Casey & Family Psychological Profile #6

[ChaChaCha]

There is a ton of material on Diane - the similarities to KC are eerie, although Diane was older and had more children to dispose of... she blamed a bushy-haired stranger (there were no straighteners in 1983) ... if you google her name it will come up many times. She still denies the shooting to this day, and was apparently argumentative at the parole hearing (denied) I scooped from...

http://mydeathspace.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17222.0%20-%2048k%20-

I apologize for not inserting the link the first time...

 

[Searchfortruth]

Hoping I am not too far off-topic here. Remembering the case of Diane Downs several years ago. Before she tried to kill her three children (two survived) her behaviour too was manic. Realizing that her children stood in the way of the life and the man she wanted, she calmly put them in her car and executed her plan to murder them and obtain her freedom. You may recall the book "Small Sacrifices" and the subsequent movie with Farah Fawcett. Here is an excerpt regarding Diane being up for parole (You can see a few passages that fall in line with the Anthony case...) - especially her father's reaction....

EUGENE, Ore., - On May 19, 1983, Diane Downs pulled her car to the side of a rural road in Springfield and shot her three children ages 3, 7, and 8.

The 7-year-old, Cheryl, died and 8-year-old Christie survived. The youngest child, Danny, was paralyzed. Downs was pregnant with a fourth child.

Casey reminds me of Diane D., the two are very much alike. I remember watching the movie about Diane, it was creepy how detached and unemotional she was. I remember she escaped once and was placed in a maximum security prison after that. She and Casey are a real threat to the outside world and for that reason, and because of the children they harmed, they should be locked up forever.

 

[QuietStorm]

Hoping I am not too far off-topic here. Remembering the case of Diane Downs several years ago. Before she tried to kill her three children (two survived) her behaviour too was manic. Realizing that her children stood in the way of the life and the man she wanted, she calmly put them in her car and executed her plan to murder them and obtain her freedom. You may recall the book "Small Sacrifices" and the subsequent movie with Farah Fawcett. Here is an excerpt regarding Diane being up for parole (You can see a few passages that fall in line with the Anthony case...) - especially her father's reaction....

EUGENE, Ore., - On May 19, 1983, Diane Downs pulled her car to the side of a rural road in Springfield and shot her three children ages 3, 7, and 8.

The 7-year-old, Cheryl, died and 8-year-old Christie survived. The youngest child, Danny, was paralyzed. Downs was pregnant with a fourth child.

http://mydeathspace.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17222.0%20-%2048k%20-

Another note on Diane Downs: Her version of the killer, the mysterious bushy-haired stranger (BHS) is so similar to KC's Zanny the Nanny story.

No one in the DA's office, especially Fred Hugi, believed that there had been an aggressor on Old Mohawk Road. Since the beginning of time, wrongdoers have used mythical abductors and thugs as alibis to cover their own or a close friend's crime. In law enforcement jargon, these make-believe violators are niched under the all-encompassing term bushy-haired stranger, "the guy who isn't there," says author Ann Rule, "the man the defendant claims is really responsible...Of course the BHS can never be produced in court."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/downs/2b.html

 

[BuzzieCat]

Casey reminds me of Diane D., the two are very much alike. I remember watching the movie about Diane, it was creepy how detached and unemotional she was. I remember she escaped once and was placed in a maximum security prison after that. She and Casey are a real threat to the outside world and for that reason, and because of the children they harmed, they should be locked up forever.

It really galls me how women like Casey don't really want children yet can't be bothered to at least use birth control. I wonder if in Casey's case she might have thought that getting pregnant would be a fun and easy way to get Cindy's goat. Have a kid, embarrass Cindy, and be pretty sure that Cindy would do the babysitting and monetary support of the child. Or she probably didn't think at all about how it would affect HER after the baby was born at all, did she?

IMO Cindy wanted to take care of this herself, just like the stealing, and she is ticked that she called 911 and got LE involved. Now she can't undo it and she's having to answer questions and have her private life exposed. And I mean I can understand and sympathize that she's embarrassed about Casey's stealing and whatever else being exposed to the world. Even a non-narcissist would have to be pretty embarrassed. I just wish she and GA would realize it's not about appearances, it's not about protecting Casey, it's about getting to the bottom of what happened. IMO Casey can't be allowed to get off scot free and have another baby!

 

[Brini]

If any of what I said is true, I don't think she was at it that long to have developed a true physical addiction (Jonesing as you say). She liked being thin and the feeling the drug was giving her. She was very thin upon her arrest. Obviously I'm theorizing.

I'm not suggesting that there are not other contributing factors to why KC is the way she is but drug use could have contributed to her neglect of Caylee. Her friends all seem to testify that she had changed or withdrew from them recently.

Some of them said she was always the same superficial, mendacious person, all her life, too.

 

[Brini]

I agree with you. I've wondered from the start WHY Cindy never got help for her? Was it total denial or shame? She wanted to believe she had the perfect daughter?

