Casey & Family Psychological Profile #6

[Brini]

O/T:
Thanks so much for this post. While reading it, I realize (again) how dysfunctional my own family was (First Commandment/Third Commandment/Seventh Commandment/Ninth Commandment).

Yeah, I lost count, myself.

 

[Elysium]

Sociopathy/Antisocial personality Disorder starts in childhood, not secondarily to post-partum depression. That's another disorder with a different etiology.

Her childhood friend, Sean, said she's been a liar and manipulator all of her life. My guess is that she's always been a liar and thief, and her family has always covered for her. There are references, for instance, to CA haveing to take thousands out of her 401K at a time, to pay people back from whom KC has stolen.

Some of her high school friends also said KC was a partyer in high school. KC used to smoke dope, for instance, and drink with other kids in the woods by the school. This was before the birth of Caylee.

One of KC's other friends said that they "planned" to unload their virginity. And that shortly after KC did so, she acquired eight lovers.

So, IF KC was a well-behaved child (something that we do not know, one way or another), it appears that adolescence was her "trigger," not Caylee's birth. Because of hormonal changes, adolescence often exacerbates sociopathic personality disorder.

We also don't know that the family was "perfect" before Caylee's birth. In fact, the family had to move of FL after GA lost all of the family's money to a scam, and the As nearly divorced. This was years before Caylee's birth.

KC doesn't believe her lies. This as evidenced by the fact that she will "own up," sometimes, when confronted. Like the time she stopped "leading" the cops to her "office," and admitted that she really did not work at Universal. If she had BELIEVED she worked at Universal, she would have led them to what she thought was her office.

KC could have been on birth control with no difficulty, had she wanted to do. Teenaged girls can go into any Planned Parenthood clinic in the country and get contraceptives, without parental approval or knowledge.

Also, had KC could not have been "forced" to keep the baby. KC had sole legal control over that decision.

If KC felt overcontrolled by CA, she could have got a job and moved out. However, being that she is an entitled sociopath, she wanted to be financially supported AND not have to work.

I agree that CA wants the family to look good, but they are all whacked. Also that the family have enabled KC all of her life, and are continuing to do so. They have always covered for her crimes. It's a lifestyle choice.

Do not agree that KC is mentally ill, or that psychiatry would help her. Sociopaths do not benefit from psychiatric treatment. They just "morph" into the "perfect patient."

I think the "black and white" in the definition of legal insanity lies in contact with reality.

As has been mentioned on this thread, before, Andrea Yates killed her children while out of touch with reality. She had a long psychiatric history. She was both delusional and hallucinating. She thought God wanted her to send her kids to heaven. In other words, she was looney as a 'toon. She was found legally insane.

KC, on the other hand, did and does know what she did was murder, and was wrong and illegal. She knew it when she planned it, when she carried it out, and is trying to evade the consequences to this day. She has never shown any symptoms of denial. She coldly killed her child to hurt CA, and to free herself up for partying hearty. She wasn't the first mother to do that, and she won't be the last. Like the above-cited Diane Downs. She didn't want a kid, and she didn't want anyone else to have her, either. That's plain, old, spite. She's not legally insane.

KC has a personality disorder. I think CA has one, too. That doesn't make them crazy. It makes them immature and of poor character development.

Thank you for your reply. You have enlightened me on several things, one of which was the possibility that her teen years brought about her problems before Caylee was born. But, it does seem that Casey was more out of control than ever after Caylee's birth.

Don't get me wrong, I never intended to imply that I think the Anthony's ever had a perfect family, I was saying that I believe that is how Cindy wanted to portray it. I did not remember reading about Casey being a liar all of her life and that is good to know.

I don't think Casey believes her lies to the extent that she believes that she actually worked, that there was a Zanny and that she didn't kill Caylee..etc. I guess what I was trying to say is that I feel Casey is able to retract her mind from all of that, she still KNOWS right from wrong and truth from fiction, BUT I believe she is able to "disconnect" herself from it when it's convenient for her to do so as a coping mechanism. She can't keep this up when confronted--like at Universal, when she couldn't actually take them to an office. I really don't know how to explain what I mean and it is totally a guess because I have never met Casey or anyone that she has known. BUT, I am proposing that Casey has developed a coping mechanism over the years of detaching herself while still knowing the truth which is why she can sit there and tell the same lie over and over again--even after being proven wrong. To this day, she still says she worked at Universal.

