Casey & Family Psychological Profile #7

[Brini]

I listened to Lenamon on JVM and I got the eerie feeling he was alluding to using past abuses on Casey. He never came out and said that. I just got that feeling.

The abuses she inflicted, or abuses inflicted on her?

Wouldn't work if it's the latter. Too many people grew up in horrible situations, but ended up decent people. In fact, to many on THIS w/s!

Also, he'd have to have proof.

 

[Brini]

For me it's hard to say where to draw the line between mentally ill with some type of "disorder" and plain old character flaws. Some people just don't have good character and even when they know what it is, they never strive to achieve it.

That's why some disorders come under Axis II, in the DSM. Characteriological disorders. Most Axis IIs never commit a crime. But, many criminals are Axis IIs.

 

[Brini]

I really agree with what OneLostGirl and many of you are saying- legal insanity isn't for when we don't understand why a person did something, or if we think someone is too cold-hearted to be sane. Its - in everyday terms - the level when someone is so mentally ill that they could be civilly committed against their will to an institution. That's a huge hurdle - the right to take away someone's liberty has to be for GOOD cause, whether its in a criminal trial or not. And OLG is right that it is very, very, very rare. In federal court there's a presumption of sanity- defendants have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt insanity.

But to prove capital murder, the prosecution has to prove each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think TL meant he wanted to try for a NGRI ruling. I think he wanted to raise doubts about Casey's state of mind- to try to raise a reasonable doubt as to her being cold and calculating. If TL could convince even a few jurors that KC was a troubled woman who snapped - not a mother who premeditated the killing of her own daughter - then she might be convicted of second degree murder ("depraved indifference to human life") rather than capital murder. Still guilty, but no death penalty.

Reasonable doubt emphasizes the word "reasonable."

Most troubled women are not murders. Most floridly mentally ill people are also not murderers. Most are also not criminals.

KC has a criminal record for stealing. She has no psychiatric record, at all. She and her family deny that she has ever had a problem with mental illness, of any kind.

However, based on her criminal record and behavior, and her personal/social behavior, plus her total lack of mourning for or searching for her child, it's easy to prove that she's a sociopath. Most criminals are sociopaths.

I don't think he can pull off any sort of mitigating circumstance.

 

[Brini]

Member in one of the jail house tapes, KC looked really happy and she had just gotten back from talking to the head dr. She was telling rents that the dr. said she wasn't crazy. She was very proud of it. Bet CA had told her she was crazy in the past. She will never let her lawyers say she was crazy. No way. Then her mother would be right. I don't think the lawyers saying she is would do any good if she won't go along with it---right?

Is there any way a lawyer could go heady and have her declared crazy enough to go for this in court?

Nope.

 

[Brini]

Whenever a parent of a child states "I believe everything my child tells me"...Big red flags should rise up and neon signs should flash...Huge character flaw in that person. At that moment, the parent is putting their child on a pedestal and refusing to see or suspect and human flaws will or have occurred.

No insanity defense going on here. I still expect them to explain away the 31 days with mental illness of some kind, though. By now she should be antsy.

I suspect the family is keeping her quiet and appeased with videos and appearances. It makes cindy and casey happy to see each other on TV. They feel important and famous. I suspect the A's have never been happier....no, not because of losing Caylee....but having peace and quite in their life. Life is much easier for them.

As far as the trial, I cannot picture ANY defense, I wonder if they will just rest after the State's case, having done all the challenges during that time.

Yep! No defense. JB et al will just try to attack the evidence, and maybe try to throw some stuff at a SODDI, to see if any sticks.

 

[Brini]

Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity is hard to come by in our state. One of the prongs of proof of insanity is the test "would the person have done the same crime with a policeman standing beside them". A truly delusional person would and explain it to the policeman that the voices from the tv instructed them to or voices directly from God instructed them. The facility where I worked as admissions officer had several Elvises and some Jesus Christs and one George Washington.

Yeah, and the Elvises and Jesuses couldn't plan out and cover up a murder. ;-)

In Los Angeles, a number of Jesuses preach on street corners, downtown.

