mental Health staff to conduct a mental health screening.

Russell

 

[Knot4u2no]

Before considering KC's ability to use psychotherapy and attain more "balanced" functioning, I'd want to review findings of previously conducted psychological/psychiatric evaluations,
as well as consider the results of any additional studies. (For example, in California, it's often typical prior to sentencing or thereafter to require a 90-day psychological observation
at a prison site designed to conduct studies to identify the most appropriate setting to address a defendant's custodial & mental health needs.)

Unfortunately, women facing imprisonment have no guarantee of actually receiving gender-specific mental health assessment and treatment. Yet, common sense tells us
that women's crimes are different from those of men and are perpetrated for different reasons. Homelessness, poverty, single-motherhood & minority group membership
are leading factors which predispose women to commit crimes. It goes without saying that these psychosocial factors should be addressed in their mental health treatment plans.
Historically, this has not been the case, and women also have been offered fewer educational and vocational programs than men.

Women in custody often experience severe distress and are prone to develop physical health problems. They're at risk for self-harm as well as abuse by male correctional staff.
Women prisoners' physical and psychological health problems often eclipse their other correctional concerns.

There is a high rate of depression, anxiety, substance abuse/dependence and personality disorders among women in custody who may require treatment for their
Axis I disorders (usually medication). They also may receive substance abuse rehabilitation efforts. The leading personality disorders for women inmates include
Borderline Personality Disorder & Antisocial Personality Disorder. While, cognitive behavioral therapy as a modality has been effective in improving maladaptive patterns,
it is not seen as effective with BPDs (where Dialectical Behavior Therapy is becoming the treatment of choice).

After the most recent release of documents in this case, I wonder if KC will ever do prison time.
I shudder at the thought of Dr. Henry Lee with all that plant evidence and his skillful implantation of doubt
(as in his, "Something's wrong here!" admonition to the jury during OJ's trial). So, prison therapy for KC may become a moot point.

Female inmates in North Carolina receive far more resources than male inmates, including a much wider range of services, including mental health services, and better conditions of confinement for comparable crimes. Regarding “undue familiarity” between staff and inmates, female staff are more frequently sexually involved with inmates ... they generally have dependent characteristics or think they are in love.
Russell

 

[Issi]

I don't think that Casey could or should be declared mentally ill; however I do think that she has some type of a psychological disorder. I have had people in my life that suffer from various disorders and with one of them I know first hand what its like to encounter a person who is a pathological liar. Without getting into details, this person fooled everyone around them for over 8 years. There was no indication that this person was lying and never in a million years would I have thought that most of everything they said was a lie. These were not minor lies, and in the end this person hurt a lot of people emotionally. He one day called us and gave us the news that his family (daughter, son-in-law and infant grandson) was killed in a car accident. We befriended this person, grieved with him and did everything we could to be there for him, even giving up time with our families because we wanted to help him. We then found out it was all a lie and this man that we knew and saw daily for over 8 years, never had a family. In fact most of everything we knew about him had been a lie. In the end, although he confessed that he made his whole life up and that nothing was true, he told me that in his mind he still felt that it was real. Till this day I find myself grieving at times for a family that never existed.

I know I'm quoting from an older post, and I hope it's not too frowned upon.

This really resonated with me because I knew someone that was very similar to this person. My wife and I knew a man that we worked with for over 7 years. He was an older gentleman... kinda um... well cantankerous, but with a good heart. He would always tell stories about his children and grandchildren that lived out of state.... and would brag of their accomplishments. His daughter the lawyer.. his son the doctor.. etc etc.. His granddaughter won the spelling bee... whatever.

Well.. we always thought this was very sweet. I mean, why not?

A few years ago, this man passed away from natural causes. He was found dead in his apartment by a concerned neighbor IIRC. Turns out that this man had NO next of kin... no children... "nuthin'". Needless to say, we were all shocked. Everything he had ever told us about his kids was not the truth. In fact, after a few people at work did some research, very few things this colorful character made claims of turned out to be true.

