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Great observations going on here. My recollection is that black plastic trash bags were the ''luggage'' that was talked of throughout the coverage of the packing issue.

Angelwings, great post I wonder IF IF the possible 'staging' suitcase had any traces of the Big Red Boat clothing that was laid out on the bed, to be packed in IT, that perhaps had been removed to put the semen stained blanket and Dr. Seuss book AWAY quickly?

My granddaughter when six was extremely bossy, and she was always very vocal and in charge telling and explaining JUST exactly where everyone was to sit in different situations, and did not give up easily when reasoned with.

.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around millionaires like John and Patsy using paper bags and/or black plastic trash bags as "luggage". Are you kidding me? In all my readings about this case I must have missed this nugget.
 
Probably does unless you know a few millionaires. It depends on how they came into money and how they were raised. You should read "The Millionaire Next Door."

Not all millionaires are alike.
 
I also believe we all have the right to be as pretty as we want to be. The operative word here is WANT. A 6-year old girl doesn't have the maturity to decide that she isn't pretty enough unless she has blonde hair and blue eyes. That is the mother's thought process.

I beg to differ. You are ASSuming that the reason a mother might do the hair coloring thing is because she thinks her daughter isn't pretty enough.

The reason that this comes to light is because when you compete in life there are standards whether we like it or not. You can't go in to interview for a six figure corporate postition and wear a biker outfit and expect you won't be judged on that. Men have standards to live up to just as we do.

In competition judges are the ones who set the standards and our society, which you're all part of folks. Don't blame Patsy for the standards set by the majority of society.

When we try and live up to the standards of those who will judge us in order to get ahead, it's called learning how to increase your chances of being successful in life.

It happens in all forms of competiton in which the winner is not judged on a finish line or a goal, but by the objectivity of judges. And in our real lives, our potential bosses and professors are exactly that - the judging panel.

Little ice skater girls wear glittery outfits like thier idols and if they are really competitive, they probably color their hair a bit so that they really stand out on the ice.

Again, many of you do not live in that world and I understand how easy it may be to stand on the outside and judge motives and morality.

That's fine. The problem comes when that starts piling on and going in a direction where you impose that judgment and morality on someone to determine guilt of murdering their child. That's a serious charge.

I wonder if you think your mother didn't think you were cute enough without those curls. You should be very offended that she didn't love you for how your hair was naturally, I guess. And did she give you those curls so that you could win something? Or was it just so you could go to school and look like other girls? What was her motive? Did she think you weren't worth spending the time with doing your hair and it was just easier? I guess she was Ok subjecting to that just to make her life easier.

Now, before you get totally offended, I'm just trying to make the point that I don't know your mother any more than you really know PR and if I wanted to, I could project all kinds of terrible things on your lovely mother who gave you perms. BTW those electric perms sound scarey!! and funny to look back on I bet. (I had Toni perms and they stunk so BAD!!)

I don't mean any of those things because I have no idea why you had perms and if God forbid your mother was ever accused of killing one of her children, I could probably use why-nutt's logic and figure it into her personality and then make a giant leap into some motive.

So, interjecting one's judgmental opinions in a situation with which one might not be able to empathize, seems unfair when you are associating it with the murder of a beautiful little girl. Gossip is one thing. This has gone beyond that.
 
Lastly, you seem to know exactly what JB wanted and didn't want and I see that as just too presumptuous.
Yes, maybe it was JonBenet who demanded to be a platinum blonde...

JonBenet: "Mother! Mother!"

[Patsy runs up the stairs to JonBenet's room.]

Patsy: "Yes, what is it, JonniB?"

[JonBenet standing in front of her mirror holds out a tress of her hair.]

JonBenet: "Look! Look at this!"

Patsy: "Look at what, dear?"

JonBenet: "I'm supposed to be in my first pageant in two weeks with this hair?"

Patsy: "What about it?"

JonBenet: "It's atrocious! How am I supposed to win with this pedestrian mousy brown color?"

Patsy: "But I think it's pretty."

JonBenet: "I said it's atrocious! I can't compete with this color! I want to be a platinum blonde!"

Patsy: "But Jonni B..."

JonBenet: "I want to be a platinum blonde!" [She hurls her juice box across the room.]

Patsy: "Okay, whatever you want, my princess."

JonBenet: "Good. Now go bring me another juice box."
 
Sadly none of us will never know what JB wanted, but you see it everyday kids her age doing what Mommie and Daddy wants so they will be pleased with them.. And it don't matter of the hair color cause nowadays natural beauty is a thing of the past.When my daughter was JB age I had friends that kept telling I needed to put her in this kiddie pageants but my feeling was when she could look at me and say this is what I want to do,Mommie.Cause at four years old no it was all the MOM...
 
Hey...wait a tick! You were trying to get your 8 year old's hair highlighted??? OK, it's just so hard to not see the whole in the story and jump on it. My bad. I've enjoyed the posting Ames.

