Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5

[sunflowerchick]

I have to say I somewhat agree with icherish here. I don't really see what Cindy's possible issues have to do with this. I can understand the need to figure out what happened as prevention efforts, but I don't think that is what this is. In fact, if Cindy was actually diagnosed with mental illness, there would be nothing to understand. We could just look at it and say "oh it must be genetic".

I think instead the point of this thread is to try to explain away some of Cindy's behavior. I think if we can "prove" to ourselves that Cindy is mentally ill, then that makes it easier for us to accept some of the things she has done.

The problem with this line of thinking is Cindy has been faced with a situation that no one else has, so I don't think there is anyway to "justify" her behavior, and more importantly I don't think there is a need to. There would be no previous examples for her to look at to say "oh this is the right thing to do" or "this is how I should handle this" and by the same token, nothing we can compare this to in order to say she acted differently than others. To the contrary, she has acted just like other mothers with children who committed horrible crimes.

I still believe that Cindy has been a grieving mother and grandmother from the beginning. Grief causes odd behavior, and I think that is the ONLY reason that she has acted the way she has.

Just my opinion...

 

[OneLostGrl]

Onelostgrl, thank you for answering respectfully. I have to say though, I have no idea how you interepreted from my post that I am insinuating mental illness is a "dirty word". That certainly is not my belief nor was it the purpose of my post. I simply do not understand the pigeonholing of Cindy..that because she was dealing with a deeply disturbed young woman that was also her daughter, or that she behaved half out of her mind while Caylee was missing means that she MUST have a pre-existing mental illness or PD. In light of the extroaordinary circumstances of this case, I just don't see the validity.

You said parents with mental illness and/or pd often create children like Casey. By the same token, there are good, stable parents who do end up with children like Casey. And then there are plenty of parents with mental illnesses and PD's who don't have children like Casey. My point is there is no cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all as to who ends up with a child like Casey.

I know many people who survived growing up in dysfunctional homes and while they have various issues, they are generally good people who didn't end up behaving even remotely like Casey. On the other hand, I have a cousin who grew up with a decent home life and parents- yet she has always exhibited sociopathic-type behaviors. My own father suffered from manic-depression, alcoholism, and probably NPD. My mother was terribly unbalanced mentally while I was growing up- emotional problems and a tendency to engage in risky behaviors. I was far from unscathed, (I have generalized anxiety disorder and used to suffer horrible panic attacks) but somehow I knew it was wrong to hurt others, steal, cheat and lie (even though my father did it constantly). I have made my fair share of mistakes in life, but one thing I did do right from a young age was actively choose NOT to do certain things my parents did, simply by learning from their poor example. I avoided alcohol and drugs, because I saw what it did to my family. I'd be damned if I was gonna do it to me and mine... I am not saying that makes me better than anyone who have learned life's lessons in other ways..I realize everyone has to figure out their way in life in their own time. The thing is, I believe Casey had the time on her hands and the opportunity afforded to her, but she never bothered to do right. Instead, she was very effectively making a career out of using and abusing everyone who crossed her path.

That said, I think you know that you and I disagree about the reasons why Casey is the way she is. Everything you stated about Cindy is exactly how I see Casey as an individual. She's disordered, maladjusted, and I'll throw in rotten to the core for good measure. Some people feel a need to find something or someone to blame it on...I am quite comfortable to lay it all on Casey. She's not a child, she hasn't been for a very long time. She had CHOICES and she made them. She CHOSE what to do or not do, and how to do it. Ultimately her supreme selfishness and unconscionable deeds cost little Caylee her life.


It's always been my belief that Cindy loved little Caylee more than life itself; and to Casey, the little girl was a burden. Therein was Cindy's greatest conflict- she very much wanted to help her daughter, she knew Caylee needed her mother, but also knew that Casey was not managing her life in the best interests of her child. I believe Cindy tried to manage this sad situation the best she could for Caylee's sake. She could've thrown Casey out and taken legal steps, but I honestly think she feared Casey. In hindsight, I am sure she wish she had kicked her out.

