Christina Noudga Trial Thread 11.22.16

[ABro]

I think you are not understanding your link about the agreed statement of facts. In the statement of facts, its pretty clear in final line #32 what she told police. She did all of this while maintaining she did not know Bosma has been murdered.

So the facts that were agreed upon were, in a statement to police she admitted to actions that may have assisted Millard and they were done not knowing Bosma had been murdered.

How can this be any more unclear?

Multiple publications wrote about this:

CBC:
"In an agreed statement of facts (which can be viewed here), the Crown noted there was no direct evidence that when Noudga was assisting Millard, she knew that he had killed Bosma"

Ok, it seems that along with misreading the agreed statement of facts, you don't understand what direct evidence is either. There are two types of evidence -- direct and circumstantial. (Google it for far better explanations than I can provide.)

Neither is better or worse than the other. They are simply different.

You are right that Fraser said was there was "no direct evidence Noudga knew (Millard) had murdered Tim Bosma." I provided that quote myself because unlike you I am not cherry picking and misquoting to spread misinformation. What you missed is that Fraser went on to say “the triable issue” was about intent and proof of knowledge, that the "Crown's case was circumstantial," and that "the Crown was in a strong position to prove the facts."

Circumstantial cases are won (and lost) every single day. Direct evidence is not some kind of magical talisman or Mark Smich, who gave direct evidence that he was innocent, would be a free man.

The narrative propagated by Greenspan that no one believes Noudga knew is simply his attempt to rehabilitate his client. It is not backed up by what was said in court or what is stated in the the agreed statement of facts, which people can read for themselves. I can tell you for a fact that many people in that courtroom believed Noudga knew as do many people outside the courtroom.

While you are certainly entitled to your very legitimate opinion that she didn't know, you are not entitled to make up facts based on your misunderstanding of evidence and misquoting the agreed statement of facts.

 

[THXGuru]

Ok, it seems that along with misreading the agreed statement of facts, you don't understand what direct evidence is either. There are two types of evidence -- direct and circumstantial. (Google it for far better explanations than I can provide.)

Neither is better or worse than the other. They are simply different.

You are right that Fraser said was there was "no direct evidence Noudga knew (Millard) had murdered Tim Bosma." I provided that quote myself because unlike you I am not cherry picking and misquoting to spread misinformation. What you missed is that Fraser went on to say “the triable issue” was about intent and proof of knowledge, that the "Crown's case was circumstantial," and that "the Crown was in a strong position to prove the facts."

Circumstantial cases are won (and lost) every single day. Direct evidence is not some kind of magical talisman or Mark Smich, who gave direct evidence that he was innocent, would be a free man.

The narrative propagated by Greenspan that no one believes Noudga knew is simply his attempt to rehabilitate his client. It is not backed up by what was said in court or what is stated in the the agreed statement of facts, which people can read for themselves. I can tell you for a fact that many people in that courtroom believed Noudga knew as do many people outside the courtroom.

While you are certainly entitled to your very legitimate opinion that she didn't know, you are not entitled to make up facts based on your misunderstanding of evidence and misquoting the agreed statement of facts.

You need to read the link you posted. You are completely wrong. The statement of facts show that when CN gave the statement to police, she did not know TB was murdered. The paper quoted it, I quoted it.

 

[ABro]

You need to read the link you posted. You are completely wrong. The statement of facts show that when CN gave the statement to police, she did not know TB was murdered. The paper quoted it, I quoted it.

Once again and for the very last time, there is nothing in the agreed statement of facts that backs up what you say. That's why you are unable to quote the relevant section of the Statement that supports your mistaken belief. Instead, you keep referencing paraphrasings of the statement from news organizations and twisting their words in futile attempts to support your misreading.
Here is what the agreed statement says:

32. In her arrest statement to police, Noudga admitted to her actions as set out in these facts. Noudga maintains that any acts which may have assisted Millard were done not knowing that Tim Bosma had been murdered. However, her actions may have left the impression that Millard could continue to count on her.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3224174-Christina-Noudga-agreed-statement-of-facts

All the statement says is that Noudga claims not have known -- not that Noudga didn't know. It's that moon/cheese thing that keeps eluding you.

ETA: I see there is a reference in the statement that I previously overlooked:

There is no evidence that there was a discussion between Noudga and Millard as to what was in the trailer or why it was being taken to Millard's mother's.

This in no way is the same thing as saying that Noudga did not know Tim Bosma had been murdered nor is the CBC's paraphrasing of this quote, cited above, accurate in my assessment.

For the record, Noudga always maintained she was not guilty as an accessory after the fact to murder, and, of course, that charge was dropped.

 

[swedie]

She closed her fb and untagged all of her photos on fb after TB's murder and yet kept other social media open after her arrest.

How did she meet DM again? Was it via AM?