Cindy has been in denial over Casey's mental health for years and years and since SHE, Cindy, is the one in the health care profession, it would have been easy for the rest of the family to just leave things up to her to handle, which of course she didn't.

KC has a personality disorder. That's not actually a mental illness-- it's a characrterological and maturity deficiency.

And, it's not amenable to psychotherapy, at this point.

 

[Brini]

Hoping I am not too far off-topic here. Remembering the case of Diane Downs several years ago. Before she tried to kill her three children (two survived) her behaviour too was manic. Realizing that her children stood in the way of the life and the man she wanted, she calmly put them in her car and executed her plan to murder them and obtain her freedom. You may recall the book "Small Sacrifices" and the subsequent movie with Farah Fawcett. Here is an excerpt regarding Diane being up for parole (You can see a few passages that fall in line with the Anthony case...) - especially her father's reaction....

EUGENE, Ore., - On May 19, 1983, Diane Downs pulled her car to the side of a rural road in Springfield and shot her three children ages 3, 7, and 8.

The 7-year-old, Cheryl, died and 8-year-old Christie survived. The youngest child, Danny, was paralyzed. Downs was pregnant with a fourth child.

http://mydeathspace.com/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=17222.0%20-%2048k%20-

Yep. KC and Diane. Two peas in a rotted pod.

 

[Elysium]

My theroies and opinions (some may sound harsh) but, I'm thinking out loud.

I think Casey has sociopathic/antisocial tendencies and it appears to have started after Caylee was born, perhaps triggered by post partum depression, BUT we really don't know what Casey's behavior was like growing up. She could have been like this before Caylee's birth. We don't know why she dropped out of high school for example.

When I read what the female prison guard said about the day Casey found out that a body had been found on suburban drive, I thought the hyperventilation could be explained as a normal reaction of a grieving mother, after all, they were saying it could be Caylee and Casey was listening to the T.V. and watching while waiting for Psych eval. but, after when she was talking to the guard waiting to go back to her room, out of nowhere she started talking about football! That suggests to me that she has a method of coping that takes her out of the situation and closes her mind off to whatever it is she doesn't want to face and I don't think she can always control it. I also think she has the capacity to make herself believe what she wants to be true. I've often thought that there are two sides to Casey, one in which she knows exactly what she is doing and what she had done and one in which she makes her own reality.

However, she is high functioning, meaning, she knows how to appear mostly normal. She knows how to cover things up. She puts on an act of being upset over Caylee's dissapearance/death, but can't keep it up for long. She clearly does not care about the feelings of others, she lacks empathy but knows how to fake it. She lies constantly and her parents feed into those lies or at least let her get away with them. She shows no remorse. She has a habit of acting completely innapropriately (smiling & joking in court, laughing in interviews, continuing to lie after she's been confronted with her lies)

I remember two of her friends, Annie and another friend (can't remember who right now) said that Casey had told them she wanted to get psychiatric help late 2006/early 2007 and in fact, wanted to be institutionalized as she felt she was having a "breakdown". Annie also said that Casey began to lie a lot. Melina, another of Casey's friends, said that after Caylee was born Casey lied a lot and also, it seemed that Casey made herself believe her lies. I can't believe no one in Casey's family noticed her drastic change in behavior and tried to get her help. Or perhaps, that would mean that Cindy's "perfect" family was falling apart so denial served her senses much better.

Ok, let's suppose for a minute that Kiomarie was correct and Casey did want to give the child up for adoption at birth because she felt she was too young. Yeah, she should have been on birth control but living under Cindy's roof, it was probably next to impossible.

So, Cindy was against the adoption plan and promised that she would help take care of Caylee, not to worry etc. So, Casey has Caylee and her life changes dramatically. She's no longer "free". She has to make up lies about where she is and what she is doing because Cindy has tremendous power over her. As most of Casey's old friends say, Cindy was constantly calling Casey when she was out, yelling at her, telling her to come home..etc. Also, they say that Cindy was taking over as Mother to Caylee or acting as if she was the mother and that Casey was jealous. I don't find it too hard to believe that Cindy was over-bearing with Casey regarding Caylee. I also think she's been over-bearing with everyone else in the family.

Cindy pretends not to know Casey's pregnant up until when Casey tells her, which is at least 7 months along. Why did Casey wait so late to discuss it? Did she really intend to give the baby up for adoption and somehow Cindy convinced her not to? Or did Cindy threaten her not to? Casey's old friends say that Casey was a good mother and she was not a trouble maker in high school. It seems she started breaking down in December 2006/January 2007. Was the pressure of having Caylee and answering to Cindy triggering mental health problems? Casey began lying about working (Sports Authority) and lying to friends about where she was, she was weaving bits of truth into her lies and seemed like she believed her own lies. She was resentful of Cindy for taking away her "freedom", she wanted to be able to go out with friends without Cindy harrassing her, she wasn't getting along with George and she began stealing.