I am a Psychologist but that doesn't make me an "expert" on the Anthonys and it doesn't make my opinions any more right than anyone else here. I don't know them and have not talked to them.

We all have our opinions based on the information we've been able to read and see to this point. I base my theories or guesses on that and keep an open mind to other ideas and/or information. One of the reasons I like this board so much is that we can share our theories, learn from each other, have polite debates--etc..to try to get to the bottom of what really happened and why.

I am aware of George's past problems with money and his addiction to gambling. I'm also aware that this was one reason for the turbulence in his and Cindy's marriage. Perhaps these distractions kept their focus off of Casey's behavioral issues-but, it's possible they knew and thought she'd grow out of it.

I know Casey had access to birth control-- but she was living at home and apparently did not want her parents to know she was sexually active. Who knows who was paying for her medical appointments and prescriptions and who knows if Cindy made a habit of snooping around. The thought of birth control may not have even entered Casey's mind as she is clearly not a responsible person. And we don't know for sure if she wanted to give the baby up, I am just going on an interview and something that makes sense to me. Seeing her personality, I just don't think she would have wanted to keep the baby because she wanted her freedom to do as she wished.

I agree that Casey would not have been able to be forced to keep the baby, but, she had enough incentives to do so, if Cindy told Casey that she would help pay Caylee's bills..etc..Casey may have even seen Caylee as an assurance that she would also be taken care of by her parents (and she was, for the most part).

I don't remember anyone saying Casey was a partyer and dope smoker in high school. I'd like to read those interviews, can you remember the people who said these things?

I agree that Sociopaths /Antisocial Personalities do not respond well to treatment but there are treatments, usually a combination of medication and reprogramming. And it is classified as a mental disorder by the DSM and usually at least one parent shares the same disorder. It is hereditary. There are varying degrees to it and those that have only a few of the traits have a chance of rehabilitation under close supervision over a very long period of time. It is easier to treat when it is caught early but, if they parents themselves are suffering from personality disorders, it is hard to do.

BUT, this disorder will not hold up as an insanity defense for Casey. Perhaps I was harsh in saying that other criminally insane persons should be put away for life or put to death. Maybe a lifelong stint in a psychiatric institution for those. But, no matter what, a killer is a killer. In Casey's case, she knew what she was doing and yes, has been covering for it since day 1. She will get life in prison or the death penalty.

To be clear, I do not blame everything on Cindy. I have problems with Cindy because of her lies and ever changing stories. I know she's been through a lot. But, her way of letting Casey get away with things for so long just ended up creating a monster. Also, I despise the fact that she has pressured George to lie. Cindy reminds me of the saying "ignorance is bliss". In her efforts to portray a perfect family, she seems to have created a completely dysfunctional one. It's time for her to lay all the cards on the table. It's clear she loved Caylee and wanted the best for her but in the end, failed her.

Well, that's all. I'm tired of writing and thinking. Thanks again for your response to my post. It's good to learn something new and it's nice to meet you.

RIP sweet Caylee

 

[white_envelope]

My guess, as a pretty prolific disassociator, is that Casey has come to a place in her mind while sitting there in jail (which could feel more free to her than living with Cindy ever was) that if she can accept her surroundings and find some sort of niche there, then there is nothing going on outside or legally that can hurt her much. She'll do fine in prison also.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for your reply. You have enlightened me on several things, one of which was the possibility that her teen years brought about her problems before Caylee was born. But, it does seem that Casey was more out of control than ever after Caylee's birth.

Don't get me wrong, I never intended to imply that I think the Anthony's ever had a perfect family, I was saying that I believe that is how Cindy wanted to portray it. I did not remember reading about Casey being a liar all of her life and that is good to know.