 

[Brini]

He may have been thinking of fugue, she actually thought she was Zanny, and she taught Casey a lesson.
"A fugue state, formally Dissociative Fugue (previously called Psychogenic Fugue) (DSM-IV Dissociative Disorders 300.13[1]), is a rare psychiatric disorder characterized by reversible amnesia for personal identity, including the memories, personality and other identifying characteristics of individuality. The state is usually short-lived (hours to days), but can last months or longer. Dissociative fugue usually involves unplanned travel or wandering, and is sometimes accompanied by the establishment of a new identity. After recovery from fugue, previous memories usually return intact, however there is complete amnesia for the fugue episode. Importantly, an episode is not characterized as a fugue if it can be related to the ingestion of psychotropic substances, to trauma, to a general medical condition, or to psychiatric conditions such as delerium or dementia, bipolar disorder or depression. Fugues are usually precipitated by a stressful episode, and upon recovery there may be amnesia for the original stressor (Dissociative Amnesia)."

With respect, KC has no history of fugue. DID starts in childhood. One doesn't just get it, when one gets tired of one's child. And, DID fugue in a child would be impossible to overlook, over time.

With DID, one might find that one has driven to Dallas, and doesn't remember doing it, or why. KC never did anything like that. She has never "lost time." Losing time would be very, very scary.

Also, there's some question of whether DID even exists. It's thought by many treators to be idiopathic (caused by the treator).

When I was a psych nurse for a very large company, I saw maybe 40 DID cases, per year, during the late 80s. ALL turned out to be iatrogenic. (DID was a psychiatric fad, back then. It was called MPD.) All of our "MPD" patients turned out to REALLY be borderline personality disorder patients.

KC did not and does not think she's Zanny. She KNOWS there is no Zanny.

 

[kageykaren]

I am so far from having any form of leagal knowledge but I do have knowledge in the mental health field. I feel there could be a couple of ways TL might have meant his statement. No insanity but once again I state "Mental Drerangement" JG alluded to KC's seiaure event and there is a strong possibility that it was brought on by dehydration, lack of food drugs like Zanex and valiumn, coke, extacy and or other possibilities like head injury(which we have never heard of) or something maligment which I think we can cross off. KC was very bone skinny before her arrest which could elude to drug use. Because i have a son with two forms of seizure disorder I know far to well how stress can also bring out seizures. Many women have been know to have seizures as well after the birth of a child due to hormone imbalance. Defense could state she purchased these drugs illegally to avoid the family knowing. Defense showing that since a probable seizure K C felt alittle off balanced, feeling the need to self medicate. The pathology of her stress level being brought on by maternal mother and a mentally absent father. Two thousand nine is the year of the study of the brain and all of the new territory concerning the brain and the medical advances for people with brain disorders. If you aren't aware of the advances made in neurology psychiatry it would be difficult to even think that the defense could use such a defense as, "My brain made me do it." After hearing TL statement of mental health defense I changed my spoken words I'v posted of, "Psychiatry and the law are emeshed but will be no defense for KC". Since JB didn't take TL up on this line of defense he will not be able to play out the, "Poor me KC carp" I feel he may have missed a good opportunity because no one is going to be sensitive to a, in JB words a "strong southern woman" As all southern good women know you certainly wouldn't behave in the manner kC did. As my strong, cotton picking aunts would tell you, You grab a bull by its horns and get to the bottom of it, inlisting and delegating everyone. Wish TL could hav told us what defense jB might possibly be using that caused such an issue for a man of integrity to walk away?

I'm sorry to pull the whole dang post over but I didn't know hoe to snip it. After this thought poped into my mind as a scenerio defense maybe could have ustilized, I delved deeper inot the "Temporary Mental Derangement for my fourth time. Upon googling the subject I came upon something that defense maybe could have used since we don't know her medical records during school or after. That part of her life hasn't really been exposed except to hear the chat about not finishing school and she may have been popular. Stay with me. We heard about the documented seizure episode, possible drug use, KC feeling as if she need psychiatric help, running amuck, CA not filling out the form explaining KC mental health for the FBI, KC stating upon her first jail visit, "I'm not the boss. I'm not in controll of anything,," (although we know the real meaning) Kc grandios statements and possible mania, shown by phone records of very little sleep ect... I'm sure there are more instances defense could come up with alluding and pointing towards as TL stated a MENTAL HEALTH issue. Remember he said Mental Health, not insanity. As part of Mental Derangement I found a diagnosis that defense may have been able to parlay into her defense of Mental Health. This is one form of Tempoary Derangement and it is called Monomania. "Meaning mania on some level." "While the person so affected is perfectly rational upon every other subject they feel an uncontrollable impulse to commit crime." "So the crime which is sought to be excused (Plea down in kc case) must have been the result of the mental affliction. "The law will not recognize an Irresitable Impulse unless it is a product of a diseased mind." Monomania must have been the result of mental disorder or it is no excuse for a crime. Kleptomaniacs have been known to be diagnosed with this disorder as an example. I can just see JB and his dp crew calling in high priced, psychiatrist, neurologist, addiction specialist ect... and as we know they can be bought in this case. Even though I through out this theory as a lay person I'm asking myself if I were a juror what would I think of this defense. I can see KC in some of this disorder I wrote about but I remain thinking, it was cold and callouse. Does my statement lean towards, "Monomania" diagnosis.? I'm done figuring out a possible mental health defense and is it even worth all this time? Mahalo