She started hanging out with a new crowd and using drugs and her behavior got worse a nd worse. Lost touch with most of her old friends. Constant fighting at home. Possibly she began resenting Caylee, thinking she was the root of all her problems. She began to hate Cindy and wanted to be free of her and George. By the Spring of 2008, she bouncing around from boyfriend to boyfriend looking for love, has her family convinced she has a full time job and was seriously neglecting Caylee. Cindy wants custody of Caylee but Casey will not let that happen. By June, she has hatched her plan (not sure what-- but I think it had more to do with getting rid of Cindy than Caylee) but, an unexpected fight with Cindy threw Casey over the edge and she took Caylee's life and fled. However, she never left the area. But, as far as her family was concerned, she was "missing" (not "working) and they knew something was wrong. I think guilt kept Cindy from reaching out for help in locating Casey and Caylee--either that or she wanted to protect her family "image". See, Cindy DEMANDS things be the way SHE wants them to be.
Lee knew Casey was in town early in July. George had seen Casey in June. Did that family really believe Casey's lies--that she was working out of town? No, I don't think so. So, why not call the police and track down Casey's license plate number? Why? Again, Cindy. Even on the day they picked up the car from the tow yard, she didn't want to call police. And then she goes home and washes Casey's pants and God knows what else she did to that car. WHY? The only reasons would be 1) Cindy's a dumbazz 2) Cindy knew Casey did something wrong and wanted to protect her and 3) Cindy didn't want the cops to find out something.....some skeletons in the closet.

Casey may have been in denial of what she had done BUT she knew what she had done which is why she lied and changed stories so much. That's not insanity. I believe insanity is being completely detached from reality. I think Casey has some problems with reality and that she probably needs serious psychiatric care BUT, that does not mean that she should not be punished for what she has done. AND, she needs to be locked up for the rest of her life, if not put to death (although, I bet they will study her for awhile).

Cindy needs some corrective action as well. I think she should be prosecuted for lying to police, messing with evidence and whatever else she has done to try to help cover for Casey. I also believe she has mental issues but knows right from wrong. George also has mental issues but knows right from wrong BUT he was the only one to at least tell the truth (at first anyway) until Cindy got to him--that man needs to get a new life and grow some balls. AND then there is Lee. Yes, he is a liar--no doubt about it. He might do well with a little time under his belt as well. These people seem to forget innocent little Caylee, who loved them all unconditionally. Cindy really tried to make this screwed up family appear to be a good family but the only good thing that ever happened to this bunch of loons was Caylee and they failed her BUT she will get the justice she deserves.

Where do we draw the line between criminally insane/insanity defense and just plain murder? I've studied psychology in college and I know there is no black and white. There are hundreds of varying degrees to hundreds of different types of mental illness. This may sound harsh, but I don't believe in the insanity defense. No matter what, the person still murdered, still took a life. That person should be in prison or dead.



RIP Sweet Caylee

 

[songline]

the person still murdered, still took a life. That person should be in prison or in a mental hospital;
and I do not believe that rehabilitating people who kill works.
I belive "Life" is what she will be getting.
I do not think that her parents think she is coming out, trying with all thier might to help her,
but I do think that they hope she gets protection, I do not think GA thinks she is coming out.

 

[Issi]

Not to sound like a jerk, but I maintain that the legal definitions of insanity need to be kept at the forefront, and unless someone is a mental health professional, any diagnoses of KC's mental condition are pure speculation.

That being said.. Oh yeah, she's bat-s@#% cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

 

[songline]

Not to sound like a jerk, but I maintain that the legal definitions of insanity need to be kept at the forefront, and unless someone is a mental health professional, any diagnoses of KC's mental condition are pure speculation.

That being said.. Oh yeah, she's bat-s@#% cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

I am laughing at your last line but it is not funny.
becuse "normal" she is NOT.

 

[Issi]

I am laughing at your last line but it is not funny.
becuse "normal" she is NOT.

Oh.. certainly not. Ol' girl ain't right... that much is certain.

I guess it's just been bugging me that the public have been throwing around certain psychological terms to define people that they aren't qualified to label one as.

Granted.. I know people here do a lot of homework, and they may very well be correct. Don't get me wrong there.

 

[Jolynna]

It really galls me how women like Casey don't really want children yet can't be bothered to at least use birth control. I wonder if in Casey's case she might have thought that getting pregnant would be a fun and easy way to get Cindy's goat. Have a kid, embarrass Cindy, and be pretty sure that Cindy would do the babysitting and monetary support of the child. Or she probably didn't think at all about how it would affect HER after the baby was born at all, did she?