Yes, Cindy put herself out there...but I believe she did it for CAYLEE, not so much Casey. I realize she said and did things that didn't put her in the best light as all of this unfolded, but I believe her one desperate wish was for Caylee to be alive, and that is what propelled her behavior. She was never going to stop until someone proved otherwise. To admit the horrible truth was to admit little Caylee was dead and gone. What dreadful, unthinkable things she has and will continue to have to learn to live with...her daughter did this. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

I am aware that there are good people who come from dysfunctional homes, we have discussed that here many times. I do not believe that all "Casey's" are produced via "nurture" but I do believe that this Casey was.

Cindy allowed her daughter to get away with criminal behaviors and fake jobs over and over again, enabling her to "make a career out of using and abusing everyone who crossed her path." She is her mother, she should have held her accountable YEARS ago! Caylee is not and should not be an excuse for Casey to get away with bad behavior. As you said, Casey had a choice, so did Cindy.. we see where it lead.

I also do not believe that Cindy thought caylee was alive while you believe she thought she was alive. ...Until the bones were found. We see Cindy in a very different light! We do agree however that Casey is the one responsible if she indeed murdered her daughter.. that isn't Cindy's fault.

I am sorry if this thread upsets you, I really am but I am not going to stop posting here. I respect your opinion of Cindy but I do not agree with it.. and that's OK- we don't all always have to agree! :blowkiss:

 

[eddeva]

(personality disorders are defence mechanisms against "forbidden" emotions)

OLG, i apologize for being utterly clueless here, if you have the time could you please explain (slowly and w/o big words) what forbidden emotions are?

 

[OneLostGrl]

I have to say I somewhat agree with icherish here. I don't really see what Cindy's possible issues have to do with this. I can understand the need to figure out what happened as prevention efforts, but I don't think that is what this is. In fact, if Cindy was actually diagnosed with mental illness, there would be nothing to understand. We could just look at it and say "oh it must be genetic".

I think instead the point of this thread is to try to explain away some of Cindy's behavior. I think if we can "prove" to ourselves that Cindy is mentally ill, then that makes it easier for us to accept some of the things she has done.

The problem with this line of thinking is Cindy has been faced with a situation that no one else has, so I don't think there is anyway to "justify" her behavior, and more importantly I don't think there is a need to. There would be no previous examples for her to look at to say "oh this is the right thing to do" or "this is how I should handle this" and by the same token, nothing we can compare this to in order to say she acted differently than others. To the contrary, she has acted just like other mothers with children who committed horrible crimes.

I still believe that Cindy has been a grieving mother and grandmother from the beginning. Grief causes odd behavior, and I think that is the ONLY reason that she has acted the way she has.

Just my opinion...

Grief doesn't cause lying and sneaking and covering up. How a person handles themselves in a crisis reveals MUCH about who they are. And I disagree (big time) that Cindy is acting like other mothers who's children commited crimes. I have followed crimes here and I have never seen anything like this from family members.

 

[icherish]

I personally believe that the purpose and the point of this entire thread is just this: a child has been murdered by a young, attractive, middle-class female who seemingly "had it all" and we, as a group, are simply making an attempt to come to some kind of understanding of how such a thing came to be.

It is hard to say what Cindy actually is in the "eyes of the law" at this juncture. We know that she has not been charged with any crime, but that does not mean that none was committed. We do know that LE has it on record that Cindy was being anything BUT helpful in all of her story-changing that she was doing and we know that she and George offered to "come clean" in exchange for immunity. This is not what a "victim" does. A true "victim" does not have anything that they need to clean up. They are a victim-plain and simple. This-not so simple.

The thread about Lee was moved for exactly those reasons-no proof, pure speculation, etc. This is hardly the case with Cindy. There is no reason that we should have to speculate much of anything about Cindy as she has put it all out there in the media and in her interviews and statements. By her own actions she has called up this question of her own mental state.

Why it matters is so simple: it could happen again. It could happen to someone you know or to someone that I know. It could happen in our town, or in our neighborhood. For some here, there is even the potential that it could happen to them. It matters so much that awareness of these conditions be raised so that there can be some kind of recognition-some type of early recognition-some warning signs that can be noted and acted upon in order to hopefully prevent it from happening the next time. Mental illness is real and it exists in people that we all know-people that we have relationships with-people that we work with-people that we love. Its mere existence is what makes it matter so much that it be dissected and analyzed and examined down to its bare roots in the hope that some change can be effected in some life somewhere because someone was made aware of its existence. It may not bring about more justice for Caylee, but it may be an avenue of avoiding there be a need for justice for some other victim in the future.