I don't think Casey believes her lies to the extent that she believes that she actually worked, that there was a Zanny and that she didn't kill Caylee..etc. I guess what I was trying to say is that I feel Casey is able to retract her mind from all of that, she still KNOWS right from wrong and truth from fiction, BUT I believe she is able to "disconnect" herself from it when it's convenient for her to do so as a coping mechanism. She can't keep this up when confronted--like at Universal, when she couldn't actually take them to an office. I really don't know how to explain what I mean and it is totally a guess because I have never met Casey or anyone that she has known. BUT, I am proposing that Casey has developed a coping mechanism over the years of detaching herself while still knowing the truth which is why she can sit there and tell the same lie over and over again--even after being proven wrong. To this day, she still says she worked at Universal.

I am a Psychologist but that doesn't make me an "expert" on the Anthonys and it doesn't make my opinions any more right than anyone else here. I don't know them and have not talked to them.

We all have our opinions based on the information we've been able to read and see to this point. I base my theories or guesses on that and keep an open mind to other ideas and/or information. One of the reasons I like this board so much is that we can share our theories, learn from each other, have polite debates--etc..to try to get to the bottom of what really happened and why.

I am aware of George's past problems with money and his addiction to gambling. I'm also aware that this was one reason for the turbulence in his and Cindy's marriage. Perhaps these distractions kept their focus off of Casey's behavioral issues-but, it's possible they knew and thought she'd grow out of it.

I know Casey had access to birth control-- but she was living at home and apparently did not want her parents to know she was sexually active. Who knows who was paying for her medical appointments and prescriptions and who knows if Cindy made a habit of snooping around. The thought of birth control may not have even entered Casey's mind as she is clearly not a responsible person. And we don't know for sure if she wanted to give the baby up, I am just going on an interview and something that makes sense to me. Seeing her personality, I just don't think she would have wanted to keep the baby because she wanted her freedom to do as she wished.

I agree that Casey would not have been able to be forced to keep the baby, but, she had enough incentives to do so, if Cindy told Casey that she would help pay Caylee's bills..etc..Casey may have even seen Caylee as an assurance that she would also be taken care of by her parents (and she was, for the most part).

I don't remember anyone saying Casey was a partyer and dope smoker in high school. I'd like to read those interviews, can you remember the people who said these things?

I agree that Sociopaths /Antisocial Personalities do not respond well to treatment but there are treatments, usually a combination of medication and reprogramming. And it is classified as a mental disorder by the DSM and usually at least one parent shares the same disorder. It is hereditary. There are varying degrees to it and those that have only a few of the traits have a chance of rehabilitation under close supervision over a very long period of time. It is easier to treat when it is caught early but, if they parents themselves are suffering from personality disorders, it is hard to do.

BUT, this disorder will not hold up as an insanity defense for Casey. Perhaps I was harsh in saying that other criminally insane persons should be put away for life or put to death. Maybe a lifelong stint in a psychiatric institution for those. But, no matter what, a killer is a killer. In Casey's case, she knew what she was doing and yes, has been covering for it since day 1. She will get life in prison or the death penalty.

To be clear, I do not blame everything on Cindy. I have problems with Cindy because of her lies and ever changing stories. I know she's been through a lot. But, her way of letting Casey get away with things for so long just ended up creating a monster. Also, I despise the fact that she has pressured George to lie. Cindy reminds me of the saying "ignorance is bliss". In her efforts to portray a perfect family, she seems to have created a completely dysfunctional one. It's time for her to lay all the cards on the table. It's clear she loved Caylee and wanted the best for her but in the end, failed her.

Well, that's all. I'm tired of writing and thinking. Thanks again for your response to my post. It's good to learn something new and it's nice to meet you.

RIP sweet Caylee

First, welcome to WS!

I completely agree with you regarding Casey and her ability to disassociate (what you refer to as "disconnect" from herself) and that it began as a coping mechanism. But I sure don't see Cindy's problem as "ignorance is bliss". The woman recreates reality to fit her feelings.. which is just what dissasociation is.. their feelings create their facts. No matter how many times they have to rearrange the facts to fit their feelings of the moment they continue to do so.. and they see nothing wrong with it.

I didn't go to school for Psychology as you claim to, I grew up in a home like this and yet the text book personality disordered family traits flash in neon colors above their heads in each and every interview these people give. I don't blame Cindy for "everything" either but I sure as heck recognize an obvious personality disorder when I see one. Absolutely- we can all have differing opinions about what's wrong with these people but the signs and symptoms, the behaviors of those with cluster B personality disorders remain pretty near the same from person to person... that's why there is standard diagnostic criteria.