IMO Cindy wanted to take care of this herself, just like the stealing, and she is ticked that she called 911 and got LE involved. Now she can't undo it and she's having to answer questions and have her private life exposed. And I mean I can understand and sympathize that she's embarrassed about Casey's stealing and whatever else being exposed to the world. Even a non-narcissist would have to be pretty embarrassed. I just wish she and GA would realize it's not about appearances, it's not about protecting Casey, it's about getting to the bottom of what happened. IMO Casey can't be allowed to get off scot free and have another baby!

Casey and Diane Downs didn't use birth control because they thought a baby would FILL up the holes inside...make them fill complete.

Then when a baby (or lots of babies) didn't feel the emptiness, Casey and Ms. Downs thought a *man* would complete them.

But, now the babies were not only not making them feel good, the kids were a LOT of trouble and actually standing in the way of getting the *man* (and dream of total fulfillment).

For all of Casey's "problems" she was rational and coherent. She was able to skillfully fool family, a boyfriend and friends. It is obvious her motives were selfish...Mrs. Lazzario, Mrs. Tony Lazzario, Mrs. Casey Lazzario.

I don't see insanity as an option for Casey.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Oh.. certainly not. Ol' girl ain't right... that much is certain.

I guess it's just been bugging me that the public have been throwing around certain psychological terms to define people that they aren't qualified to label one as.

Granted.. I know people here do a lot of homework, and they may very well be correct. Don't get me wrong there.

All the professionals on TV have noted the same thing and some here are professionals who are qualified to make their observations .

It is not hard for not only a professional, but even a lay person to recognize anti social behaviors. The DSM-IV lists the symptoms of the behaviors and the number which need to be present for a diagnosis. KC could have written the criteria for it. The interesting thing to me is so could Cindy.

The thing I see different in Cindy is she appears (at least on the surface) to be in the throngs of an active addiction. The erratic emotional responses indicate some type of addiction in my mind. I am now wondering what KC meant when she said at first that she hadn't told anything, and for Cindy not to worry.

 

[Brini]

My theroies and opinions (some may sound harsh) but, I'm thinking out loud.

I think Casey has sociopathic/antisocial tendencies and it appears to have started after Caylee was born, perhaps triggered by post partum depression, BUT we really don't know what Casey's behavior was like growing up. She could have been like this before Caylee's birth. We don't know why she dropped out of high school for example.

When I read what the female prison guard said about the day Casey found out that a body had been found on suburban drive, I thought the hyperventilation could be explained as a normal reaction of a grieving mother, after all, they were saying it could be Caylee and Casey was listening to the T.V. and watching while waiting for Psych eval. but, after when she was talking to the guard waiting to go back to her room, out of nowhere she started talking about football! That suggests to me that she has a method of coping that takes her out of the situation and closes her mind off to whatever it is she doesn't want to face and I don't think she can always control it. I also think she has the capacity to make herself believe what she wants to be true. I've often thought that there are two sides to Casey, one in which she knows exactly what she is doing and what she had done and one in which she makes her own reality.

However, she is high functioning, meaning, she knows how to appear mostly normal. She knows how to cover things up. She puts on an act of being upset over Caylee's dissapearance/death, but can't keep it up for long. She clearly does not care about the feelings of others, she lacks empathy but knows how to fake it. She lies constantly and her parents feed into those lies or at least let her get away with them. She shows no remorse. She has a habit of acting completely innapropriately (smiling & joking in court, laughing in interviews, continuing to lie after she's been confronted with her lies)

I remember two of her friends, Annie and another friend (can't remember who right now) said that Casey had told them she wanted to get psychiatric help late 2006/early 2007 and in fact, wanted to be institutionalized as she felt she was having a "breakdown". Annie also said that Casey began to lie a lot. Melina, another of Casey's friends, said that after Caylee was born Casey lied a lot and also, it seemed that Casey made herself believe her lies. I can't believe no one in Casey's family noticed her drastic change in behavior and tried to get her help. Or perhaps, that would mean that Cindy's "perfect" family was falling apart so denial served her senses much better.

Ok, let's suppose for a minute that Kiomarie was correct and Casey did want to give the child up for adoption at birth because she felt she was too young. Yeah, she should have been on birth control but living under Cindy's roof, it was probably next to impossible.

So, Cindy was against the adoption plan and promised that she would help take care of Caylee, not to worry etc. So, Casey has Caylee and her life changes dramatically. She's no longer "free". She has to make up lies about where she is and what she is doing because Cindy has tremendous power over her. As most of Casey's old friends say, Cindy was constantly calling Casey when she was out, yelling at her, telling her to come home..etc. Also, they say that Cindy was taking over as Mother to Caylee or acting as if she was the mother and that Casey was jealous. I don't find it too hard to believe that Cindy was over-bearing with Casey regarding Caylee. I also think she's been over-bearing with everyone else in the family.