 

[Verité]

YOU ARE CORRECT.

. . . .1/2 of the chit she did is insane:
Who does not make a 911 call for 31 days?
Who goes to party when a kid is missing?
Who goes to get their nails and tattoos done?
Who lies, lies, lies?
Who insists on a clown for a lawyer?

Whose ego states fluctuate so rapidly that she doesn't know at any given moment whether she's Zenaida Gonzales, Juliet Lewis, or Amy Huizenga?
And who drives around for days and days with a decaying corpse in her vehicle?

 

[songline]

LE knows KC didn't give Caylee to anyone. The forensic evidence of Caylee's death is in KC's car.

It is not easy for a maternal MOM to kill her kid. And yes it looks like a susan smith!
Yes it is in her car, and it could have been put there by someone who wanted to frame her.
LE has no finger prints to tie her to the deed. And yes maybe she did it.
We still don't have something that ties her to it....
Somebody here said it best;
"They don't have proof that Casey didn't do it but there is a load of evidence that doesn't prove she did do it."

I am not saying CASEY did not do it.....
I am saying it is evident to me that this girl is not well;
And it is evident to me that if we follow the money - lots more chit will fall out of the air.
It baffles me that JB is her lawyer. I do not think she has a chance in hell with that Bozo.
And if her parents went through taking so many chances for her behalf,
WHY aren't they screaming about Bozo ???
Casey is only 22 and can be put in her place. Look how fast she came home when Cindy took a fit!!!!
Why isnt Cindy jumping around like a loonie about Bozo?
But she is jumping around when she is asked if KC stole? when we already know Casey's MO.

 

[songline]

Google mothers who have killed their kids. It happens. A lot. I agree that it is unnatural, but so are these mothers.

When it happens it is usually to make the woman free for a man she wants.

KC knew that TonE didn't want a kid, at that time. She also wanted to be free to party. She is much more appealing to the guys in her crowd, without the baggage of a toddler.

There are also quite a few mothers who allow their "men" to sexually or physically abuse the kids, so she'll "have a man." (I've heard this, myself, many times).

Motive is the easiest part.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/marybeth_tinning/index.html

http://www.shotsmag.co.uk/mothers who kill/Mothers Who Kill.htm

Of course I know it happens. I dont need to google it. it reeks of a Susan Smith type....
And It is still very unnatural. I can also see her mixed up with bad people, and dumb enough to get set up.

IF it did happen and with Cindy's Freudian slip on LKL this week that Casey was Grieving and that is why she did not call LE for 31 days IF Casey is the culprit.
THEN FOR SURE all I can say is that JB is taking her last walk.
This is then the worst defense strategy ever.
Then he is really working for someone Else and not getting controlled by no 22 year old twit.

 

[songline]

GA keeps trying to talk to KC re: changing lawyers.

KC and CA are the bosses. They are matriarchs. The guys are the underlings.

Well if he is doing it with JBs computer that is No Good.
I think GA should go see KC by himself.
Yes it will be recorded, videod, but at least he has a one on one without JBs interference.
MOO

 

[kageykaren]

From our post we all seem to realize KC is hopefully going to be punished an evidence seems to prove this for the most part. Discussing possible avenues of how defense might approach the subject at trial for her defense has been interesting. If defense with a mental health defense it might award KC a place with other psychiatri prisoners incarcerated instead of sitting on death row with less persons to socialize with and ifshe recieves life without parole wouldn't KC be in the general population. I don't know the legal part of wher KC will spend her remaining days so help on this subject for the umpteenth time would help. Defense must be going for an all or nothing which would leave her on death row while appealing??? Which is the worst of the 3 evils in prison life

 

[lawlady84]

Reasonable doubt emphasizes the word "reasonable."