So it begs the question.. Why? Some kind of personality disorder... or just a lonely old man that felt the need to fib to make his life more complete? We'll never know, but it just goes to show that yeah, these people do exist... and Casey Anthony is quite a case study.

Heck, I've got a sister in law that is just like Casey.. Lies about anything and everything... steals from her parents (thousands of dollars) and went to jail for it... The only thing is that she doesn't have a kid to possibly kill thank goodness. My wife and I make comparisons to her and Casey frequently.

The crazy thing is that at face value... you could sit and have a pleasant conversation with her, and never once suspect that she is the way she is. She's never harmed me... and I can sit and talk with her... but my wife, her sister, walks pretty wide circles to avoid her. *shrugs*

 

[jai-yen]

I know I'm quoting from an older post, and I hope it's not too frowned upon.

(snipped)

So it begs the question.. Why? Some kind of personality disorder... or just a lonely old man that felt the need to fib to make his life more complete? We'll never know, but it just goes to show that yeah, these people do exist... and Casey Anthony is quite a case study.

I think it's the latter. The poor old guy probably made up stories so he wouldn't have to face the emptiness in his life. Who can blame him? This is a cruel culture and those who are not "networked" are often left out because others perceive them as being too "different". By making up the stories, he included himself.

He did what he had to do so he would feel included in the cycles of life. It's easy to make judgments about people like that but it's easier than most might think to end up alone.

No comparison to Casey, in my opinion a spoiled brat who takes everything in her life for granted. I doubt Casey ever knew a lonely day in her life ~ beyond the ones she created in her own head. I also doubt she's ever known a moment of gratitude.

(And, no, I'm not usually this judgmental but it's fun to pretend I am on the Internet.



~Jai Yen

 

[Whisperer]

Verite'.....you are most welcome for my input....it didn't fit your bill, I see that.

I thought your question was for correctional officers and counselors (who are correctional also), who knew subtle signs and recognized them. I gave you a simple list of the signs that a corrections staff would notice. I am not aware of them being THAT into inmates to pick up subtle cues, the same as the general public. I see now that you were referring to mental health people within the prison....for the most part they rely on custody to inform them of the changes I mentioned.

I wasn't aware the thread was for professional only. A lot of the wording on here is difficult for the general public to grasp.

 

[Whisperer]

fftopic: Thank You!.....much better


:couch:

 

[debs]

Thanks for the reminder of what are known as "vegetative," or more obvious
signs of severe depression.

In my post above and still, I'm questioning the less obvious, more "subtle"
suicide indicators which would be of concern to mental health professionals.
Russell, where are u?

I'm sure there are plenty of online articles you could read to discover the answer to this question. What are you attempting to determine with this information? Whether Casey is pre-suicidal? Whether she is at high risk? Whether she will be bullied in prison by more dominant prisoners? What exactly would you be looking for with this information?

I'm also not sure why you're "questioning the less obvious, more subtle suicide indicators." By your definition, those would be things not generally picked up by someone whose job it is to make sure a prisoner is where he/she is and not harming or being harmed. I'm not sure where you're going. Perhaps you want to know if the prison system could be revamped to catch these more subtle signs before a prisoner self harms?

Here's the NICIC's document on prison suicides. Perhaps your answers will be within.
Prison Suicide: An Overview and Guidance

 

[sindydee]