Cindy pretends not to know Casey's pregnant up until when Casey tells her, which is at least 7 months along. Why did Casey wait so late to discuss it? Did she really intend to give the baby up for adoption and somehow Cindy convinced her not to? Or did Cindy threaten her not to? Casey's old friends say that Casey was a good mother and she was not a trouble maker in high school. It seems she started breaking down in December 2006/January 2007. Was the pressure of having Caylee and answering to Cindy triggering mental health problems? Casey began lying about working (Sports Authority) and lying to friends about where she was, she was weaving bits of truth into her lies and seemed like she believed her own lies. She was resentful of Cindy for taking away her "freedom", she wanted to be able to go out with friends without Cindy harrassing her, she wasn't getting along with George and she began stealing.

She started hanging out with a new crowd and using drugs and her behavior got worse a nd worse. Lost touch with most of her old friends. Constant fighting at home. Possibly she began resenting Caylee, thinking she was the root of all her problems. She began to hate Cindy and wanted to be free of her and George. By the Spring of 2008, she bouncing around from boyfriend to boyfriend looking for love, has her family convinced she has a full time job and was seriously neglecting Caylee. Cindy wants custody of Caylee but Casey will not let that happen. By June, she has hatched her plan (not sure what-- but I think it had more to do with getting rid of Cindy than Caylee) but, an unexpected fight with Cindy threw Casey over the edge and she took Caylee's life and fled. However, she never left the area. But, as far as her family was concerned, she was "missing" (not "working) and they knew something was wrong. I think guilt kept Cindy from reaching out for help in locating Casey and Caylee--either that or she wanted to protect her family "image". See, Cindy DEMANDS things be the way SHE wants them to be.
Lee knew Casey was in town early in July. George had seen Casey in June. Did that family really believe Casey's lies--that she was working out of town? No, I don't think so. So, why not call the police and track down Casey's license plate number? Why? Again, Cindy. Even on the day they picked up the car from the tow yard, she didn't want to call police. And then she goes home and washes Casey's pants and God knows what else she did to that car. WHY? The only reasons would be 1) Cindy's a dumbazz 2) Cindy knew Casey did something wrong and wanted to protect her and 3) Cindy didn't want the cops to find out something.....some skeletons in the closet.

Casey may have been in denial of what she had done BUT she knew what she had done which is why she lied and changed stories so much. That's not insanity. I believe insanity is being completely detached from reality. I think Casey has some problems with reality and that she probably needs serious psychiatric care BUT, that does not mean that she should not be punished for what she has done. AND, she needs to be locked up for the rest of her life, if not put to death (although, I bet they will study her for awhile).

Cindy needs some corrective action as well. I think she should be prosecuted for lying to police, messing with evidence and whatever else she has done to try to help cover for Casey. I also believe she has mental issues but knows right from wrong. George also has mental issues but knows right from wrong BUT he was the only one to at least tell the truth (at first anyway) until Cindy got to him--that man needs to get a new life and grow some balls. AND then there is Lee. Yes, he is a liar--no doubt about it. He might do well with a little time under his belt as well. These people seem to forget innocent little Caylee, who loved them all unconditionally. Cindy really tried to make this screwed up family appear to be a good family but the only good thing that ever happened to this bunch of loons was Caylee and they failed her BUT she will get the justice she deserves.

Where do we draw the line between criminally insane/insanity defense and just plain murder? I've studied psychology in college and I know there is no black and white. There are hundreds of varying degrees to hundreds of different types of mental illness. This may sound harsh, but I don't believe in the insanity defense. No matter what, the person still murdered, still took a life. That person should be in prison or dead.



RIP Sweet Caylee

Sociopathy/Antisocial personality Disorder starts in childhood, not secondarily to post-partum depression. That's another disorder with a different etiology.

Her childhood friend, Sean, said she's been a liar and manipulator all of her life. My guess is that she's always been a liar and thief, and her family has always covered for her. There are references, for instance, to CA haveing to take thousands out of her 401K at a time, to pay people back from whom KC has stolen.

Some of her high school friends also said KC was a partyer in high school. KC used to smoke dope, for instance, and drink with other kids in the woods by the school. This was before the birth of Caylee.

One of KC's other friends said that they "planned" to unload their virginity. And that shortly after KC did so, she acquired eight lovers.

So, IF KC was a well-behaved child (something that we do not know, one way or another), it appears that adolescence was her "trigger," not Caylee's birth. Because of hormonal changes, adolescence often exacerbates sociopathic personality disorder.

We also don't know that the family was "perfect" before Caylee's birth. In fact, the family had to move of FL after GA lost all of the family's money to a scam, and the As nearly divorced. This was years before Caylee's birth.

KC doesn't believe her lies. This as evidenced by the fact that she will "own up," sometimes, when confronted. Like the time she stopped "leading" the cops to her "office," and admitted that she really did not work at Universal. If she had BELIEVED she worked at Universal, she would have led them to what she thought was her office.

