Caylee Anthony Drowned In Family Pool Theory

[Woe.be.gone]

The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the *advertiser censored**ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

If ladder day was June 23rd then GA did not mention it to LE. Also read Debbie's interview again - Yuri manages to lead her to the conclusion that the story told to her by CA about the ladder came first and that "A COUPLE OF DAYS LATER' she heard the story about the gas cans. Yuri uses the date June 23 as gas can day (he may have been thinking about the day they were taken versus when GA reported them gone).

Keep in mind, I personally don't care what the answer turns out to be - no agenda - just want to know the truth based on the evidence.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Cindy was in an interview with Greta Van Susteren that aired on August 7, 2008 where she talked about the ladder and the pool.
I have not been able to find the interview, maybe someone else can. But, my own personal notes about it say:

"Cindy later reports in an interview with Greta Van Susteren on August 7th that the ladder to the pool, which she had removed from the pool on Sunday, was up against the pool again on this day (Monday June 16) when she got home. Cindy assigns no importance "not at all" to the ladder being in the pool."

If someone can find it, it would be interesting to review it, since it was directly from Cindy.

I looked on the Fox website last night and these interviews are "temporarily unavailable". There are many interviews in print but I couldn't find any referencing the ladder. Also very few videos are accessible. I would like to see that interview again also.

Also the telephone call info that CA made to LE if irrc (she called to report her recollection of the ladder/gate day).

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the *advertiser censored**ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

My guess is that CA discovered that the shed had been broken into when she got home from work on the 23rd and immediately called GA. GA, after stewing about it overnight, decided to call LE the next morning. In the meantime, CA tried to reach KC as CA knew it was KC who took the gas AGAIN.

 

[justsaying]

I don't know, but I am not convinced that the pool ladder incident and gate open incident ever really happened. I kind of think that Cindy was throwing out every idea she could brainstorm so as to lessen Casey's direct involvement in whatever happened to Caylee. Remember at the very beginning when she asked Casey, "what have you done?" (from interview with Lee)? Then she helps her daughter by furnishing a possible answer to her own question, with "who took her". I think Cindy has a long history of furnishing Casey with answers to her questions which she wants to hear. And Casey just parrots the answers which are acceptable to mama even if they aren't true. I think Cindy taught Casey to lie to her from early on in her life. So, unless they have dated pictures of the ladder off the pool and then back on, I am inclined to think that this is another figment of Cindy's imagination running amuck.

 

[LambChop]

Maybe we are missing the obvious here. If KC was seen back at the house by the neighbor she borrowed the shovel from it is possible after getting rid of bag she was dirty from the swamp and rather than go into the house and shower which might alert her mother that she was there KC went into the pool. Anything she had on her body, dirt, decomp would be destroyed by the chlorine in the pool and just maybe she forgot to put the ladder away after she was through.

Clearly someone tried to dig a hole in the yard next to the foundation and stopped. Too much work. Maybe dragged the chest over by the pool to get it out of the way. Decides to take the bag back to the car and dump the bag down the street (because it's daytime and not much time), comes back all sweaty, dirty, jumps into the pool gets out and changes her clothes and returns the shovel but does not have time to go back into the backyard thereby forgetting she left the ladder in the pool and did not lock the gate. Sounds like something your kids do when you have told them not to go into the pool and have friends over while you are not home. They always leave little clues, now don't they? JMO

 

[domini201]

The only reason I think this was not an accidental death is because of the searches on the internet by KC. I do possibly think that she tried to stage an accidental drowning but changed her mind. Maybe she thought that the she could explain away the chloroform away with chemicals in the pool.

 

[KenoshaKid]

Didn't the cadaver dogs hit in the back yard? And why does she need a shovel on the 19th? Caylee would have been dead for at least 3-4 days, correct? What was she digging up or burying in the back yard? The flurry of calls tells us something happened that caused her to need to contact CA. That's why I thought of an accident, or she forgot her in a hot car and then wasn't thinking and emerged her in the pool, thinking it would help, when it didn't she tried to call CA. Or it is another ruse as someone said. I don't know why she would kill Caylee, and then call her mother, doesn't make sense. But KC doesn't make sense either.

My bold.
We discussed this a while back and I think it was JWG who pointed out that the "flurry of calls" was not isolated to this day; it was something that KC did on more than one occasion. The general consensus was the flurry was KC looking for a baby sitter for that evening. And, we know she didn't find one.