I firmly believe that if we plant seeds of awareness and debunk the "shame" that is so entangled in the web of mental illness that it is possible and even probable that we may make a difference. It may not show in this case, and we may never even know that the difference was made, but someone may be reading who has someone like Cindy or anyone that we happen to be discussing, and they may be having some issues because of it and they may find hope in their situation by something that we said-something that we saw-something that we understood.

And also, Cindy just makes it so dad-blamed easy! lol...just kidding...kinda'.:liar:

I agree that there are lessons to be learned here. I am not defending Cindy's every action. Her mental state has not been good since Caylee disappeared, that is for certain. But to suggest that her having a mental illness is the cause of Casey's fall from grace is cruel and even irresponsible, imo. If she really does have a mental illness, she's routinely mocked and vilified for it. Is that right? Does that help anything, or anyone? No, I think not.
Whatever the case, I feel in my heart Cindy is now a broken woman. She deeply cared for and loved Caylee, and her daughter Casey...I just can't find it in my heart to believe Casey truly loved either one of them.

Thank you for your insights, magic. I may not agree with all of your points, but I like the way you present them. :blowkiss:

 

[sunflowerchick]

Grief doesn't cause lying and sneaking and covering up. How a person handles themselves in a crisis reveals MUCH about who they are. And I disagree (big time) that Cindy is acting like other mothers who's children commited crimes. I have followed crimes here and I have never seen anything like this from family members.

I can think of one case in particular where a husband killed his wife and unborn child. Doesn't his mother still support him? I know that some of Cindy's actions have been wrong, and by all means I don't defend her. I just don't see how trying to diagnose her as being mentally ill helps.

Grief can cause lying and sneaking and covering up if she is grieving for Casey as well as Caylee. She may be grieving for the loss of innocence of her precious daughter, and may be trying to protect that. I don't condone it or agree with it, but I can see where it might explain some of the things she has done.

 

[OneLostGrl]

OLG, i apologize for being utterly clueless here, if you have the time could you please explain (slowly and w/o big words) what forbidden emotions are?

It's just their own "triggers". What's upsetting to them, what causes them to need the unhealthy coping mechanisms in the first place. Be it, memories of sexual abuse or fear of abandonment or anxiety, low self-esteem, etc.. The things you don't want to feel so you stuff it away and pretend they are not real..

 

[OneLostGrl]

I can think of one case in particular where a husband killed his wife and unborn child. Doesn't his mother still support him? I know that some of Cindy's actions have been wrong, and by all means I don't defend her. I just don't see how trying to diagnose her as being mentally ill helps.

Grief can cause lying and sneaking and covering up if she is grieving for Casey as well as Caylee. She may be grieving for the loss of innocence of her precious daughter, and may be trying to protect that. I don't condone it or agree with it, but I can see where it might explain some of the things she has done.

May I remind you that this is not new behavior for Cindy? She has been at this for quite some time - her behaviors have nothing to do with grief, nothing to do with the murder.. and everything to do with Cindy's behaviors.

Her attempt at covering up for Casey (once again!) is her compensation to her so she can rid herself of guilt.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree that there are some serious issues with George as well. As soon as this thread started I thought-what about George? because he certainly is no "Mr. Normality" to say the least. He could not have simply overlooked everything that he has overlooked if he did not have issues of his own...but I guess we can discuss his in the general psych thread about them all, huh? :angel:

We should just make the entire Caylee forum a psych thread. LOL J/K

 

[eddeva]

We should just make the entire Caylee forum a psych thread. LOL J/K

tbh it kinda is already

 

[OneLostGrl]

I personally believe that the purpose and the point of this entire thread is just this: a child has been murdered by a young, attractive, middle-class female who seemingly "had it all" and we, as a group, are simply making an attempt to come to some kind of understanding of how such a thing came to be.