I have to correct myself...she was 10 years old, not 8, because I was pregnant with my second child...and theres 10 years difference in the two of them.
 
icedtea4me:

I was referring to the notion that JB didn't want to be in pageants.

However, your fictional account was very dramatic! Wowza.

Purely fictional however and not addressing the issue of standards in judging, entertainment and society with regard to hair color.

Again, children with JB's dark blonde color bleach out naturally in the summer and in the winter she may have had the dark root look. Evening out the top to the longer hair results in overall blonde.

Sinister as you try to make it - it just depends on the environment a person is used to living in. Not your cup of iced tea, but demonzing it and fantasizing about how nasty PR is to have done it doesn't help JB, imo.
 
I beg to differ. You are ASSuming that the reason a mother might do the hair coloring thing is because she thinks her daughter isn't pretty enough.

The reason that this comes to light is because when you compete in life there are standards whether we like it or not. You can't go in to interview for a six figure corporate postition and wear a biker outfit and expect you won't be judged on that. Men have standards to live up to just as we do.

In competition judges are the ones who set the standards and our society, which you're all part of folks. Don't blame Patsy for the standards set by the majority of society.

When we try and live up to the standards of those who will judge us in order to get ahead, it's called learning how to increase your chances of being successful in life.

It happens in all forms of competiton in which the winner is not judged on a finish line or a goal, but by the objectivity of judges. And in our real lives, our potential bosses and professors are exactly that - the judging panel.

Little ice skater girls wear glittery outfits like thier idols and if they are really competitive, they probably color their hair a bit so that they really stand out on the ice.

Again, many of you do not live in that world and I understand how easy it may be to stand on the outside and judge motives and morality.

That's fine. The problem comes when that starts piling on and going in a direction where you impose that judgment and morality on someone to determine guilt of murdering their child. That's a serious charge.

I wonder if you think your mother didn't think you were cute enough without those curls. You should be very offended that she didn't love you for how your hair was naturally, I guess. And did she give you those curls so that you could win something? Or was it just so you could go to school and look like other girls? What was her motive? Did she think you weren't worth spending the time with doing your hair and it was just easier? I guess she was Ok subjecting to that just to make her life easier.

Now, before you get totally offended, I'm just trying to make the point that I don't know your mother any more than you really know PR and if I wanted to, I could project all kinds of terrible things on your lovely mother who gave you perms. BTW those electric perms sound scarey!! and funny to look back on I bet. (I had Toni perms and they stunk so BAD!!)

I don't mean any of those things because I have no idea why you had perms and if God forbid your mother was ever accused of killing one of her children, I could probably use why-nutt's logic and figure it into her personality and then make a giant leap into some motive.

So, interjecting one's judgmental opinions in a situation with which one might not be able to empathize, seems unfair when you are associating it with the murder of a beautiful little girl. Gossip is one thing. This has gone beyond that.

My late mother was blind her whole life. So how pretty I was or wasn't didn't enter into it. And she loved me very much, thank you. Maybe the curls were easier for her to take care of when I was too young to take care of my own hair. Considering this, your comments about both my mother and my looks were rude and mean-spirited. I would never make a comment like that about another poster's looks or mother.
That being said, read my siggy. We ALL post our opinions. Every word I say is just that. OPINION. And unless you were there, your words are opinions as well. I see no difference between opinions and assumptions. This is a discussion board. We discuss every aspect of this crime, including whether the fact that PR dyeing her daughter's hair to make her more competitive was indicative of a controlling relationship with her or whether JB was an entirely willing participant.
BTW, my mother was never suspected of killing one of her children. Good thing, too. I'm an only child.
 
My late mother was blind her whole life. So how pretty I was or wasn't didn't enter into it. And she loved me very much, thank you. Maybe the curls were easier for her to take care of when I was too young to take care of my own hair. Considering this, your comments about both my mother and my looks were rude and mean-spirited. I would never make a comment like that about another poster's looks or mother.
That being said, read my siggy. We ALL post our opinions. Every word I say is just that. OPINION. And unless you were there, your words are opinions as well. I see no difference between opinions and assumptions. This is a discussion board. We discuss every aspect of this crime, including whether the fact that PR dying her daughter's hair to make her more competitive was indicative of a controlling relationship with her or whether JB was an entirely willing participant.
BTW, my mother was never suspected of killing one of her children. Good thing, too. I'm an only child.

Well I'm glad I checked in tonight so that I could sincerely apologize and try to explain the comments were made ONLY to make a point about reading things into one's actions and in no way meant as personal attacks. It was a demonstration of how things that may be very reasonable can be made to seem horrible. I did try to say that in the original post and I am very sorry I did not stress it more. I only hope you will be able to recognize that and accept my apology. My point is certainly not worth hurt feelings.

