Cause of Death - Charles and Braden Powell **Warning-Graphic Thread**

[buffetoflies]

Not necessarily. Some people have survived their throat slashed.

Yes, and also theoretically the heat from the fire could have cauterized the throat injury.

 

[SurfieTX]

In one of the articles (I believe from ABC), it says that he boxed up the boys' belongings and toys and donated them to a charity.

Who supplied this information to ABC? I mean, hello, red flag?

ETA: Here it is:

Just days before he killed himself and his two boys when they came to his Graham, Wash., home for what was supposed to be a supervised visit, Powell gave away his children's toys, police said today.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/josh-powell-gave-sons-toys-days-fatal-explosion/story?id=15520394

 

[annalia]

House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Ok, I think I need to go back and read, I'm getting confused about the reported facts as they happened.

Was it reported by the social worker that the house immediately exploded while she was at the car? Or was it reported that it it went up in flames while she was at the car but the actual explosion happened soon after? :waitasec:

And someone mentioned upthread about JP giving away his possessions, I thought he gave away the boys toys to Goodwill. Giving away toys wouldn't necessarily send off alarms, many parents clear out their children's toys and give them away when they've outgrown them. He may have told those at Goodwill that's what he was doing. Were there other possession he gave away?

 

[TexasCharm]

I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

Neither could those boys ...................... imo

 

[buffetoflies]

There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

But maybe they didn't get the voicemail earlier enough, or maybe his family is just thick or maybe they thought he would never do something like that so they did nothing. Maybe J sent the message so the boys would be saved, but no one replied so J took that to mean they didn't care about the boys so they died as well.

Hey, all we can do is speculate at this point...

 

[wenwe4]

Totally agree, wenwe4! Josh is the only one responsible. IMO he is a serial murderer.

There was most likely a clause in this SW's contract preventing carrying mobile phones on the job site for privacy reasons. So she had to run back to her car to retrieve her phone to dial authorities. And thank the good lord she survived! She bears no blame in this sad mess. MOO.

wm



Bless her heart

She probably had her cellphone on her but I doubt she even got one foot inside that door.

Thank you WM!

Just ask yourselves what would any of us do if the door was just slammed in your face and you just caught a whiff of gasoline and the children are in danger?

Bang on the door . . . . scream . . . . call for help . . . step back to see if you can see in the windows . . . . walk around to see if there is another way in . . . head out in the yard to talk to (supervisor/LE/911) whomever without Josh hearing you through the door . . . ????

We can all Monday Morning quarterback about how these children were failed . . . but we know Josh killed them (and I believe he killed Susan too).

 

[Paige SC]

Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

 

[Roselvr]

Josh was a sick; sick man that I hope he will rot in eternal hell for that. I'm going to puke.

 

[MayraMM]

I, too, wonder about the timeline. If the social worker was at the door immediately, s/he would have heard the kids scream or something. I suspect when the kids jumped out of the car, the social worker sat in the car for a moment maybe jotting down notes or making a phone call, perhaps reporting that they had arrived at the house; something. By the time s/he got to the door, the father would have already had time to kill the boys and light the house on fire; that's why it appeared to suddenly ignite to the social worker.

More concerning is since the father had this all planned out, he must have known the social worker wasn't going to come immediately to the door and would have those few minutes to act. In one report the social worker claims to have been stopped from entering, pushed out and the door slammed in his/her face, but if that were the case, then why wasn't that called in immediately?

I'm not trying to place blame with anyone other than the person responsible; just wondering if maybe things happened a little bit differently than reported.

 

[Paige SC]

Totally agree, wenwe4! Josh is the only one responsible. IMO he is a serial murderer.

There was most likely a clause in this SW's contract preventing carrying mobile phones on the job site for privacy reasons. So she had to run back to her car to retrieve her phone to dial authorities. And thank the good lord she survived! She bears no blame in this sad mess. MOO.

wm



Bless her heart

That clause makes zero sense to me based on the risk to the worker (if no one else) entering the home of an unstable parent. If this is a fact or if this is the norm, please supply a link to the the privacy clause/phone restrictions and how it outweighs the safety of the employee. And how it would violate the parents privacy by the worker having one on them to be used 'just in case' or in the event of an emergency. Privacy aside and contracts aside, unless the worker is planning on having their purse or briefcase searched before entering the home I'm quite sure most carry them even if they aren't suppose to.

 

[Cortne]

I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.

I totally agree. B*stard.

 

[the seeker]

The reason I think you are right (and I'm shaking as I write this) is that the murder was personal. The choice of a hatchet has got to the worst way to try and kill someone and to cause the most fear and suffering. It was to punish. Josh was a sadist. He wanted them to suffer and for that he will pay with his soul. They are not suffering now -- but he IS which is how it should be. Death did not end his suffering because his soul is in horrible torment being locked to the earth plane and having to reside on the lowest realms of hell where the beings torture each other.

HOW COULD THEY NOT PROTECT THESE BOYS?! Just how BIG of a sign did they need that something horrible was going to happen and this man was extremely unstable and a high suspect of his wife's murder?!! Not only that, he apparently drove around with her body in the trunk while he two sons rode along with it. And they said, "if only we knew" . OH PLEASE!

I agree. And what is even worse, since it was punishment, he would want them to know why they were being punished, which means he probably told them what he was going to do because "they told about mommy"....

WHY, as soon as it was revealed that they had told of "mommy" in the trunk, didnt they err on the side of caution and DISCONTINUE VISITATION. They should have been looked at as potential WITNESSES to a crime. Where in the HECK was their protection as witnesses? Arent children entitled to that? You wouldnt force an adult to be in the same room as someone who they may have witnessed committing murder, why force a child. UNEXCUSABLE.

