Caylee's "Mama" Doll

[RR0004]

Absence of blowflies establishes that Caylee's body was never in the backyard and that decomp must've been xfer'd there by an article. Absence of a trail indicates it wasn't by shoe.

The depression size would make more sense to be associated w/ something the size of mama doll & stench would've compelled burying it.

Could've been buried by Casey 6/18 and recovered later by Casey a family member OR buried & recovered by a family member 7/16-7/17. If the later, then playhouse was quick temporary 7/15-7/16.

Makes little sense for Casey to focus on this alone 6/18 unless the doll itself was directly used as some have speculated.

Hose reel move shown in pic of side of house~7/16 9PM IIRC and k9 alert near playhouse from washing off the doll and pooling of wash water in that area.

FWIW, 7/16 pings when it is believed Lee had the phone illustrate a possible..errand..ahem.

BJB...can you be more specific about the pings? (Sorry...lazy Saturday)

I recently watched a youtube video that showed the backyard during the search. I hadn't realized how many red flags had been planted.

 

[Just Jayla]

Anyone familiar w/ the search warrants able to tell me if they ever specified looking for or locating the older doll or any doll clothing.

I'm coming late to the realization there is a second doll...and now believe the older doll was likely the source of K-9 alerts in the playhouse and/or by pool in a 7/15-7/17 game of get-rid-of-the-decomp-smell doll (and perhaps the knife).

I don't believe they did specify in the warrants, but there are pictures that LE took that show at least two dolls (one looks like a cabbage patch kid) hanging at the end of Caylee's bed.

 

[treeseeker]

Anyone familiar w/ the search warrants able to tell me if they ever specified looking for or locating the older doll or any doll clothing.

I'm coming late to the realization there is a second doll...and now believe the older doll was likely the source of K-9 alerts in the playhouse and/or by pool in a 7/15-7/17 game of get-rid-of-the-decomp-smell doll (and perhaps the knife).

Here, pg 17/18 or 3170:
http://www.wftv.com/news/18530424/detail.html

asks for doll clothing that would fit the doll found in the Pontiac

 

[Just Jayla]

Absence of blowflies establishes that Caylee's body was never in the backyard and that decomp must've been xfer'd there by an article. Absence of a trail indicates it wasn't by shoe.

The depression size would make more sense to be associated w/ something the size of mama doll & stench would've compelled burying it.

Could've been buried by Casey 6/18 and recovered later by Casey a family member OR buried & recovered by a family member 7/16-7/17. If the later, then playhouse was quick temporary 7/15-7/16.

Makes little sense for Casey to focus on this alone 6/18 unless the doll itself was directly used as some have speculated.

Hose reel move shown in pic of side of house~7/16 9PM IIRC and k9 alert near playhouse from washing off the doll and pooling of wash water in that area.

FWIW, 7/16 pings when it is believed Lee had the phone illustrate a possible..errand..ahem.

Why is the newer doll noticeably absent from LE pics/docs? Would the state still be holding on to that evidence, or could it have been sealed without our noticing a motion?
If the defense knows about a doll, that KC or the A's had handled a doll after Caylee's death, why is AL challenging the state to show them "the money" in their latest motions (filed 11/25 per iclerk?)?
There would be nothing mitigating about KC & family covering up her crime by hiding evidence, so if the defense knows anyhting about more evidence like this (potentially), how could AL hope to outweight the aggravating circumstances-no matter what the instructions to the jury are?

 

[Just Jayla]

Absence of blowflies establishes that Caylee's body was never in the backyard and that decomp must've been xfer'd there by an article. Absence of a trail indicates it wasn't by shoe.

The depression size would make more sense to be associated w/ something the size of mama doll & stench would've compelled burying it.

Could've been buried by Casey 6/18 and recovered later by Casey a family member OR buried & recovered by a family member 7/16-7/17. If the later, then playhouse was quick temporary 7/15-7/16.

Makes little sense for Casey to focus on this alone 6/18 unless the doll itself was directly used as some have speculated.

Hose reel move shown in pic of side of house~7/16 9PM IIRC and k9 alert near playhouse from washing off the doll and pooling of wash water in that area.

FWIW, 7/16 pings when it is believed Lee had the phone illustrate a possible..errand..ahem.

BTW, thanks for this post!

There could be a lot of information in that backyard, if one or two pieces are added to the picture...