Most troubled women are not murders. Most floridly mentally ill people are also not murderers. Most are also not criminals.

KC has a criminal record for stealing. She has no psychiatric record, at all. She and her family deny that she has ever had a problem with mental illness, of any kind.

However, based on her criminal record and behavior, and her personal/social behavior, plus her total lack of mourning for or searching for her child, it's easy to prove that she's a sociopath. Most criminals are sociopaths.

I don't think he can pull off any sort of mitigating circumstance.

I didn't say that I necessarily believe that the defense would succeed, but its what I think a responsible defense attorney would/should do. The defense has a duty to make every argument, and its up to the jury to decide what's reasonable. There are plenty of cases where the prosecution moves for a moves to exclude defense evidence for being, basically, ridiculous, and the judge always, always, rules its up to the jury to say its ridiculous.

Also, yes, based on the evidence released I don't think there is a reasonable doubt that Casey is responsible for the death of Caylee. But the difference between first and second degree murder is much, much closer. There are cases where the defendant has abused and neglected her child for years - where witnesses come forward and say the defendant hated her child, wished her child was dead, did this, did that. Situations like that lead very easily to the conclusion that the defendant purposefully and with malice premeditated murder. Here, we have NO real evidence that before the act Casey is on trial for, she "hated" Caylee.

You can't infer intent from the act that's in question. And Casey's prior bad acts aren't going to come in unless she testifies. And even in that case, character evidence is very limited - usually it has to go to "truthfulness." The flaw I think in some of the reasoning here is that you can't assume the ultimate issue (that Casey killed Caylee) as evidence of her state of mind. We're trying to prove that issue.

Personally I do see the possibility of reasonable doubt that it was premeditated. I think the prosecution is going to do a great job explaining the duct tape, sticker, etc., to try to convince the jury of premeditation. But if the defense did a great job - saying Casey never planned to kill Caylee, that it was an accident, or she just meant to harm (not kill) her - it could provide a reasonable doubt as to what is needed to prove 1st degree murder. It could end up going to felony murder - since death during aggravated child abuse would qualify - but I don't think before trial there is evidence of murder 1 beyond a reasonable doubt.

I've seen cases where it was - Joseph Duncan III for one. We all are so involved that its hard to see the evidence objectively. Compare this case to some others: there are slam dunk cases, and then there are circumstantially very strong cases. I think this is the latter.

 

[debs]

It is not easy for a maternal MOM to kill her kid.
Yes it is in her car, and it could have been put there by someone who wanted to frame her.
And yes maybe she did it.
We still don have something that ties her to it....
Somebody here has said it best;
"They don't have proof that Casey didn't do it but there is a load of evidence that doesn't prove she did do it."

No one here said that. It is a quote from Cindy.

 

[lawlady84]

From our post we all seem to realize KC is hopefully going to be punished an evidence seems to prove this for the most part. Discussing possible avenues of how defense might approach the subject at trial for her defense has been interesting. If defense with a mental health defense it might award KC a place with other psychiatri prisoners incarcerated instead of sitting on death row with less persons to socialize with and ifshe recieves life without parole wouldn't KC be in the general population. I don't know the legal part of wher KC will spend her remaining days so help on this subject for the umpteenth time would help. Defense must be going for an all or nothing which would leave her on death row while appealing??? Which is the worst of the 3 evils in prison life

Usually its just prison or you're free. If you succeed in a not guilty by reason of insanity defense, you can be committed to a mental institution for treatment. Different categories of murder have different sentences - if the defense can prove that the killing wasn't premeditated, the sentence is something like 25 years to life. If they argue it was an accident and manslaughter, its a little less.

From what we've heard, JB is going for the "she's 100% innocent, someone else did it" defense - he's going all or nothing, and I think KC is betting that she's going to walk free. If the jury finds her guilty, and at the sentencing hearing they sentence her to death, she's on death row while she appeals. If the jury sentences her to something less - murder 2, manslaughter, etc. - she'll go to jail for whatever time they sentence her to.

If you have a case where either the defendant confesses or its really clear that the defendant did it, usually the defense will try to plea bargain to both lessen the sentence, and sometimes, the prison the person will be incarcerated at. I've been working on some of the financial fraud cases, and for cases like Madoff and some of the CEOs, the evidence is so great they don't even bother with trial - they will negotiate with the prosecutors that they will direct the government to what offshore bank accounts money is hidden in in exchange for a life sentence in either a prison near Manhattan (so their family could visit) or some of the "kushier" prisons - like the one Martha Stewart went to (now she calls her prison stay her time at Yale).