I am judging this situation as a 31 year old girl, ( Who, I would very much hope!!) knows exactly (well, within reason!!!!) what is right from wrong. I may be wrong, but I am assuming that most people on here share the same morales. I am just wondering, if someone who is mentally ill (in any way) and themselves dont know this or have anyone (family or friends) to pick up on this and support them to get them help, are really justifiable for their actions? People have knowledge of mental ilnesses, but without being mentally Ill and getting better, (which I doubt is very rare) would anyone know what these people class as right or wrong whilst suffering from a mental illness? I work in the Uk for the national health service (i know. lol) and take several calls a day from people with mental health problems, and these calls are from people who KNOW they are mentally unstable. These people desperately want help, so I can only imagine what the people are like that dont know that they are ill themselves or deny this. Please dont get me wrong, I am not defending KC in any way, but just asking the question that obvioulsy she has some mental illness, but not one she has acknowledged. She would be claiming insanity if this was the case, but instead she is still under the impression that everything she has said is true whilst believing this or lying to people. Whichever one it is I think this clearly states that she is not like you or me. If not you would not be reading this or I would not be writing this, because we care. Feel free to message me back with your views. Dont often post on here, but felt this was an issue I would like to address and have been following the case from day 1. (or 3) sind xxxx

 

[OneLostGrl]

I know I'm quoting from an older post, and I hope it's not too frowned upon.

This really resonated with me because I knew someone that was very similar to this person. My wife and I knew a man that we worked with for over 7 years. He was an older gentleman... kinda um... well cantankerous, but with a good heart. He would always tell stories about his children and grandchildren that lived out of state.... and would brag of their accomplishments. His daughter the lawyer.. his son the doctor.. etc etc.. His granddaughter won the spelling bee... whatever.

Well.. we always thought this was very sweet. I mean, why not?

A few years ago, this man passed away from natural causes. He was found dead in his apartment by a concerned neighbor IIRC. Turns out that this man had NO next of kin... no children... "nuthin'". Needless to say, we were all shocked. Everything he had ever told us about his kids was not the truth. In fact, after a few people at work did some research, very few things this colorful character made claims of turned out to be true.

So it begs the question.. Why? Some kind of personality disorder... or just a lonely old man that felt the need to fib to make his life more complete? We'll never know, but it just goes to show that yeah, these people do exist... and Casey Anthony is quite a case study.

Heck, I've got a sister in law that is just like Casey.. Lies about anything and everything... steals from her parents (thousands of dollars) and went to jail for it... The only thing is that she doesn't have a kid to possibly kill thank goodness. My wife and I make comparisons to her and Casey frequently.

The crazy thing is that at face value... you could sit and have a pleasant conversation with her, and never once suspect that she is the way she is. She's never harmed me... and I can sit and talk with her... but my wife, her sister, walks pretty wide circles to avoid her. *shrugs*

I was like this- I lived my life lying, conning, cheating, breaking the law, screwing people over... I was addicted to prescription drugs at 12- was a used up *advertiser censored* (excuse my mouth but I try to be truthful LOL) by 14, criminal by 15, kicked out of public schools in the 9th grade...

I honestly cannot even tell you how many times I have been arrested, because I don't know. I am a convicted Felon...I have worked as an escort, I have lived in my car.. But my child always came first.. I never pawned him off on anyone- I sold my body so I could support him.

Most people that I know that are like me have done the same- Sure, they are F'd up but they love their kids and take care of them first and foremost.. people like Casey are not people like "me"- comparing them may make society assume people "like me" act like that toward their kids, when they don't. Casey is different, IMO.

ETA- I don't mean to sound as if I think that I was a good mother during this time- I know that I caused my child much damage with my life-style. I was just trying to say that I never thought of harming or leaving or neglecting my son..

 

[OneLostGrl]

I am judging this situation as a 31 year old girl, ( Who, I would very much hope!!) knows exactly (well, within reason!!!!) what is right from wrong. I may be wrong, but I am assuming that most people on here share the same morales. I am just wondering, if someone who is mentally ill (in any way) and themselves dont know this or have anyone (family or friends) to pick up on this and support them to get them help, are really justifiable for their actions? People have knowledge of mental ilnesses, but without being mentally Ill and getting better, (which I doubt is very rare) would anyone know what these people class as right or wrong whilst suffering from a mental illness? I work in the Uk for the national health service (i know. lol) and take several calls a day from people with mental health problems, and these calls are from people who KNOW they are mentally unstable. These people desperately want help, so I can only imagine what the people are like that dont know that they are ill themselves or deny this. Please dont get me wrong, I am not defending KC in any way, but just asking the question that obvioulsy she has some mental illness, but not one she has acknowledged. She would be claiming insanity if this was the case, but instead she is still under the impression that everything she has said is true whilst believing this or lying to people. Whichever one it is I think this clearly states that she is not like you or me. If not you would not be reading this or I would not be writing this, because we care. Feel free to message me back with your views. Dont often post on here, but felt this was an issue I would like to address and have been following the case from day 1. (or 3) sind xxxx