 

[treeseeker]

IMO if the doll was hosed or immersed 7/15ish, it would have still been quite damp. It has a cloth body, and eye openings into the hollow head. It would have been obvious.
Doesn't rule out burial in a bag, or earlier washing.

 

[treeseeker]

Not as OT as might first appear: is there a WS timeline for CA 7/15? I think we got some of her phone info didn't we?

 

[JBean]

Not as OT as might first appear: is there a WS timeline for CA 7/15? I think we got some of her phone info didn't we?

Did you look in the timeline analysis forum?

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=233"]Anthony Case Resource Links, Case Calendar and Time Line Analysis Forum - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[treeseeker]

Mr. Bond did a timeline for C and G 7/15, post #16:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74429"]Ping Map for July 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[BondJamesBond]

Mr. Bond did a timeline for C and G 7/15, post #16:

Ping Map for July 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks, treeseeker. JWG did a superior 7/15 timeline here...color-coded...a thing of beauty :thumb: : [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3771249&postcount=84"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ping Map for July 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only[/ame]

FWIW...stayin' focused on "Mama" doll...there was ample time & opportunity to do what was needed...IF indeed it was done. I'm having a tough time why any of the Anthony's (Cindy specifically) would be compelled to insert a 'mama' doll if one had to be removed. IOW...why not just let it disappear...unless Simon or someone else had witnessed it.

BTW...suggesting that the older 'mama' would be the one that disappeared and the newer, cloth-bodied, eye-closing/opening 'mama' would be the stand-in IYKWIM.

I'm just playin' Captain Obvious here. Flip-floppin' on nefarious or non-nefarious involvement of G&C&L post-7/15...I'm inclined to say not...but w/ fly evidence...gas cans is the only thing that gets contamination to the backyard short of carpet cleaning or 'mama'. I was ok w/ gas cans...'till I noodled a bit on burying a 'mama' doll might better explain the size of the depression AND a K9 alert AND a playhouse alert.

 

[treeseeker]

Thanks, treeseeker. JWG did a superior 7/15 timeline here...color-coded...a thing of beauty :thumb: : Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ping Map for July 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only

FWIW...stayin' focused on "Mama" doll...there was ample time & opportunity to do what was needed...IF indeed it was done. I'm having a tough time why any of the Anthony's (Cindy specifically) would be compelled to insert a 'mama' doll if one had to be removed. IOW...why not just let it disappear...unless Simon or someone else had witnessed it.

BTW...suggesting that the older 'mama' would be the one that disappeared and the newer, cloth-bodied, eye-closing/opening 'mama' would be the stand-in IYKWIM.

I'm just playin' Captain Obvious here. Flip-floppin' on nefarious or non-nefarious involvement of G&C&L post-7/15...I'm inclined to say not...but w/ fly evidence...gas cans is the only thing that gets contamination to the backyard short of carpet cleaning or 'mama'. I was ok w/ gas cans...'till I noodled a bit on burying a 'mama' doll might better explain the size of the depression AND a K9 alert AND a playhouse alert.

Oh, I missed the doll switch idea (can I plead turkey?) - and I'm in total agreement that understanding this whole backyard process is important. It's the main reason I keep reservations about G&C's intents.

 

[cloud9]

Wow yeah. Both the doll and the knife that CA handed over to LE have "doubles" (or more - the steak knife belonged to a boxed set of probably 6-8 and several people have indicated up to three mama dolls seen in the hanging basket in Caylee's room.) Either of them could have easily had substitutions to LE.

2-3 Mama Dolls
2 knives
2 cell phones (incl. missing BlackJack)

Hmmm...

 

[JWG]

Anyone familiar w/ the search warrants able to tell me if they ever specified looking for or locating the older doll or any doll clothing.

I'm coming late to the realization there is a second doll...and now believe the older doll was likely the source of K-9 alerts in the playhouse and/or by pool in a 7/15-7/17 game of get-rid-of-the-decomp-smell doll (and perhaps the knife).

The Dec. 20th warrant specified looking for doll clothing. That is the only warrant that mentions the doll.

O/T...in reading the warrant I see again mention of the toy horse "found at the scene". Yet, I have never seen a property sheet listing such a horse, or an evidence photo showing such a horse.

What gives? :waitasec:

 

[Reagan]

2-3 Mama Dolls
2 knives
2 cell phones (incl. missing BlackJack)

Hmmm...

2-3(?) car seats

 

[Theonly1]

*If the Mama Doll was injected with something*, could it be that Casey showed Caylee that Mama Doll could take her medicine so Caylee would struggle less when it came to be her time for injection?