It is hard to say what Cindy actually is in the "eyes of the law" at this juncture. We know that she has not been charged with any crime, but that does not mean that none was committed. We do know that LE has it on record that Cindy was being anything BUT helpful in all of her story-changing that she was doing and we know that she and George offered to "come clean" in exchange for immunity. This is not what a "victim" does. A true "victim" does not have anything that they need to clean up. They are a victim-plain and simple. This-not so simple.

The thread about Lee was moved for exactly those reasons-no proof, pure speculation, etc. This is hardly the case with Cindy. There is no reason that we should have to speculate much of anything about Cindy as she has put it all out there in the media and in her interviews and statements. By her own actions she has called up this question of her own mental state.

Why it matters is so simple: it could happen again. It could happen to someone you know or to someone that I know. It could happen in our town, or in our neighborhood. For some here, there is even the potential that it could happen to them. It matters so much that awareness of these conditions be raised so that there can be some kind of recognition-some type of early recognition-some warning signs that can be noted and acted upon in order to hopefully prevent it from happening the next time. Mental illness is real and it exists in people that we all know-people that we have relationships with-people that we work with-people that we love. Its mere existence is what makes it matter so much that it be dissected and analyzed and examined down to its bare roots in the hope that some change can be effected in some life somewhere because someone was made aware of its existence. It may not bring about more justice for Caylee, but it may be an avenue of avoiding there be a need for justice for some other victim in the future.

I firmly believe that if we plant seeds of awareness and debunk the "shame" that is so entangled in the web of mental illness that it is possible and even probable that we may make a difference. It may not show in this case, and we may never even know that the difference was made, but someone may be reading who has someone like Cindy or anyone that we happen to be discussing, and they may be having some issues because of it and they may find hope in their situation by something that we said-something that we saw-something that we understood.

And also, Cindy just makes it so dad-blamed easy! lol...just kidding...kinda'.:liar:

:clap: :clap:

Excellent post!!

 

[OneLostGrl]

tbh it kinda is already

lol, yeah..

 

[magic-cat]

I agree that there are lessons to be learned here. I am not defending Cindy's every action. Her mental state has not been good since Caylee disappeared, that is for certain. But to suggest that her having a mental illness is the cause of Casey's fall from grace is cruel and even irresponsible, imo. If she really does have a mental illness, she's routinely mocked and vilified for it. Is that right? Does that help anything, or anyone? No, I think not.
Whatever the case, I feel in my heart Cindy is now a broken woman. She deeply cared for and loved Caylee, and her daughter Casey...I just can't find it in my heart to believe Casey truly loved either one of them.

Thank you for your insights, magic. I may not agree with all of your points, but I like the way you present them. :blowkiss:

Right back at ya! :blowkiss:

The mocking and the vilification does not help Cindy, certainly, but it just might help others who may be engaged in the same sort of behaviors to RECOGNIZE THEM and to deviate from them into some other more constructive behaviors. For instance: Cindy says lying is not a crime, in reference to the abundant supply of lies on hand told by Casey. She then proceeds to lie at every turn for the next six months or so about anything and everything that she can possibly confuse. We, here, call attention to this repeatedly. Perhaps someone who has the same lying issues who may be reading might think-hmmm...maybe I really should try to be more honest, huh? in dialogue with themselves of course...and on and on like that. We never know who is going to be affected by our words, and that is a good reason to choose them wisely.

I for one know someone who is very much like Cindy, or what she appears to be from what we have learned of her from her own actions and her lack of actions, from her interviews with the police, with the FBI, with countless media outlets, and her behavior in public and what we have learned from others-including from her son, her husband, and her own mother and brother and so I have a personal insight into her that some others could possibly benefit from. I know we hate to admit it, but sometimes, bad parents DO make the child-although not always, and according to my 17 year old NEVER! She completely disagrees with any affect-effect or push-pull or any of what she calls the "excuses" for doing something that one knows is wrong-regardless of ones upbringing. To her EVERYTHING is about choices and no mental weakness, emotional weakness or any kind of problems or hardships figure in to it. She and I do not agree on the subject and debate it frequently. She says I would be a behaviorist I think if I were a psychologist and she is a humanist? That may not be right-I am bleary eyed and tired, but my main point is that everyone is not going to agree on if we should be discussing any of this and certainly not on how we go about discussing it. We ARE pretty brutally honest here, and sometimes that is hard to swallow I know. And we are all just trying to do our part to bring on the enlightenment and chase the spiders away...