 

[OneLostGrl]

My guess, as a pretty prolific disassociator, is that Casey has come to a place in her mind while sitting there in jail (which could feel more free to her than living with Cindy ever was) that if she can accept her surroundings and find some sort of niche there, then there is nothing going on outside or legally that can hurt her much. She'll do fine in prison also.

I'm with ya! I think that Cindy videotaped the depo last week so she could give it to JoseB to show Casey.. I think Casey wants to know her mom is still sticking up for her and if she thinks so after viewing the depo she may let her come visit her in jail.

 

[Brini]

Thank you for your reply. You have enlightened me on several things, one of which was the possibility that her teen years brought about her problems before Caylee was born. But, it does seem that Casey was more out of control than ever after Caylee's birth.

Don't get me wrong, I never intended to imply that I think the Anthony's ever had a perfect family, I was saying that I believe that is how Cindy wanted to portray it. I did not remember reading about Casey being a liar all of her life and that is good to know.

I don't think Casey believes her lies to the extent that she believes that she actually worked, that there was a Zanny and that she didn't kill Caylee..etc. I guess what I was trying to say is that I feel Casey is able to retract her mind from all of that, she still KNOWS right from wrong and truth from fiction, BUT I believe she is able to "disconnect" herself from it when it's convenient for her to do so as a coping mechanism. She can't keep this up when confronted--like at Universal, when she couldn't actually take them to an office. I really don't know how to explain what I mean and it is totally a guess because I have never met Casey or anyone that she has known. BUT, I am proposing that Casey has developed a coping mechanism over the years of detaching herself while still knowing the truth which is why she can sit there and tell the same lie over and over again--even after being proven wrong. To this day, she still says she worked at Universal.

I am a Psychologist but that doesn't make me an "expert" on the Anthonys and it doesn't make my opinions any more right than anyone else here. I don't know them and have not talked to them.

We all have our opinions based on the information we've been able to read and see to this point. I base my theories or guesses on that and keep an open mind to other ideas and/or information. One of the reasons I like this board so much is that we can share our theories, learn from each other, have polite debates--etc..to try to get to the bottom of what really happened and why.

I am aware of George's past problems with money and his addiction to gambling. I'm also aware that this was one reason for the turbulence in his and Cindy's marriage. Perhaps these distractions kept their focus off of Casey's behavioral issues-but, it's possible they knew and thought she'd grow out of it.

I know Casey had access to birth control-- but she was living at home and apparently did not want her parents to know she was sexually active. Who knows who was paying for her medical appointments and prescriptions and who knows if Cindy made a habit of snooping around. The thought of birth control may not have even entered Casey's mind as she is clearly not a responsible person. And we don't know for sure if she wanted to give the baby up, I am just going on an interview and something that makes sense to me. Seeing her personality, I just don't think she would have wanted to keep the baby because she wanted her freedom to do as she wished.

I agree that Casey would not have been able to be forced to keep the baby, but, she had enough incentives to do so, if Cindy told Casey that she would help pay Caylee's bills..etc..Casey may have even seen Caylee as an assurance that she would also be taken care of by her parents (and she was, for the most part).

I don't remember anyone saying Casey was a partyer and dope smoker in high school. I'd like to read those interviews, can you remember the people who said these things?

I agree that Sociopaths /Antisocial Personalities do not respond well to treatment but there are treatments, usually a combination of medication and reprogramming. And it is classified as a mental disorder by the DSM and usually at least one parent shares the same disorder. It is hereditary. There are varying degrees to it and those that have only a few of the traits have a chance of rehabilitation under close supervision over a very long period of time. It is easier to treat when it is caught early but, if they parents themselves are suffering from personality disorders, it is hard to do.

BUT, this disorder will not hold up as an insanity defense for Casey. Perhaps I was harsh in saying that other criminally insane persons should be put away for life or put to death. Maybe a lifelong stint in a psychiatric institution for those. But, no matter what, a killer is a killer. In Casey's case, she knew what she was doing and yes, has been covering for it since day 1. She will get life in prison or the death penalty.