 

[BondJamesBond]

*If the Mama Doll was injected with something*, could it be that Casey showed Caylee that Mama Doll could take her medicine so Caylee would struggle less when it came to be her time for injection?

:twocents: Syringe unrelated :twocents: IMHO, etc, etc. Amen.

 

[BondJamesBond]

...I know I'm really reachin'.

I CAN imagine Cindy removing a decomp-reeking 'mama' to protect Casey.
I CAN'T imagine Cindy being compelled to replace it w/ another doll unless it had been witnessed by Simon, or someone else, to be in the car, hence, a stand-in was needed.

I CAN'T imagine Casey making any effort to switch out the dolls...only to get rid of one that somehow needed to be trashed...and then there would be (a) no reason for it not to be tossed w/ the remains and (b) no reason to provide a stand-in. Only thing I can think of would be Casey seeing it in the car 7/15 @ home and knowing it was decomp-soaked, etc. AFTER G&C saw it...and before she was arrested 7/16 ~4PM. :shakehead: Naaaaah.

:banghead:

 

[Just Jayla]

I cannot remember what all items ChrisS had with him that he brought back to CA-I know he had some of Caylee's swimming gear, wonder if KC planted anything else over at his house.
Still thinking hard on this one, but I am also thinking Mama could have spent some time in that back yard, maybe in the sandbox-I keep going back to the sandbox because we have an empty bag of play sand found at the remains site per the chain of evidence listings.
BJB, your account is getting very warm, I think.

 

[Just Jayla]

...I know I'm really reachin'.

I CAN imagine Cindy removing a decomp-reeking 'mama' to protect Casey.
I CAN'T imagine Cindy being compelled to replace it w/ another doll unless it had been witnessed by Simon, or someone else, to be in the car, hence, a stand-in was needed.

I CAN'T imagine Casey making any effort to switch out the dolls...only to get rid of one that somehow needed to be trashed...and then there would be (a) no reason for it not to be tossed w/ the remains and (b) no reason to provide a stand-in. Only thing I can think of would be Casey seeing it in the car 7/15 @ home and knowing it was decomp-soaked, etc. AFTER G&C saw it...and before she was arrested 7/16 ~4PM. :shakehead: Naaaaah.

:banghead:

I'm with you, but I also don't see why CA would have even mentioned the pants or the knife to LE, either-Again, unless Simon noticed this or....wait a minute-When cars get towed, don't many towing companies make an accounting of the items they find in the car at the time of impound?

 

[Just Jayla]

Please help me with this, guys....Did the tow company take an inventory? this was not a repo, but could be the SOP of the tow company:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_be_charged_for_retrieving_personal_items_from_a_repossessed_car

regarding Florida law regarding personal property:


493.6404 Property inventory; vehicle license identification numbers.--
(1) If personal effects or other property not covered by a security agreement are contained in or on a recovered vehicle, mobile home, motorboat, aircraft, personal watercraft, all-terrain vehicle, farm equipment, or industrial equipment at the time it is recovered, a complete and accurate inventory shall be made of such personal effects or property. The date and time the inventory is made shall be indicated, and it shall be signed by the Class "E" or Class "EE" licensee who obtained the personal property. The inventory of the personal property and the records regarding any disposal of personal property shall be maintained for a period of 2 years in the permanent records of the licensed agency and shall be made available, upon demand, to an authorized representative of the department engaged in an official investigation.
(2) Within 5 working days after the date of a repossession, the Class "E" or Class "EE" licensee shall give written notification to the debtor of the whereabouts of personal effects or other property inventoried pursuant to this section. At least 45 days prior to disposing of such personal effects or other property, the Class "E" or Class "EE" licensee shall, by United States Postal Service proof of mailing or certified mail, notify the debtor of the intent to dispose of said property. Should the debtor, or her or his lawful designee, appear to retrieve the personal property, prior to the date on which the Class "E" or Class "EE" licensee is allowed to dispose of the property, the licensee shall surrender the personal property to that individual upon payment of any reasonably incurred expenses for inventory and storage. If personal property is not claimed within 45 days of the notice of intent to dispose, the licensee may dispose of the personal property at her or his discretion, except that illegal items or contraband shall be surrendered to a law enforcement agency, and the licensee shall retain a receipt or other proof of surrender as part of the inventory and disposal records she or he maintains.