Not that Cindy is a spider...but if she was which one would she be?

 

[icherish]

I have to say I somewhat agree with icherish here. I don't really see what Cindy's possible issues have to do with this. I can understand the need to figure out what happened as prevention efforts, but I don't think that is what this is. In fact, if Cindy was actually diagnosed with mental illness, there would be nothing to understand. We could just look at it and say "oh it must be genetic".

I think instead the point of this thread is to try to explain away some of Cindy's behavior. I think if we can "prove" to ourselves that Cindy is mentally ill, then that makes it easier for us to accept some of the things she has done.
The problem with this line of thinking is Cindy has been faced with a situation that no one else has, so I don't think there is anyway to "justify" her behavior, and more importantly I don't think there is a need to. There would be no previous examples for her to look at to say "oh this is the right thing to do" or "this is how I should handle this" and by the same token, nothing we can compare this to in order to say she acted differently than others. To the contrary, she has acted just like other mothers with children who committed horrible crimes.

I still believe that Cindy has been a grieving mother and grandmother from the beginning. Grief causes odd behavior, and I think that is the ONLY reason that she has acted the way she has.

Just my opinion...

I bolded-
I agree with this. Great post.

 

[icherish]

I am aware that there are good people who come from dysfunctional homes, we have discussed that here many times. I do not believe that all "Casey's" are produced via "nurture" but I do believe that this Casey was.

Cindy allowed her daughter to get away with criminal behaviors and fake jobs over and over again, enabling her to "make a career out of using and abusing everyone who crossed her path." She is her mother, she should have held her accountable YEARS ago! Caylee is not and should not be an excuse for Casey to get away with bad behavior. As you said, Casey had a choice, so did Cindy.. we see where it lead.

I also do not believe that Cindy thought caylee was alive while you believe she thought she was alive. ...Until the bones were found. We see Cindy in a very different light! We do agree however that Casey is the one responsible if she indeed murdered her daughter.. that isn't Cindy's fault.

I am sorry if this thread upsets you, I really am but I am not going to stop posting here. I respect your opinion of Cindy but I do not agree with it.. and that's OK- we don't all always have to agree! :blowkiss:

Not expecting you to stop posting here. :blowkiss: As far as I'm concerned you are as free to post as I am free to scroll past if I want. (and I usually do) I just decided to post because the thread resurfaced I'm trying to understand the purpose of it. I respect your opinion as well, and it's nice to know we can agree on a few points.

Cindy may have tried to make her accountable for deviant conduct earlier in life. How can we say she didn't? If such conduct becomes a pervasive pattern in a young person, it is VERY difficult to deal with as they become adults. I think when Casey became an adult and she continued down her crooked path, they were at a loss with how to deal with her, especially since they had Caylee to consider. Not saying that's an EXCUSE...but a factor. I'm guessing Casey was slowly sucking the life right out of them...knowing that people like Casey have a special propensity for doing that. I'm sure they never thought for a moment she'd hurt Caylee though.

 

[magic-cat]

In all of our lives, and I mean every single one of us, there are things that we do that would not be considered "normal" by any certain segment of the population. Everyone has their "quirks" certainly and there are no exceptions to this rule. None of us is a perfect and shining example of what a perfect human would be like.

BUT

there is a standard by which the guidelines are drawn ...and when more of your behaviors are in the unhealthy group of characteristics, then you move out of just being a normal quirky person and into a deviant group.

NOW

there are many of us who will feel perfectly at home in one of the "deviant" groups or another, and there is not a thing wrong with that. It is the nature of the beast.

BUT

there are those who do not recognize that they fit quite nicely into the deviant groups and that they actually are the standard by which the deviant group has been measured.

When we, the "normal" kooks see someone who is so obviously off the charts NOT normal and yet seems to exist in complete denial that they even have any faults, well, it gets us riled a bit...