Yes, CN met DM through AM. AM and MH were friends and MH introduced some of his friends to DM. It was MH's grandmother who kept house for the Millard's and took care of Della near the end of her life. LB and CN were friends and also friends of AM. Then LB started talking to friends about her relationship with DM and that destroyed LB and CN's friendship. CN was dating DM when LB was telling others about hers and DM's relationship. MOO.

 

[Georgeo]

CN most likely knew, but we will never know for sure. Suffice to say that she is not an innocent. She knew of the thefts, drugs, etc. yet, she continued her relationship with DM, even though she suspected he was fooling around on her. Why? Thrill of it? Knowing he was a bad boy excited her? Naive? Only she knows why she did the things she did. Holding onto evidence after his arrest? Dumb move. Writing letters back and forth was another stupid move.

What at is it about DM that made her behave this way?

And Marlens Meneses. Hanging out and living with a loser like MS?? Why??? She told him not to go and steal truck with DM. Why? Did she know murder was in the plan??? Lots of questions and no answers.

 

[mskrisc]

So no trips over the border to do any outlet or ammunition shopping? Poor thing.

Especially not the US! They are very strict about anyone entering with any type of criminal record OR conviction.


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[THXGuru]

CN most likely knew, but we will never know for sure. Suffice to say that she is not an innocent. She knew of the thefts, drugs, etc. yet, she continued her relationship with DM, even though she suspected he was fooling around on her. Why? Thrill of it? Knowing he was a bad boy excited her? Naive? Only she knows why she did the things she did. Holding onto evidence after his arrest? Dumb move. Writing letters back and forth was another stupid move.

What at is it about DM that made her behave this way?

And Marlens Meneses. Hanging out and living with a loser like MS?? Why??? She told him not to go and steal truck with DM. Why? Did she know murder was in the plan??? Lots of questions and no answers.

I don't think she knew at first. It wasn't until they were at the hotel that she knew or had the assumption. She may have believed it was Smich who did for a long while afterwards.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I don't think she knew at first. It wasn't until they were at the hotel that she knew or had the assumption. She may have believed it was Smich who did for a long while afterwards.

Curious to know what makes you think CN didn't know at first.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

Yes, CN met DM through AM. AM and MH were friends and MH introduced some of his friends to DM. It was MH's grandmother who kept house for the Millard's and took care of Della near the end of her life. LB and CN were friends and also friends of AM. Then LB started talking to friends about her relationship with DM and that destroyed LB and CN's friendship. CN was dating DM when LB was telling others about hers and DM's relationship. MOO.

Yes, thank you! That is what I remember reading somewhere too. Wish I could remember where though [emoji6]

Also, the last time I checked AM's FB, he still had Elle Ryan (LB's alias) as one of his FB friends.


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[THXGuru]

Curious to know what makes you think CN didn't know at first.


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No real answer other than the what I have read in that statement and what she had said or did not say in the trial of DM/MS. I don't think most of the friends around DM/MS knew that they were going to murder for the truck. The letters were kind of perplexing in why she was still receiving them, but at a young age you do stupid things.

She also seems to be the only one who has some sort of future ahead, she has a University Degree and I think her parents have a solid business (I believe I had read that) and there were able to afford Greenspan. Signs of a good character than less-than ideal.

 

[marymcd]

She also seems to be the only one who has some sort of future ahead, she has a University Degree and I think her parents have a solid business (I believe I had read that) and there were able to afford Greenspan. Signs of a good character than less-than ideal.

RSBM

Although, up until Millard got caught one might have thought that based on some of his achievements and family background that he too had a promising and stable future indicative of good character. He didn't seem to have aspirations to pursue a post-secondary education, but he had explored other possibilities like photography, which as it turns out he may have cut his teeth on in soft-*advertiser censored*. The point being without the scrutiny Millard was under as a result of getting caught, his bio might have been impressive. I think that in part was why so many were fascinated with the case.

Noudga had been with him more or less for about 3 years prior to TB's murder. Millard had shared photos of guns with her which she seemed dazed and confused about, along with just about everything else of any importance. She also had almost a year between Millard's arrest and her own to put her game plan together. IMO, based on what I do know, I believe she did know, if not prior to Tim's death, then by the time that she and MB were consuming copious amounts of wine at the hotel.

 

[Sphinx]

CN most likely knew, but we will never know for sure. Suffice to say that she is not an innocent. She knew of the thefts, drugs, etc. yet, she continued her relationship with DM, even though she suspected he was fooling around on her. Why? Thrill of it? Knowing he was a bad boy excited her? Naive? Only she knows why she did the things she did. Holding onto evidence after his arrest? Dumb move. Writing letters back and forth was another stupid move.

What at is it about DM that made her behave this way?