She's lying, she doesn't think what she is saying is true. LOL

 

[jai-yen]

I was like this- I lived my life lying, conning, cheating, breaking the law, screwing people over... I was addicted to prescription drugs at 12- was a used up *advertiser censored* (excuse my mouth but I try to be truthful LOL) by 14, criminal by 15, kicked out of public schools in the 9th grade...

I honestly cannot even tell you how many times I have been arrested, because I don't know. I am a convicted Felon...I have worked as an escort, I have lived in my car.. But my child always came first.. I never pawned him off on anyone- I sold my body so I could support him.

Most people that I know that are like me have done the same- Sure, they are F'd up but they love their kids and take care of them first and foremost.. people like Casey are not people like "me"- comparing them may make society assume people "like me" act like that toward their kids, when they don't. Casey is different, IMO.

OLG, you make a very good point. I don't think any of us can presume that by the simple fact that someone may not be living a mainstream, middle-class life and extrapolate that they don't love and take care of their kids.

Casey, on the other hand, lived a very mainstream, middle-class life. Looking at the photos, the Anthonys have a very nice home and don't seem to be struggling with basic needs. Wants, maybe. They have what they need.

Casey, as I said earlier and certainly only my opinion based on having lived nearly 6 decades, is a spoiled brat. That is the root of it. She honestly has a sense of entitlement and believes she should have what she wants, when she wants it and under which circumstances. She's not accustomed to hearing the word "no" and doesn't believe it applies to her.

She killed Caylee because Caylee was an inconvenience. I don't think she is mentally ill, disadvantaged, struggling or any other peripheral excuse. She's a brat who was going to get her own way, even if it meant systematically getting rid of what she perceived as an inconvenient child. I also believe she did it to hurt Cindy. Casey once said "Sometimes I am just a spiteful b-atch."

As Maya Angelou says, believe what people say about themselves.



~Jai Yen

 

[OneLostGrl]

OLG, you make a very good point. I don't think any of us can presume that by the simple fact that someone may not be living a mainstream, middle-class life and extrapolate that they don't love and take care of their kids.

Casey, on the other hand, lived a very mainstream, middle-class life. Looking at the photos, the Anthonys have a very nice home and don't seem to be struggling with basic needs. Wants, maybe. They have what they need.

Casey, as I said earlier and certainly only my opinion based on having lived nearly 6 decades, is a spoiled brat. That is the root of it. She honestly has a sense of entitlement and believes she should have what she wants, when she wants it and under which circumstances. She's not accustomed to hearing the word "no" and doesn't believe it applies to her.

She killed Caylee because Caylee was an inconvenience. I don't think she is mentally ill, disadvantaged, struggling or any other peripheral excuse. She's a brat who was going to get her own way, even if it meant systematically getting rid of what she perceived as an inconvenient child. I also believe she did it to hurt Cindy. Casey once said "Sometimes I am just a spiteful b-atch."

As Maya Angelou says, believe what people say about themselves.



~Jai Yen

Why should she believe it apply's to her? It never has before! She has been able to do everything she wanted her entire life. Steal money from her parents, her grandparents, her brother, his friends, her friends and was NEVER held accountable!! Her parents let her control them and their moods.. they accept her flimsy lies, her obvious lack of a job (you cannot tell me they didn't know!)...

It's sad, what these people created.