BECAUSE

recognizing ones own problems is the first step in taking action to solve those problems. And when one who has become as much of a public figure as Cindy has goes about in such complete and utter denial of what is truth and what is fact, then it is apparent that no steps are being taken in this individuals life to cure the deficit, and a deficit that is not cured is surely growing larger.

SO

The moral of the story IS don't go out of your way to show the world your problems if you do not want solutions presented...:angel:

 

[magic-cat]

I realize I have over-simplified some things for the sake of uhmmm, simplicity! but I think the gist of what I am saying is this:

Casey Anthony is and was a liar and a thief.
Her parents knew this-especially Cindy, who was the main "breadwinner" for their home.
Rather than allow her to face the consequences early on and continually for her illegal behaviors-another road was taken. That road is the road that brought us all here, unfortunately.

The road that was taken was to pay her way out of all those illegal activities. Pay off the credit cards that she illicitly got in her mom's name. Pay off the bank where she stole from her grandparents account. Let it go by that she stole a $4,000 deposit from her parents. And on and on like that. They could have engaged in HEALTHY behaviors, and yes, these might have been more difficult, but the right road usually is. Had she been challenged to face her own actions in the form of consequences early on and continually, I seriously doubt we would even be here discussing her at all. She would have gotten into legal troubles long ago and with the law breathing down her back she may have thought twice before murdering her daughter or otherwise bringing harm to her.

And this "wearing down" that I have heard lamented so many times before. One cannot be "overcome of evil but must overcome evil with good" and this is straight from the big JC himself. We cannot simply bow to evil even in our children, and MUST struggle to overcome it no matter how wearing or tearing it is for us to do so. Nobody ever said parenting was easy, and I am here to tell you it ain't easy, and there are struggles galore, and we MUST engage in the struggles and not simply succumb because we feel "numbed" by a child who continually misbehaves. That child MUST be brought to order in one way or another, and if our "ways" are not working, then we must seek outside interference for the sake of the child and for our own mental well being. :croc:

 

[costalpilot]

Cindy is trying to play the "grieving Grandmother" but In my opinion she should be charged with obstructing justice & withholding evidence for the following reasons

I believe Cindy lied to LE about the events leading up to Casey leaving the Anthony home on June 15th

I believe Cindy lied about Casey needing the shovel to remove Bamboo June 18th

I believe Cindy lied when she told the media that the car had "No Odor" until after it was towed

I believe Cindy knowingly destroyed evidence related to Caylee's disappearance on July 15th

I believe Cindy lied under oath during the bond hearing when she said ...."after Casey graduated high school"

I believe Cindy is encouraging LE to pursue Jessie Grund as a suspect when she knows he is innocent

I believe Cindy is deliberately embellishing false sightings of Caylee

I believe Cindy is deliberately withholding additional information from LE that is vital to this case

and many, many other lies as well

the apple doesn't fall.....

 

[dreamerlin]

I have refrained from posting in this thread every time it surfaces, but I just have to ask a few questions.

First- can someone please explain to me the purpose and point of this thread? Cindy is not charged with a crime. In the eyes of the law she is one of the many victims in this case. I thought the MODS at WS at least saw her as such? If they do, why do they allow this thread? The speculative, ultimately proven-false Lee/paternity/incest thread went straight to the parking lot, as it should have. What is different about this one?

I'm simply trying to understand how whether or not Cindy has has a mental condition matters? How does dissecting, critiquing, comparing to others and arm-chair-diagnosing this grief-stricken grandmother with mental and/or personality disorders important in seeking justice for Caylee? No flames, please- I think these are legitimate questions, I ask them respectfully and I'd appreciate the same. Thanks.

I see it as a case study. There is much to be learned. And from learning comes the benefits of understanding and perhaps change in the hope that the death of this small child will not go in vain.

 

[eddeva]

To the contrary, she has acted just like other mothers with children who committed horrible crimes.

*resp. snipped.
i'm afraid i have to disagree w/ you on this point. yes i can think of one, possibly even two mothers whose children were eventually found guilty of murder and who conducted themselves in a bizarre fashion, but this in no way makes cindy anthony the jane average of her genre, indeed she may be the lone guman atop the bell tower