KC could have been on birth control with no difficulty, had she wanted to do. Teenaged girls can go into any Planned Parenthood clinic in the country and get contraceptives, without parental approval or knowledge.

Also, had KC could not have been "forced" to keep the baby. KC had sole legal control over that decision.

If KC felt overcontrolled by CA, she could have got a job and moved out. However, being that she is an entitled sociopath, she wanted to be financially supported AND not have to work.

I agree that CA wants the family to look good, but they are all whacked. Also that the family have enabled KC all of her life, and are continuing to do so. They have always covered for her crimes. It's a lifestyle choice.

Do not agree that KC is mentally ill, or that psychiatry would help her. Sociopaths do not benefit from psychiatric treatment. They just "morph" into the "perfect patient."

I think the "black and white" in the definition of legal insanity lies in contact with reality.

As has been mentioned on this thread, before, Andrea Yates killed her children while out of touch with reality. She had a long psychiatric history. She was both delusional and hallucinating. She thought God wanted her to send her kids to heaven. In other words, she was looney as a 'toon. She was found legally insane.

KC, on the other hand, did and does know what she did was murder, and was wrong and illegal. She knew it when she planned it, when she carried it out, and is trying to evade the consequences to this day. She has never shown any symptoms of denial. She coldly killed her child to hurt CA, and to free herself up for partying hearty. She wasn't the first mother to do that, and she won't be the last. Like the above-cited Diane Downs. She didn't want a kid, and she didn't want anyone else to have her, either. That's plain, old, spite. She's not legally insane.

KC has a personality disorder. I think CA has one, too. That doesn't make them crazy. It makes them immature and of poor character development.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Not to sound like a jerk, but I maintain that the legal definitions of insanity need to be kept at the forefront, and unless someone is a mental health professional, any diagnoses of KC's mental condition are pure speculation.

That being said.. Oh yeah, she's bat-s@#% cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

"Insanity" is only a legal term.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Oh.. certainly not. Ol' girl ain't right... that much is certain.

I guess it's just been bugging me that the public have been throwing around certain psychological terms to define people that they aren't qualified to label one as.

Granted.. I know people here do a lot of homework, and they may very well be correct. Don't get me wrong there.

Just FYI, we do have a mental health professional who posts here and has pretty much agreed with those of us in the public who you judge to be unqualified.

 

[karenmamo]

Ten commandments of dysfunctional families:
The First Commandment:
Thou shalt reinterpret reality to preserve the perfect fantasy.
Sample Situation: This commandment is designed to hide family secrets. If you saw dad stagger and fall down the basement steps because he was drunk, you can't tell the truth. Instead, reality must be interpreted into an acceptable fantasy. "Daddy wasn't drunk; he simply lost his balance and tripped. Poor Daddy."

Application: Even if you see it, it's not real. You must have made a mistake. Therefore, reinterpret what you saw to make it nice and respectable. If you don't, people will think you're and we're all crazy. We wouldn't want them to think that now, would we?

Motto: Always believe the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the alcoholic truth.

The Second Commandment:
Thou shalt always send mixed messages, especially when it concerns relationships...
Sample Situation: A dominating father tells his child, "I love you. Now beat it and leave me alone."

Application: You don't really know what's true. Either your father loves you or he hates you. Since you never know for sure, you'll never be quite sure if others really mean what they say since those you loved most only spoke in mixed messages. They sounded good, but you couldn't trust them.

Motto: Avoid people and relationships. It's the safe thing to do.

The Third Commandment:
Thou shalt be an adult.
Sample Situation: Children were made to take care of their parents emotionally, physically, or sexually and to meet their parents' "childish" needs for power, attention, sex, and belonging. The children submitted to avoid physical and emotional abandonment by their parents. Children in these environments can't really remember a "childhood." For this reason, children were always expected to be adults.

Application: Being child-like and spontaneous is irresponsible and bad. You must act like an adult at all times and be responsible, even if you're only five years old.

Motto: There's no such thing as child's play. It's all serious stuff.

The Fourth Commandment:
Thou shalt keep secrets from others.
Sample Situation: Daddy has a "secret" that only he and his little girl know. Of course, she can't tell Mommy. If she does, Daddy will hurt you and Mommy might leave and never come back.

Application: A child's most important duty is to protect the image of their parents and family in the community. Watch what you say and be careful not to act funny around other people either. After all, as family we have to protect each other. If you stay quiet, you're loyal. If you can't, we won't love you.

Motto: To really love someone is to show loyalty by protecting their "secrets" at all costs.

The Fifth Commandment:
Thou shalt protect family secrets.
Sample Situation: A member of the family commits suicide. Since this is not acceptable to discuss even in the family, all pictures, memorabilia, and anything else which would indicate that this family member had ever lived here must be discarded. After all, no one in our family would commit suicide, would they???

Application: Our family doesn't have any problems, does it? Even if we did, we don't have to discuss or deal with them. After all, they're not that important. We can simply deny their existence so that we don't have to deal with the grief.