 

[Verité]

In the prison system where I was last employed, every employee received mandatory training by mental health staff and carried a card when on duty which reads:

Self-Injury Risk Indicators
-Making threats to harm self.
-Crying, withdrawn, too sad to talk.
-Acting/Talking in a strange manner compared to normal.
-Hearing/Seeing things that aren’t there.
-Alleging sexual assault by another inmate.
-Experiences major negative change (e.g., death of child/spouse/parent or “Dear John letter”).
-Experiences major negative legal status change (e.g., parole denial, additional sentence).
-Anxious, afraid, pacing, wringing hands.
-Showing signs of self-neglect or abuse (e.g., poor hygiene or cuts and bruises).
-Engaging in bizarre behavior (e.g., smearing feces, drinking out of toilet).
-Giving away property.
-Behavior causes concern for their personal safety.
-Appearing to be intoxicated on drugs or alcohol.

The rather detailed suicide prevention policy required that any of the above Self-Injury Risk Indicators would result in the OIC being contacted. The OIC would subsequently place the inmate on suicide watch and contact Mental Health staff to conduct a mental health screening.

Russell

Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks so much, once again, for your time and excellent input.

 

[Verité]

Verite'.....you are most welcome for my input....it didn't fit your bill, I see that.

I thought your question was for correctional officers and counselors (who are correctional also), who knew subtle signs and recognized them. I gave you a simple list of the signs that a corrections staff would notice. I am not aware of them being THAT into inmates to pick up subtle cues, the same as the general public. I see now that you were referring to mental health people within the prison....for the most part they rely on custody to inform them of the changes I mentioned.

I wasn't aware the thread was for professional only. A lot of the wording on here is difficult for the general public to grasp.

Beyond "thanks," which I already expressed, I'm at a loss for words to express my appreciation for your thoughtful review of the more dramatic
signs of suicide.

For professionals only? Not to my knowledge. But the fact that Knot4u2No
did provide the subtle indicators which I requested should be a plus for all
of us. We can learn from each other as well as benefit from his expertise
in the criminal justice system. I have a right to my choice of words just
as you do yours.

For gosh sakes, let's not stoop to petty bickering!

 

[JBean]

As I have stated many times, as far as we know the only person that has any posted credentials as to their qualifications is Russell. beyond that there are no professionals on this thread that I know of.

 

[OneLostGrl]

As I have stated many times, as far as we know the only person that has any posted credentials as to their qualifications is Russell. beyond that there are no professionals on this thread that I know of.

:blowkiss:

 

[Verité]

What are you attempting to determine with this information? Whether Casey is pre-suicidal? Whether she is at high risk? Whether she will be bullied in prison by more dominant prisoners? What exactly would you be looking for with this information?

No mystery in my inquiry! If you go back a couple pages in this thread, there's a rather unequivocal, albeit unsupported statement about the likelihood that
KC is likely to commit suicide even before imprisonment. Rather than disagree & provoke an argument, it's my style to first consider that I might be
overlooking something, i.e. the more subtle indicators of suicide. I was trying to find out what they are. That's all!

Thanks for the reference you provided.

 

[kageykaren]

No mystery in my inquiry! If you go back a couple pages in this thread, there's a rather unequivocal, albeit unsupported statement about the likelihood that
KC is likely to commit suicide even before imprisonment. Rather than disagree & provoke an argument, it's my style to first consider that I might be
overlooking something, i.e. the more subtle indicators of suicide. I was trying to find out what they are. That's all!

Thanks for the reference you provided.