 

[LandAuxvasse]

I do believe the ladder was a ruse by Casey to stage an accident. Could it be that Casey was setting the stage of an accident to tell her parents, but when she went to retrieve Caylee's body, it was too decomposed to allow it?

 

[iamkimba]

Unless- and I really can't figure this out folks, I am so confused based on actions and reactions as to who knew what, when, why and how..
unless there was some fabrication on George's part when he helpfully told LE about the ladder, that he was somehow setting up an accident scenario, after telling LE that he recognized the smell, the whole "please don't let this be my Caylee"-
so
bear with me please:
the ladder/pool incident never happened-
he knew already that Caylee was gone, he was semi truthfully telling LE this- and also setting up the accident scenario to help cover up for Casey. IIRC-As he said he didn't want to lose 2. ( Caylee/Casey)
and as we have seen from KC- there is a nugget of truth in every lie she's told.

I see that we are on the same page, LandAuxVasse!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

GA gave the following account of his recollection of the ladder four days after he talked to the FBI.

He spoke to Detectives Hussey and Edwards.

Preceeding where I begin here, he recounts a version of the gas gan incident in case anybody is interested. The questioning then continues as follows -

Q - ... Um, 16th and 7th, or 15th, 16th I think we have that pretty well (inaudible). We needed this week of the gas cans. Um someone mentioned a ladder incident in the backyard with the pool. is there something uh, some...?

A - Right after we called in about our granddaughter being missing, it might have been the 2nd or 3rd day, my wife and I were walking around the house thinking, every little thing that might could have happened. That's ....

Q - That's the 15th.

A - Right as gruesome as it could have been we're thinking, you hate to think about your own child

(Dectective Hussey)

Q - Of course.

A - And she said, "You know George I hope she didn't, something happened, she didn't panic, Caylee could a got outside real quick." And we are very religious, not in the, in the form I wanna say at the moment but we're very, very detailed on the ladder, we have an above ground pool. Whenever we're done with that pool, we don't get in there every single day but we take the ladder off. I set it to the side and we just make sure that that's always taken care of. My gate is always locked. Though I have the one entrance we have in and out of our gate. I'm, I'm, I'm good about that. But one specific day and I can't remember which day it was, my wife called and was *****ing me out, "George did you leave the gate open inside", "No". "Well did you go swimming today". "No". "Well the ladder's on, the gates open". I'm like, "Well I didn't do it". I don't know exact date it was.

(Detective Edwards)

Q - Right.

A - All I know I was working, it could have been 6, 7:00 at night, I wish I could be specific. I ....

Q - So when you guys discussed that on the 15th it was just a recollection of some time in the past?

A - Right.

Q - Any time in that, months prior?

A - Yeah it, it could have been any time within that and that's the reason we passed it on to uh, Detective Yurich and uh, Melich, you know to let him know that we just had a bad feeling. Maybe something happened, we don't know. You hate to think that but it was just, because when you don't talk to one little special person in your life, when you don't hear her little voice for weeks and upon a time, 2 or 3 weeks upon a time you just, you start thinking different things. As crazy as that might sound.

END OF POOL SUBJECT WITHIN TRANSCRIPT (also grammer, commas, etc. is the way it is in the transcript).


No concrete answers here about ladder/gate dates but George sure lets on that everything wasn't worry free surrounding the issue of Caylee being gone from the house (as CA and GA would like everyone to believe now.)

The impression I get from GA regarding the ladder is that CA claims to have found it up and the gate open and in an accusatory fashion digs into GA about it. What would be the big deal if Caylee was not living there if this really happened? If it wasn't on June 15 or16, what's the problem since Caylee was already gone with KC after that time.

Anyway this interview doesn't pinpoint a date either before or after the gas can date. What it does say is that GA claims to have been worried and has selective amnesia to an extent regarding timeline issues. Also, unless I've missed it, GA never claims to have witnessed the ladder up or the gate open - these observations were made by CA and inturn she accuses GA according to him.

I recall that CA writes about not being able to believe George - she says he claims he was at work - I think she writes this to KC on MS as she is pondering where her Caylee is. Maybe CA is referring to the gate/pool incident when she wrote these thoughts.

Confusion about the dates may be because GA mentions that CA and him discussed the possibility of a pool accident after KC had already been arrested which of course was after gas can day. I haven't seen where he ever says that the ladder was found up after the date the gas cans had been taken.