 

[x_files]

So shes planning a supervised visit inside the house of a murder suspect. Not so unusual. She's apparently been to that house before. She would have had to reach the front door, knock on it, then turn around to go BACK to her car when the 'eruption' takes place. Seems to me (from a LOGICAL standpoint,) she would have her phone, purse, file folder with her when she approached the house initially. Why leave your phone in the car?

Something is missing in her accts. (not that she caused this). LE should have been used in this case it wasn't a friendly family supervised visitation it was extremely volatile. If i was the worker and asked to take the sons to Josh Powell's house I'd ask for an armed police officer to escort us.
I can't imagine CPS or the courts expecting an unarmed, untrained woman to defend the boys against Josh.
What were they thinking?
Not a fan of WA courts, judges and caseworkers right now. They have zero sensibility or common sense.

 

[mamamia54]

My question is, when those children began talking about mommy being in the trunk, and getting lost in the desert, why people surrounding those kids didn't keep that info quiet. Why didn't the lawyer keep that info from getting back to Josh? Or did they?

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

I am wondering if the same weapon used in his final living moments is the weapon that was used to give the "mommy ouchee" chest injury that Braden told his Great - Grandparents about in May 2010. Braden points to the chest of a picture of a woman in a magazine - saying "mommy ouchee".

In Chuck's September 23 2011 Declaration - Page 7 It is documented.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ac3x-Y_f8toJ:www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/603540.pdf+josh+powell+pdf&hl=en&gl=us

 

[MarthaM]

I, too, wonder about the timeline. If the social worker was at the door immediately, s/he would have heard the kids scream or something. I suspect when the kids jumped out of the car, the social worker sat in the car for a moment maybe jotting down notes or making a phone call, perhaps reporting that they had arrived at the house; something. By the time s/he got to the door, the father would have already had time to kill the boys and light the house on fire; that's why it appeared to suddenly ignite to the social worker.

More concerning is since the father had this all planned out, he must have known the social worker wasn't going to come immediately to the door and would have those few minutes to act. In one report the social worker claims to have been stopped from entering, pushed out and the door slammed in his/her face, but if that were the case, then why wasn't that called in immediately?

I'm not trying to place blame with anyone other than the person responsible; just wondering if maybe things happened a little bit differently than reported.

I'm sure a more specific timeline will gradually come out; right now we don't know many details of that.

But I wouldn't be so sure that the social worker (not sure if that's the right term, but the one accompanying the kids) would have heard screaming. JP may very well have told the kids to keep their mouths shut, or he may have moved so fast that they didn't even have time to make any sounds--especially something loud enough to be heard outside through closed doors and windows.

I doubt the SW was sitting in her car. My guess would be that she unbuckled the kids (or they did it themselves) and they bolted for their father. She was probably not far behind them, but far enough so that he could get them inside and slam/lock the door. It would have only taken seconds.

Had the SW been just a few steps closer, she would be dead, too.

 

[sherryk]

I has to take a nap due to being just so upset on this one.

As I went to sleep I was thinking what many of you posted.. the fire alone would of been enough. The hatchet.. he was angry at the boys for speaking up or in someway not being LOYAL to HIM..it is all a control issue..

So those little boys.. if it took two minutes for the house to catch a fire.. those apx 2 minutes were pure hell for them. I imagine he had to hold them down and probally had some strong words for them.

I bet being such a coward that JP is I am thinking he probally took some xanax or anti-aniexty drugs to perhaps keep himself from the jitters or so he woudlnt have to suffer so much.

I am so sick over this.. why why why his little boys.. a hatchet.. why would a man hurt his flesh and blood.

 

[DairyGirl]

Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?

What I don't understand about turning the utilities off, didn't he realize that the house would be demolished? There would be no utilities after it was gone. That just didn't make sense.

 

[TexasCharm]

There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

And ......... ?

I think the problem is that we are trying to inject logic into a warped depraved unlogical mind.

Who thinks it's ok to kill their wife and explains it away by saying they took their 2 and 4 year old boys camping in sub-zero weather on a Sunday night at midnight?

Who thinks it's ok to sell a house and move away while their wife is 'missing?'

Who doesn't put the needs of his children first and moves into his pedophile father's house?

Who keeps their children away from loving grandparents?

Who writes a huge declaration about what a wonderful parent they are and then lures his children in the house to slaughter them?

Who cares about whether the utilities are on or off after you have slaughtered your children and blown up yourself?

Who cares what happens to your money after your burning in hell?

Seriously, some of those things are part of the "plan" .. but this man was past thinking logically. There is NO WAY that he LOGICALLY believed that his children were better off dead than with the Coxes.

This is the thinking of a cornered, illogical, crazy man who was hanging onto a mere THREAD of his life.

Logic and worrying about the risks are out the window.... imo.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

BBM

The house was rigged with explosives, it was filled with gasoline fumes. When Josh ignited it the house blew up. That is just plain fact and based on the laws of chemistry and physics. You fill a container with anything that is flammable and there is enough O2 with it you will get an explosion when you ignite it.

Now if Josh had filled the house with natural gas and lit it you would get an explosion and small fires and sometimes people in those homes walk out scorched and injured but usually the explosion just causes small spot fires.

Because Josh soaked the house with gasoline the fire kept burning after the explosion and since the boys were not killed in the initial explosion and they had been struck with an axe they laid there and breathed in their last breathes of monoxide and their hearts stopped.