Many posts back I aked some of the posters posting in the psych thread to maybe take a min.away from the back and forth discussions of KC's possible diagnosis subject that we have many threads already existing since the beginning. Verite there are many. I thought it would be an enlightning subject on the state of affairs cncerning KC mental health while in custody. Many members and lurkers have not experienced the mental health field, either as a patient or a mental health worker. Russle you've been great answering these basic questions in a way lay prople can understand. As workers in the field it is easy to forget many are not familiar with forensic psychology and how it pertains to a criminal incarcerated at the level KC is. We can all discuss her psychiatric care in a Federal prison at a later date. So I have a question Do guards act like a mental health tech. and chart notes on prisoners from each shift? Would these chart type notes be admissable in court? Russle I agree with your comment, "No meds for KC while incarcerated!" "No Pain No Gain"

 

[nancy botwin]

Truth, Lies and Self-Deception

 By Dr. Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D. on November 30, 2008 - 8:01pm in Evil Deeds
Folie a deux is an idiomatic French expression meaning "craziness of two." This fascinating syndrome is referred to diagnostically in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV-TR as Shared Psychotic Disorder, one of several types of psychosis. How common is this condition, what causes it, and what can it teach us about the nature and perils of self-deception?


Dr. Stephen Diamond is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist in Los Angeles. He is the author of Anger, Madness, and the Daimonic: The Psychological Genesis of Violence, Evil, and Creativity.

I brought this over from the other thread, per OneLostGirl's request and bc I thought others might be interested.
Folie a deux is reportedly extremely rare. And it's interesting that Dr. Diamond posits the possibility of a Foile a Trois between Casey, Cindy and George.
I personally don't think Casey Anthony is delusional-- but we haven't been able to see her uncensored behavior for awhile-- so anything is possible.

If there IS a shared delusional system between or among the Anthony's, I'd argue that it's a curious sort of inverted version of the Foile a Deux.

*Casey was originally non-delusional and cognizant of her actions-- she knew Caylee was dead and that she was responsible, hence the mad scramble to create absurd lies and wild goose chases, etc.

*Cindy refuses to accept the obvious and seizes upon Casey's lies which ultimately form the foundation for her own delusional belief that Caylee is alive and Casey is being wrongfully accused.

*The incarcerated Casey begins to unravel and slowly embraces Cindy's delusion-- once Caylee is found dead, it's the only way she can maintain her false sense of self and also feel secure in her belief that she's being treated unfairly by society, LE and most of all-- her family.

*Now the delusion is primarily vested in Casey and she's angrier than ever.
I don't think George ever joined Cindy and Casey in the delusional dance, if there was one. And now Cindy's been forced to confront the flaws in her delusion and it's crumbled. So, Casey stands alone-- keeps pushing the nanny theory, refuses to take a plea, and is mortified that her family didn't honor her wishes re: Caylee's remains.

I don't really think Casey is delusional. But if this psychological phenomenon were at play, I think it could have played out like this-- something like delusional hot potato?? :waitasec:

 

[Knot4u2no]

Many posts back I aked some of the posters posting in the psych thread to maybe take a min.away from the back and forth discussions of KC's possible diagnosis subject that we have many threads already existing since the beginning. Verite there are many. I thought it would be an enlightning subject on the state of affairs cncerning KC mental health while in custody. Many members and lurkers have not experienced the mental health field, either as a patient or a mental health worker. Russle you've been great answering these basic questions in a way lay prople can understand. As workers in the field it is easy to forget many are not familiar with forensic psychology and how it pertains to a criminal incarcerated at the level KC is. We can all discuss her psychiatric care in a Federal prison at a later date. So I have a question Do guards act like a mental health tech. and chart notes on prisoners from each shift? Would these chart type notes be admissable in court? Russle I agree with your comment, "No meds for KC while incarcerated!" "No Pain No Gain"

Correction Officers (what guards prefer to be called) are the front line of all types of services in any jail/prison, including recognizing and reporting potential problems, mental health and otherwise. They do have to chart notes under certain conditions of confinement, including when an inmate has been placed on suicide watch. At minimum they must document that the mental health orders were followed, that the checks for well-being were conducted as ordered (e.g., entry every 15 minutes, preferably at random intervals to average less than 15 minutes). They would also have to document any other information required by policy/procedure or specific medical or mental health orders related to the conditions of confinement. These documents are legal documents and subject to use by defense as well as prosecution.

Just my opinions ...
Russell