That's a little O/T but its more in my area of practice. In reality, "common criminals" usually have little to offer the prosecution (unless they offer to turn on big fish), so they usually have less leeway.

 

[Brini]

I'm sorry to pull the whole dang post over but I didn't know hoe to snip it. After this thought poped into my mind as a scenerio defense maybe could have ustilized, I delved deeper inot the "Temporary Mental Derangement for my fourth time. Upon googling the subject I came upon something that defense maybe could have used since we don't know her medical records during school or after. That part of her life hasn't really been exposed except to hear the chat about not finishing school and she may have been popular. Stay with me. We heard about the documented seizure episode, possible drug use, KC feeling as if she need psychiatric help, running amuck, CA not filling out the form explaining KC mental health for the FBI, KC stating upon her first jail visit, "I'm not the boss. I'm not in controll of anything,," (although we know the real meaning) Kc grandios statements and possible mania, shown by phone records of very little sleep ect... I'm sure there are more instances defense could come up with alluding and pointing towards as TL stated a MENTAL HEALTH issue. Remember he said Mental Health, not insanity. As part of Mental Derangement I found a diagnosis that defense may have been able to parlay into her defense of Mental Health. This is one form of Tempoary Derangement and it is called Monomania. "Meaning mania on some level." "While the person so affected is perfectly rational upon every other subject they feel an uncontrollable impulse to commit crime." "So the crime which is sought to be excused (Plea down in kc case) must have been the result of the mental affliction. "The law will not recognize an Irresitable Impulse unless it is a product of a diseased mind." Monomania must have been the result of mental disorder or it is no excuse for a crime. Kleptomaniacs have been known to be diagnosed with this disorder as an example. I can just see JB and his dp crew calling in high priced, psychiatrist, neurologist, addiction specialist ect... and as we know they can be bought in this case. Even though I through out this theory as a lay person I'm asking myself if I were a juror what would I think of this defense. I can see KC in some of this disorder I wrote about but I remain thinking, it was cold and callouse. Does my statement lean towards, "Monomania" diagnosis.? I'm done figuring out a possible mental health defense and is it even worth all this time? Mahalo

I don't think it would work, honey. :blowkiss:

A monomania is an obsession with a particular idea. It's a delusion. Like, a delusion that one is adopted, on a low level. On a higher level, a delusion that one is possessed by an alien entity, or a demon, as an example.

KC has no hx of monomania, or any other delusional system. She doesn't have a thought disorder, she has a personality disorder. It's characterological.

JB can hire a shrink that will say pretty much anything.

But, other than being wild, immature, thoughtless, mendacious, dishonest, cold and selfish, there isn't much wrong with KC. She's a sociopath.

A lot of CEOs, politicians, and special forces types are also sociopaths. They steal, maybe kill. But, when they get caught, they do not have a mental illness excuse.

Such people are not so much crazy as they are emotionally deficient. They don't have delusions or hallucinations. They know who and where they are, and what they are doing. They just don't care if they are within the law or not, or if other people are hurt, or not.

 

[Brini]

Whose ego states fluctuate so rapidly that she doesn't know at any given moment whether she's Zenaida Gonzales, Juliet Lewis, or Amy Huizenga?
And who drives around for days and days with a decaying corpse in her vehicle?

She knows who she is, and where she is. She does not insist that she is someone else, and can accurately report events around other people-- like, say, the last time she saw Annie. Or, who was at a particular party. When she is with her family or friends, she does not insist that she is Zanny, Annie, or anyone else.

She knows she made up Zenaida and Lewis, that Annie is a real person, where Annie can be found, and how to contact Annie.

If she was delusional, she would have taken LE to what she thought was her office. She would not have stopped in the hall and said, "Look, guys. I don't really work here,"

And, if she was delusional, she would have periods where she would think she was Annie, or whomever, when she was with friends or family. That would not be overlooked.

She also would not make excuses for her lies, because she wouldn't be lying-- she would be delusional. Example: "I lied to LE to protect Caylee/my family."

She drove around with the corpse in her car because she is dumb as dirt, and it took her awhile to get around to disposing of the corpse.