Motto: Life's too painful to have to deal with the pain and the problems. Just ignore them, they'll go away.

The Sixth Commandment:
Thou shalt not feel.
Sample Situation: A child cries because her best friend is moving away. "You shouldn't feel like that. Stop crying!" yells her mother angrily.

Application: Since any display of emotion might betray the family secrets that all is not perfect, all emotions must be repressed and numbed. After all, we're a normal family. We're not like other people who get angry, sad, or afraid.

Motto: Be respectable. After all, respectable people never show their emotions or pain..

The Seventh Commandment:
Thou shalt allow your boundaries to be violated, especially by those who "love" you.
Sample Situation: A child trying to accomplish a task continues to persist and work on it, hoping to gain a sense of accomplishment and approval. "Don't be so stubborn!" mommy says. "Just give up. There' s more important things than that to be done! Now put that stuff away and clean the house so that mommy knows you love her."

Lesson Learned: Anything you want is not worth protecting. Only those you love can tell you what is important and what's not. Quit thinking for yourself and just do what makes everyone else happy..

Motto: Because others are more valuable than you, you don't have the right to maintain your own boundaries or to make decisions.

The Seventh Commandment:
Thou shalt be hyper-vigilant
Sample Situation: A child is constantly reminded how dangerous the world is. People can't be trusted either. Therefore, stay aloof, don't get too close to anybody.

Lesson Learned: The only way to be safe in this world is to be careful and insulate yourself from others. Be careful. Always be on guard They might hurt you. If you need help, don't ask for their help. Do it yourself.

Motto: Always be on your guard. The wise person is always over prepared and distrustful of everyone and everything.

The Eighth Commandments:
Thou shalt not let anyone do anything else for you. Do it all yourself.
Sample Situation: Parents continually remind the child that no one is to be trusted. If they do something for you, they're doing it to manipulate you.

Lesson Learned: Stay aloof and don't make friends with anybody. After all, if you get too close, they'll use, hurt and abuse you. And remember this: nobody does anything for anyone unless they want something from you.

Motto: Do everything yourself.

The Ninth Commandment:
Thou shalt be perfect
Sample Situation: "Just because you got all 'A's on your report card doesn't mean that you couldn't have done better. You're lazy. Now get to work and let's see you get some more 'A+'s'!"

Lesson Learned: If it's not perfect, people won't love you. No matter how good it is, it's never good enough...but keep trying.

Motto: You're only as good as your performance and that's still not good enough!

The Tenth Commandment:
Thou shalt not forgive yourself or others.
Sample Situation: "You're always in my way, child! Why do you keep asking me to play with you? Don't you know I played with you last year? Wasn't that enough?! You ought to be ashamed of yourself! Go to your room. Don't bother me."

Lesson Learned: The only way I can be forgiven and loved is if I can earn it by being perfect. The guiltier I feel, the harder I must work to gain other's approval. If I make any mistakes, even a small one, they'll reject me or think I'm incompetent or worthless. I'm afraid I will make a mistake, I know I will, I feel so guilty. Therefore, even if I think I can do it, I won't. After all, I could make a mistake and then what would I do? Oh, I could never go back and say I'm sorry!

Motto: Since Jesus' doesn't forgive me, I can't forgive you either.
http://www.recoveryroadmap.com/BigList/10C-Families.html

 

[tzee]

In order to be legally insane you cannot discern between right and wrong, clearly KC could as she covered her tracks and attempted with that ridiculous alibi. Sociopathy is a personality disorder, not a mental illness.

 

[Theonly1]

Ten commandments of dysfunctional families:
The First Commandment:
Thou shalt reinterpret reality to preserve the perfect fantasy.
Sample Situation: This commandment is designed to hide family secrets. If you saw dad stagger and fall down the basement steps because he was drunk, you can't tell the truth. Instead, reality must be interpreted into an acceptable fantasy. "Daddy wasn't drunk; he simply lost his balance and tripped. Poor Daddy."

Application: Even if you see it, it's not real. You must have made a mistake. Therefore, reinterpret what you saw to make it nice and respectable. If you don't, people will think you're and we're all crazy. We wouldn't want them to think that now, would we?

Motto: Always believe the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the alcoholic truth.

The Second Commandment:
Thou shalt always send mixed messages, especially when it concerns relationships...
Sample Situation: A dominating father tells his child, "I love you. Now beat it and leave me alone."

Application: You don't really know what's true. Either your father loves you or he hates you. Since you never know for sure, you'll never be quite sure if others really mean what they say since those you loved most only spoke in mixed messages. They sounded good, but you couldn't trust them.

Motto: Avoid people and relationships. It's the safe thing to do.