The above interview can be found on the Official Docs. Thread, Post 63.
GA August 4, 2008. Pages 28-9.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I don't think that has ever been established one way or the other actually. The reports from Dr. G says it was placed before decomposition (decomp starts rather rapidly after death but Dr. G once again was vague and didn't state a level of decomp either). I don't think there has been any reports one way or the other as for the tape being placed before or after Caylee was deceased. Although looking at Dr. G's vague report it would be easy to assume it was placed before death. It also sounded that in the hearing where Mr. Ashton explained Caylee's death that the SA's office believes the tape was placed before she was deceased. I'm personally in the ballpark of the tape being placed on a live/drugged Caylee much the way the SA described.

I do not believe this was an accident or Casey would have said so the moment she was arrested imho. That or the defense would have enacted Casey's speedy trial rights and pushed the accident theory and this trial would more then likely be done and over with by now. There is a reason that didn't happen. To me there are just to many factors working against any kind of accident theory.

Yes, Marspiter, it hasn't been established about the duct tape was applied before Caylee died or after, I need to believe, Inmate Anthony wasn't that cold hearted and suffocated Caylee by way of that duct tape. It takes so long to die via suffocation and I don't want to believe Caylee suffered from 4-7 minutes...so, what I'm hoping is she placed the duct tape over Caylee for affect, KWIM??

I don't believe it was an accident, either. I truly believe hatred, rage, freedom are the top reasons why Inmate Anthony thought her life would be better without Caylee in tow.

Justice for Caylee

 

[TallyHo]

Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

Sorry - no pictures of an inside gate yet, but I took a look again at the D. Bennet interview and she is specific that it was a side gate and that Cindy was specifically worried about losing the dogs (presumably to the road, etc). Could George have modified that story slightly to give an accident plausibility? (I still say it is noteworthy also that if they were mulling accident theories around, they did not believe the Zanny the Nanny story, but that is not relevant to the pool discussion...)

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

:waitasec: I've always assumed the A's were referring to the gate leading out from their backyard, past the garage door, along side their house. That would be the conditions needed to set up a circumstance (to set the stage) that someone had entered the yard (how would they unlock the gate though?), set the ladder by the pool and then exit the yard leaving the ladder there and the gate open when they left. Why would they do this? Teenagers jump fences. Maybe CA did find the yard this way when she came home from work (the 16th?). But on that day she did not think it had anything to do with Casey or Caylee. CA probably just thought is was GA being irresponsible and was annoyed because of the dogs. GA says she called him at work at 6-7PM but he can't recall the date. GA did go to work on the 16th.

George is adamant that HE ALWAYS LOCKED THIS GATE even though it's the single entrance in and out of the yard (although one could walk through the back of the house as Bond points out). I'm thinking the inside/outside comment was GA getting confused regarding what side of the gate the lock is on. What side would it be on? Would one have it on the inside or outside of the gate or both? I picture a lock on the inside - no? Wouldn't one lock themselves in, not out?

I never thought they were referring to a child's gate. IMO, at Caylee's age, she could break the code on that type of gate with no problem. Anyhow, GA would not be able to 'lock' this type of gate. Unless it's one of those accordian type stainless steel thingy's that is bolted on one side and actually locks on the other side like a patio door does. GA has talked about how Caylee knew how to open the sliding door which is why they said they moved the big resin trunk like storage box away from the poolside.

Now I'm more confused than ever which I didn't think was possible - ha!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Sorry - no pictures of an inside gate yet, but I took a look again at the D. Bennet interview and she is specific that it was a side gate and that Cindy was specifically worried about losing the dogs (presumably to the road, etc). Could George have modified that story slightly to give an accident plausibility? (I still say it is noteworthy also that if they were mulling accident theories around, they did not believe the Zanny the Nanny story, but that is not relevant to the pool discussion...)

Imagine this though, if KC left the yard in that condition on the 16th, the A's didn't know anything yet - that Caylee would be gone forever. Then, as time went on and KC kept keeping Caylee from them, they began to think differently about the day they found the gate open/pool ladder up. By July 15th, the condition of the backyard took on new meaning.

My wish for Caylee, since I know she is deceased, is that her death was an accidental drowning. I know most people hate KC and want to see her fry, but for Caylee's sake, I would prefer she died without having to look into the eyes of an evil mother, etc. The crime then becomes what did KC and family do afterward to cause the tragedy to become such a fiasco.