And Marlens Meneses. Hanging out and living with a loser like MS?? Why??? She told him not to go and steal truck with DM. Why? Did she know murder was in the plan??? Lots of questions and no answers.

One thing that always struck me : When DM wanted to move that very heavy and awkward eliminator in the dead of night ( it is really dark in the countryside with no street lights in the area ) Why would CN not question it ? It would have been difficult enough to move it in daylight. His excuse about the floor boards being weak make it sound like it would be dangerous to move it. She expects people to believe she did not question any of this. It does not ring true --- more likely IMO that she helped him because she understood the urgency to move it after a murder had been committed. I think she knows what happened to TB's ashes, and likely some of his friends also knew, but they were terrified of being charged with accessory after the fact like CN was, so they kept quiet. IMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

One thing that always struck me : When DM wanted to move that very heavy and awkward eliminator in the dead of night ( it is really dark in the countryside with no street lights in the area ) Why would CN not question it ? It would have been difficult enough to move it in daylight. His excuse about the floor boards being weak make it sound like it would be dangerous to move it. She expects people to believe she did not question any of this. It does not ring true --- more likely IMO that she helped him because she understood the urgency to move it after a murder had been committed. I think she knows what happened to TB's ashes, and likely some of his friends also knew, but they were terrified of being charged with accessory after the fact like CN was, so they kept quiet. IMO

I fully agree with you [emoji4]


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[mimimic]

DM called her that night saying he needed a favor and something like how much do you love me?..... Then she put on gloves. Thin gloves not meant to protect her hands from injury. Wonder how that conversation went with MB. Typing this makes me even more sure again she had to know.

 

[Velma]

DM called her that night saying he needed a favor and something like how much do you love me?..... Then she put on gloves. Thin gloves not meant to protect her hands from injury. Wonder how that conversation went with MB. Typing this makes me even more sure again she had to know.

You're right, I've thought all along that they were the wrong type of gloves if she was trying to protect her hands or get a better grip. It's not like DM wouldn't have work gloves around. In my mind, either she knew or he tried to protect her by giving her that kind of glove. [emoji52]

 

[Georgeo]

You're right, I've thought all along that they were the wrong type of gloves if she was trying to protect her hands or get a better grip. It's not like DM wouldn't have work gloves around. In my mind, either she knew or he tried to protect her by giving her that kind of glove. [emoji52]

She doesn't strike me as a naïve girl - very smart in school, etc. - so for her to e THAT naïve to not ask why a huge and heavy incinerator needed to be moved in the cover of darkness, really doesn't ring true to me at all! She had to have known.

As for TM's ashes, isn't that a crime itself - indignity to a body - or something similar?

What a horrible mess. These people don't think the same as rest of the population. DM's excuse that the "person was killed accidentally" and that made the incineration acceptable to eliminate evidence so he and MS could get away with it? What??? Since when????? No remorse, no compassion for the family, NOTHING. Smirking and waving at witnesses in court, whilst victim's family is suffering horribly, having to go through all the horrible details of Tim's death.

Unbelievable that human beings could do this to another human being.

 

[deugirtni]

i am curious as to why DM and MS weren't charged with indignity to a body, and also why DM wasn't charged with communicating with CN against the instructions of his no-contact list. Is it because they didn't want to muddy the waters and just completely focus on the murder aspect, making sure they got convictions on that?

 

[Inspector_North]

She has referred to the murder as DM's mess. She was only concerned about her fingerprints. She never once acknowledged the suffering or grief of the Bosma family.

Now watch our system allow her to become a "caring" physician.

MOO

 

[don_quixote]

She doesn't strike me as a naïve girl - very smart in school, etc. -

No idea where this is coming from. She did Kinesiology in York. It's a good program for gym membership sellers. It's not impossible to get in a medical school from there, but not the first choice.

Here is a ranking based on a MD students survey. The # of students in York is 53,000 vs 85,000 in, say, UoT does not explain fully the higher numbers of UoT students in med schools.
http://www.macleans.ca/education/university/gambling-on-an-m-d/

Edit: May be there is something that makes that program preferable for her, but I am not aware of any such benefits.
If she is so smart, why didn't she get admitted to one of the top schools and be much closer to being a MD?

There seems to be a number of myths about Noudga which are not true.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'd call her wiley and cunning rather than smart.

If she were a smart girl she would have dumped DM when she realized that he was up to his neck in criminal activity. Whether she was 18 or 25 or 30. A smart person would have walked away from the drugs and the guns and the criminality. She has admitted that she knew all about this and spent most of her time high when with DM. Sounds more like someone who isn't too bright to me.

How she does at school is of no interest to me whatsoever. Maybe she's smart, maybe she isn't. I don't really care. We actually have no proof of her level of "brains" and I think it's irrelevant at this juncture.

I actually can't type what she really is because I'd be banned for life but I'm sure that we all can read between the lines and know what I mean.