The Third Commandment:
Thou shalt be an adult.
Sample Situation: Children were made to take care of their parents emotionally, physically, or sexually and to meet their parents' "childish" needs for power, attention, sex, and belonging. The children submitted to avoid physical and emotional abandonment by their parents. Children in these environments can't really remember a "childhood." For this reason, children were always expected to be adults.

Application: Being child-like and spontaneous is irresponsible and bad. You must act like an adult at all times and be responsible, even if you're only five years old.

Motto: There's no such thing as child's play. It's all serious stuff.

The Fourth Commandment:
Thou shalt keep secrets from others.
Sample Situation: Daddy has a "secret" that only he and his little girl know. Of course, she can't tell Mommy. If she does, Daddy will hurt you and Mommy might leave and never come back.

Application: A child's most important duty is to protect the image of their parents and family in the community. Watch what you say and be careful not to act funny around other people either. After all, as family we have to protect each other. If you stay quiet, you're loyal. If you can't, we won't love you.

Motto: To really love someone is to show loyalty by protecting their "secrets" at all costs.

The Fifth Commandment:
Thou shalt protect family secrets.
Sample Situation: A member of the family commits suicide. Since this is not acceptable to discuss even in the family, all pictures, memorabilia, and anything else which would indicate that this family member had ever lived here must be discarded. After all, no one in our family would commit suicide, would they???

Application: Our family doesn't have any problems, does it? Even if we did, we don't have to discuss or deal with them. After all, they're not that important. We can simply deny their existence so that we don't have to deal with the grief.

Motto: Life's too painful to have to deal with the pain and the problems. Just ignore them, they'll go away.

The Sixth Commandment:
Thou shalt not feel.
Sample Situation: A child cries because her best friend is moving away. "You shouldn't feel like that. Stop crying!" yells her mother angrily.

Application: Since any display of emotion might betray the family secrets that all is not perfect, all emotions must be repressed and numbed. After all, we're a normal family. We're not like other people who get angry, sad, or afraid.

Motto: Be respectable. After all, respectable people never show their emotions or pain..

The Seventh Commandment:
Thou shalt allow your boundaries to be violated, especially by those who "love" you.
Sample Situation: A child trying to accomplish a task continues to persist and work on it, hoping to gain a sense of accomplishment and approval. "Don't be so stubborn!" mommy says. "Just give up. There' s more important things than that to be done! Now put that stuff away and clean the house so that mommy knows you love her."

Lesson Learned: Anything you want is not worth protecting. Only those you love can tell you what is important and what's not. Quit thinking for yourself and just do what makes everyone else happy..

Motto: Because others are more valuable than you, you don't have the right to maintain your own boundaries or to make decisions.

The Seventh Commandment:
Thou shalt be hyper-vigilant
Sample Situation: A child is constantly reminded how dangerous the world is. People can't be trusted either. Therefore, stay aloof, don't get too close to anybody.

Lesson Learned: The only way to be safe in this world is to be careful and insulate yourself from others. Be careful. Always be on guard They might hurt you. If you need help, don't ask for their help. Do it yourself.

Motto: Always be on your guard. The wise person is always over prepared and distrustful of everyone and everything.

The Eighth Commandments:
Thou shalt not let anyone do anything else for you. Do it all yourself.
Sample Situation: Parents continually remind the child that no one is to be trusted. If they do something for you, they're doing it to manipulate you.

Lesson Learned: Stay aloof and don't make friends with anybody. After all, if you get too close, they'll use, hurt and abuse you. And remember this: nobody does anything for anyone unless they want something from you.

Motto: Do everything yourself.

The Ninth Commandment:
Thou shalt be perfect
Sample Situation: "Just because you got all 'A's on your report card doesn't mean that you couldn't have done better. You're lazy. Now get to work and let's see you get some more 'A+'s'!"

Lesson Learned: If it's not perfect, people won't love you. No matter how good it is, it's never good enough...but keep trying.

Motto: You're only as good as your performance and that's still not good enough!

The Tenth Commandment:
Thou shalt not forgive yourself or others.
Sample Situation: "You're always in my way, child! Why do you keep asking me to play with you? Don't you know I played with you last year? Wasn't that enough?! You ought to be ashamed of yourself! Go to your room. Don't bother me."

Lesson Learned: The only way I can be forgiven and loved is if I can earn it by being perfect. The guiltier I feel, the harder I must work to gain other's approval. If I make any mistakes, even a small one, they'll reject me or think I'm incompetent or worthless. I'm afraid I will make a mistake, I know I will, I feel so guilty. Therefore, even if I think I can do it, I won't. After all, I could make a mistake and then what would I do? Oh, I could never go back and say I'm sorry!

Motto: Since Jesus' doesn't forgive me, I can't forgive you either.
http://www.recoveryroadmap.com/BigList/10C-Families.html

O/T:
Thanks so much for this post. While reading it, I realize (again) how dysfunctional my own family was (First Commandment/Third Commandment/Seventh Commandment/Ninth Commandment).