 

[thelmadawg]

Seems to me, this family from the start were having trouble with the dates. GA states he knows for sure last time he was in that shed was June 22..by the 24th, he saw the shed broken into.

I don't know that Caylee would have been strong enough to move the ladder to the pool. They haven't mentioned when they saw the ladder by the pool after knowing CA took it away, was it snapped back on or did it just stand up next to the pool, Inmate Anthony might have been preoccupied on the phone, texting or sexting...and Caylee feel in??? Would she not hear the splashing or Caylee cry out??? IDK if the pool even plays a part in Caylee's death. I truly believe after that huge altercation which turned physical, June 15th, evening, Imate Anthony took all her rage out for her mother on precious Caylee..

KC's statement to LA: "Guess I'm just a spiteful bi*ch," says it all to me. I've always felt if there were a drowning, it was no accident, and the initial flurry of calls were to create a coverup accident scenario. When CA and GA couldn't be reached, the plan failed and with no plan she just did what was expedient --Caylee to the trunk and off she went . . .

IMHO, as always.

 

[Pensfan]

I used to wonder if Caylee did accidently drown and if the duct tape wasn't KC's attempt to cover her *advertiser censored** and try to make the death appear to be someone else's fault (like an evil kidnapper). KC's comment of "I guess I'm just a spiteful *advertiser censored*" was a variant of a Freudian slip. This statement convinced me that Caylee didn't die as an accident, but rather KC killed her to punish her mother, CA.

 

[Harmony 2]

My bold.
We discussed this a while back and I think it was JWG who pointed out that the "flurry of calls" was not isolated to this day; it was something that KC did on more than one occasion. The general consensus was the flurry was KC looking for a baby sitter for that evening. And, we know she didn't find one.

Part of the time the flurry of calls occurs Casey is traveling on the road. She also talks to Tony and Jesse during this time. This negates the theory that these calls were because of an emergency in my mind. The summary, for the flurry of calls in this article, coincides with our ping map.

But at 4:11 p.m., Anthony began trying to reach her mother, Cindy Anthony, making four attempts in two minutes, according to records. Anthony then traveled north from her parents' home and called Lazzaro for one minute at 4:19 p.m., Pipitone reported. Two minutes later, she talked to Grund for a minute, and tried to call her mother again at 4:25 p.m., Pipitone said.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17931576/detail.html

 

[skygirl]

I am certain we have been over this and I prolly just need a refresher, but why is it impossible that this stain and the chloroform were a result of pool chemicals? I know that the Anthony's pool cleaner did not contain chlorine, that much I remember-But how does the chemical that they did use breakdown? How would it appear under "black light"?
The ladder stories, the extreme matting of the hair, the cadaver dog hits by the pool...there are a couple of other things that could still point back to the pool, though tying in the placement of three pieces of duct tape over the breathing orafices shortly before or after drowning Caylee is a little tricky.

Also, TMc's hearsay statement regarding what KC told her about the whole: using-the-shovel-to-retreive-pool-ladder-out-of-the-pool-story, too? Hmmmm :waitasec:

little ot but goes with stain therory too. Imo

ETA: This would fall under your "ladder stories"

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

After reviewing the A's Home and Floor Plan thread, I noticed that the sliding doors on the back of the house lead to the Sunroom and that the Sunroom has two separate single doors (an outside type screen/storm door) that one would use to access the backyard (one of the doors is pictured in Post. 247 of the floor plans thread, the other door is pictured on the generated home plans image, post 477).

Has it been previously discussed that the Master Bedroom has a sliding glass patio door too? If Caylee was napping on the bed in that room and woke up, she could exit via the Sunroom into the backyard essentially unnoticed from other rooms in the house (see Home Plans posts 686 or 690 which are created images and posts 865 or 879 which are pictures of the A's Master bedroom). Both sets of sliding doors, MB and GR, lead out to the Sunroom first. There are two normal sized doors that one can use to exit the Sunroom to the backyard. It looks to me that from other rooms in the house, one may not notice a person going into the backyard through the MB/SR path. If you're sitting in the GR, you cannot see the pool unless you walk out into the Sunroom (see posts 530, 535, 554 or 849/852 in the Home Plans thread).

Lastly, the tall wooden fence adjacent to the garage has a gate that blends in with the fence when looking at it from the street. There is no visible lock, therefore, I conclude the lock on the gate is on the inside of the gate, within the backyard. (Post 130 A's House Plans).