To be clear, I do not blame everything on Cindy. I have problems with Cindy because of her lies and ever changing stories. I know she's been through a lot. But, her way of letting Casey get away with things for so long just ended up creating a monster. Also, I despise the fact that she has pressured George to lie. Cindy reminds me of the saying "ignorance is bliss". In her efforts to portray a perfect family, she seems to have created a completely dysfunctional one. It's time for her to lay all the cards on the table. It's clear she loved Caylee and wanted the best for her but in the end, failed her.

Well, that's all. I'm tired of writing and thinking. Thanks again for your response to my post. It's good to learn something new and it's nice to meet you.

RIP sweet Caylee

Nice to meetcha back, love! :blowkiss:

 

[songline]

All the professionals on TV have noted the same thing and some here are professionals who are qualified to make their observations .

It is not hard for not only a professional, but even a lay person to recognize anti social behaviors. The DSM-IV lists the symptoms of the behaviors and the number which need to be present for a diagnosis. KC could have written the criteria for it. The interesting thing to me is so could Cindy.

The thing I see different in Cindy is she appears (at least on the surface) to be in the throngs of an active addiction. The erratic emotional responses indicate some type of addiction in my mind. I am now wondering what KC meant when she said at first that she hadn't told anything, and for Cindy not to worry.

Turbo, anti social behavior is very often connected to certain mental illness. This is certain.
Seems to me that if Casey was to be really diagnosed professionally, this girl will not get a diagnosis of "Normal" whatever that means.
It is only true that Casey has no "History" that we know off because she had no diagnosis.
MOTHERS who kill their kids are not normal.
AND yes some of them are not humane, while others are sick, not well.

 

[Brini]

Turbo, anti social behavior is very often connected to certain mental illness. This is certain.
Seems to me that if Casey was to be really diagnosed professionally, this girl will not get a diagnosis of "Normal" whatever that means.
It is only true that Casey has no "History" that we know off because she had no diagnosis.
MOTHERS who kill their kids are not normal.
AND yes some of them are not humane, while others are sick, not well.

KC had a full psychiatric work-up in jail.

 

[Theonly1]

KC had a full psychiatric work-up in jail.

Exactly, Brini. But while KC had a full psychiatric work-up in jail (particularly when she was seen by two court-appointed psychs to see if she was suitable for bond), the primary concerns of the psychiatrists for bond are/were: 1) is she a danger to herself and 2) is she a danger to others. [I think that was their scope for bond...]

I think that she could have a whole host of personality disorders (like narcissism) and/or more severe diagnoses like bipolar, depression (without suicidal ideation), etc. and still have been suitable for bond.

Just because she was not found to be a danger to herself or others does not mean she was not found to have "problems". As far as I can tell, her psych records for bond were sealed. For all I know, they could be two fat little files .

:blowkiss:

 

[karenmamo]

I'm with ya! I think that Cindy videotaped the depo last week so she could give it to JoseB to show Casey.. I think Casey wants to know her mom is still sticking up for her and if she thinks so after viewing the depo she may let her come visit her in jail.

...and I keep wondering, what is the big secret in that family

They all attempt to appease little Casey because she could open her mouth and damn them all to hell?

About what? :furious:
I am furious because I cannot figure it out.

 

[songline]

KC had a full psychiatric work-up in jail.

Thanks - did they release her diagnosis, I do not think they can.

 

[songline]

...and I keep wondering, what is the big secret in that family

They all attempt to appease little Casey because she could open her mouth and damn them all to hell?

About what? :furious:
I am furious because I cannot figure it out.

I said this on another thread, but It may belong here too.
I am starting to think that with GA always calling them my daughters that he is telling the truth;
then thinking about it I think it is unusual for him to say Hi Beautiful, or Hi gorgeous; YAK!
If asked my parent did say they had 3 kids one is their daughters. (they did consider My kid theirs too-LOL)

My father thought I was pretty but he never addressed me that way. When I got dressed nice he may say you look beautiful, but that is very different, and a parent should know the difference. and they never accidentally called my daughter their daughter. They could have accidentally mixed up our names sometimes LOL.