 

[Brini]

It is not easy for a maternal MOM to kill her kid. And yes it looks like a susan smith!
Yes it is in her car, and it could have been put there by someone who wanted to frame her.
LE has no finger prints to tie her to the deed. And yes maybe she did it.
We still don't have something that ties her to it....
Somebody here said it best;
"They don't have proof that Casey didn't do it but there is a load of evidence that doesn't prove she did do it."

I am not saying CASEY did not do it.....
I am saying it is evident to me that this girl is not well;
And it is evident to me that if we follow the money - lots more chit will fall out of the air.
It baffles me that JB is her lawyer. I do not think she has a chance in hell with that Bozo.
And if her parents went through taking so many chances for her behalf,
WHY aren't they screaming about Bozo ???
Casey is only 22 and can be put in her place. Look how fast she came home when Cindy took a fit!!!!
Why isnt Cindy jumping around like a loonie about Bozo?
But she is jumping around when she is asked if KC stole? when we already know Casey's MO.

She didn't come home when CA had a fit. CA had to go drag her out of TonE's place. A LOT of the time, she cusses her parents out, and then stomps out of the house.

JB may be[unusual] , but KC has the right to choose her counsel. Her parents can pitch a fit, but it's up to KC. KC is not afraid of either parent.

There is no evidence that anyone but KC put the baby's corpse in the trunk. Nobody forced her to drive around with her baby's body. She knew the body was in the trunk. KC was the last person to have custody of both the baby AND the car. Period. That and the DNA, in the trunk, is MUCH more evidence than most people have against them, when they are convicted of murder.

And, that doesn't even take into consideration all the lying, attempts to cover-up, and attempts to mislead or balk LE.

If you were the last person seen with, say, your boss, and your boss's body was found in your car-- which you had been driving for a week, you d___ betcha LE would present you with you a set of silvery bracelets.

You may think that KC is crazy. But, the fact STILL is, she knew what she was doing, and tried to cover it up. That means she is not legally insane. Period.

 

[Brini]

I didn't say that I necessarily believe that the defense would succeed, but its what I think a responsible defense attorney would/should do. The defense has a duty to make every argument, and its up to the jury to decide what's reasonable. There are plenty of cases where the prosecution moves for a moves to exclude defense evidence for being, basically, ridiculous, and the judge always, always, rules its up to the jury to say its ridiculous.

Also, yes, based on the evidence released I don't think there is a reasonable doubt that Casey is responsible for the death of Caylee. But the difference between first and second degree murder is much, much closer. There are cases where the defendant has abused and neglected her child for years - where witnesses come forward and say the defendant hated her child, wished her child was dead, did this, did that. Situations like that lead very easily to the conclusion that the defendant purposefully and with malice premeditated murder. Here, we have NO real evidence that before the act Casey is on trial for, she "hated" Caylee.

You can't infer intent from the act that's in question. And Casey's prior bad acts aren't going to come in unless she testifies. And even in that case, character evidence is very limited - usually it has to go to "truthfulness." The flaw I think in some of the reasoning here is that you can't assume the ultimate issue (that Casey killed Caylee) as evidence of her state of mind. We're trying to prove that issue.

Personally I do see the possibility of reasonable doubt that it was premeditated. I think the prosecution is going to do a great job explaining the duct tape, sticker, etc., to try to convince the jury of premeditation. But if the defense did a great job - saying Casey never planned to kill Caylee, that it was an accident, or she just meant to harm (not kill) her - it could provide a reasonable doubt as to what is needed to prove 1st degree murder. It could end up going to felony murder - since death during aggravated child abuse would qualify - but I don't think before trial there is evidence of murder 1 beyond a reasonable doubt.

I've seen cases where it was - Joseph Duncan III for one. We all are so involved that its hard to see the evidence objectively. Compare this case to some others: there are slam dunk cases, and then there are circumstantially very strong cases. I think this is the latter.

KC didn't hate Caylee. KC doesn't hate. KC doesn't feel love or hate. She only feels self-interest.

People are useful to KC, or they are not useful. That's how sociopaths think.

Caylee was in the way. Nothing personal. Caylee was a burden. Unless KC wanted to teach CA a lesson. That's spite, not hatred.

Maybe is WAS an accident. Maybe she drugged the baby too much. Maybe she accidently smothered the baby when she taped her mouth shut.

However, if she drugged Caylee, or taped her mouth, that is illegal. If death occurs as the result of an illegal act, it's still felony murder. If death results from any attempt to harm, it's felony murder.