It is a bit UN-nerving the way GA addresses Casey, and calles them my daughters. hmmmmm?
I would not be in shock if the secret is that they are both his daughters like he always seems to say, and then correct himself. THAT IS beginning to rub me the wrong way.
Maybe that is why Cindy has a hold on him. Maybe that is why Lee said CMA. Maybe that is why they are all hiding something, acting strange, cleaning cars, etc......
And if there is any Merritt to anything that I am thinking? then Casey for certain had no idea about boundaries.
I would say that she would then qualify for more then just socially inapt, but also for some level of insanity because anybody who lives in a setting like that does not have a clue about boundaries and is way out of order.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Yeah, I lost count, myself.

:blowkiss: Me too, brini, me too! LOL

 

[OneLostGrl]

Exactly, Brini. But while KC had a full psychiatric work-up in jail (particularly when she was seen by two court-appointed psychs to see if she was suitable for bond), the primary concerns of the psychiatrists for bond are/were: 1) is she a danger to herself and 2) is she a danger to others. [I think that was their scope for bond...]

I think that she could have a whole host of personality disorders (like narcissism) and/or more severe diagnoses like bipolar, depression (without suicidal ideation), etc. and still have been suitable for bond.

Just because she was not found to be a danger to herself or others does not mean she was not found to have "problems". As far as I can tell, her psych records for bond were sealed. For all I know, they could be two fat little files .

:blowkiss:

Another primary concern of Psych testing while in jail is "Is she insane"? "Does she know right from wrong", "Does she understand why she is here?" Because if she is "insane" she would be held in an appropriate place either within the jail or at the state forensic hospital (I don't know Florida's set-up.. if they have a state hospital on site or not..). and she would be sent there, put on meds to attempt to "bring her back to sanity" so she could face trial. She would not have been sent home on bond. They don't let "insane" people out on bond to walk the streets.. ankle bracelet or not.

While we all seem to agree that Casey's psych eval from jail is indeed sealed there are some things we do know without needing to wait for it to be unsealed. We KNOW Casey was released on bond and we also KNOW she has not been on any medications since entering jail except for the day a childs remains were found in the woods near her parents home.

She has problems alright but they have nothing to do with "insanity".. her sealed psych work-up speaks loudly, without ever needing to speak, IMO. :blowkiss:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thanks - did they release her diagnosis, I do not think they can.

You are correct, they can't. More than likely they did not "go there". A Psych evaluation while in jail is just to make sure one is safe from themselves, if they know right from wrong, if they understand what they are doing there, if they understand the charges against them (It has been my experience that they really go into that part pretty heavy, it's annoying because it's like they think they are talking to a 3 year old) and if they can contribute to their own defense. I have never known the basic jail psych eval to be about diagnosis but I could be wrong on that.

Russell, are you watching us from afar LOL? Could you verify this part for us? please TIA

 

[Brini]

You are correct, they can't. More than likely they did not "go there". A Psych evaluation while in jail is just to make sure one is safe from themselves, if they know right from wrong, if they understand what they are doing there, if they understand the charges against them (It has been my experience that they really go into that part pretty heavy, it's annoying because it's like they think they are talking to a 3 year old) and if they can contribute to their own defense. I have never known the basic jail psych eval to be about diagnosis but I could be wrong on that.

Russell, are you watching us from afar LOL? Could you verify this part for us? please TIA

I don't know about FL. But, in CA jails/prisons one can often get a first-rate workup with treatment plan and meds.

 

[Knot4u2no]

I don't know about FL. But, in CA jails/prisons one can often get a first-rate workup with treatment plan and meds.

Same in NC.

Russell

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't know about FL. But, in CA jails/prisons one can often get a first-rate workup with treatment plan and meds.

I understand about being diagnosed and medicated while in jail or prison. But when the court mandates a competency hearing upon entering jail or release on bond those are seperate, no? What you describe is more like an evaluation for a treatment plan (and diagnosis, obviously) once ones fate is already sealed (sentenced) or if, say, their competency hearing revealed they are incompetent.

Or are competency, DX and treatment plan all rolled into one eval? Cuz wow if it is! LOL

 

[OneLostGrl]

Same in NC.

Russell

Thanks for answering

Same question as I asked Brini.. are the evals rolled into one or are they seperate, If ya'll don't mind me asking?

 

[gibby207]

I have only ONE THING to say about an insanity plea: PFFFFFFFFFFFFPT!!!