Just like with your situation, we don't really know the inside everything that went on with the family relationships. True, they are opinions, but unsubstantiated hurtful opinions don't feel so great when they go the other way so I am hoping it's a precautionary tale.

Yes it is a discussion board but when it gets to the point where the snarky comments toward the R's don't really contribute to any sleuthing it seems like people are doing it for entertainment value and that is not fair to JB.

I would feel the same way if people were snarking about ST and his personal life or his hair with made up scenarios.

I guess I don't understand how the relationship with PR being controlling leads to murder when we don't have any anger issues related to PR.

And, I too am glad that your only child status was safe and loving.
 
I find the colouring of JB's hair a reflection of Patsy's character, and not in a positive way. Again just my opinion.
 
I find the colouring of JB's hair a reflection of Patsy's character, and not in a positive way. Again just my opinion.

That's what I think was trying to be said.

Let me say this- I believe PR loved her daughter very much. I do not believe she beat her daughter, nor do I believe ANY of the R beat JB. I do believe she may have used some methods of cleansing that are unorthodox for a child and border on cruelty.
PR was fiercely competitive. Her personality was that way (which is not a crime), and reinforced by Nedra, who was even more so. Nedra had two ALMOST Miss Americas. The third time was definitely going to be the charm, no matter what it took. PR and Nedra together were a tag-team as far as stage mothers were concerned.
It was this aspect of JB's pageant "career" that calls the hair-coloring into question. Did PR believe it increased her daughter's chances of winning? Yes. Did it? Sadly, probably. Did she see it as a step towards that evasive Paugh Miss America status? Absolutely. I wonder what JB would have endured had she gotten to that age. The plastic surgeons in the area may have already had visions of sugar plums (and a new Mercedes) dancing in their heads. It is how willing JB was that is the issue- nothing more. A 6-year old can't give legal consent to some things. Nor to ear-piercing, body piercing, tattoos.
Don't get me wrong- Plastic surgery is A-OK in my book- my daughter and my husband each having had it. Not me- I am as exquisitely perfect as the Twilight vampires. :)
 
And who is to say that being competitive is bad? Many pageant winners are very successful in business and entertainment. It can be a very positive experience. Miss CA and her implants are going to do quite well.

The competitive nature of a person should not equate to poor character, on the contrary imo.

Tiger Woods father was the same and trained that child rigorously. Nuff said.
 
I'm not sure if Tiger Wood's father taught him to lie, as did PR when telling JBR not to talk about or mention the use of peroxide on her hair.
 
What age was Tiger Woods when he started his training and everytime I seen him he looked happy playing golf and how does this compare to a beauty pageant, I'm sure Tiger Woods didn't have his hair done or wear contacts so I'm new here but this don't have any comparison to what we discussing on JB...
 
And who is to say that being competitive is bad? Many pageant winners are very successful in business and entertainment. It can be a very positive experience. Miss CA and her implants are going to do quite well.

The competitive nature of a person should not equate to poor character, on the contrary imo.

Tiger Woods father was the same and trained that child rigorously. Nuff said.

At one of her pageants, JB was seen kicking Patsy...for some reason. Doesn't seem that she was very happy then.
 
What age was Tiger Woods when he started his training and everytime I seen him he looked happy playing golf and how does this compare to a beauty pageant, I'm sure Tiger Woods didn't have his hair done or wear contacts so I'm new here but this don't have any comparison to what we discussing on JB...

I feel it is important to point out that none of us have observed a young Tiger Woods or JonBenet at all times to really know what percentage they were happy. Even the most devoted children have meltdowns when they are pushed or tired and grumpy. They sometimes get over it and want to do it again!

You can also feel free to google some stuff yourselves if you REALLY want to know.

snipped from: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_11_52/ai_79352550/

"By the time Tiger started playing in national amateur events, his nerves had been hardened by psychological techniques his father had learned as part of training as a prisoner-of-war interrogator."

I don't think Earl Woods was a bad guy at all and he and Tiger had a great relationship. He could be tough, no doubt. Other than an incident of JB kicking PR, we don't know that JB didn't love her little beauty pageants! I think PR and JB had a loving relationship.

Because a certain competition might nudge one to alter appearances to be considered a contender should not matter if that is what the child likes to do. If you can show me that pageants are harmful then I would reconsider.
 
I am sure Tiger Woods loved golf- even as a child. You have to love a sport to excel that way and accomplish what he did, his childhood training, though strict, did not diminish his love for the game.
I don't put much into a TW-JBR comparison. He displayed an early talent for the game, and he was lucky enough to have a father who knew just what to do with it. I don't get the impression that he regrets much about it.

With JB, she may have liked the pageants, loved the dresses, make-up, tiaras (most little girls do- they all love to be a princess). But she may have longed to "train" a little less vigorously. With her, Nedra and her mother engineered JB to be a performer. I'll be honest- I've watched her videos. Was she beautiful- absolutely. Was she extremely talented. No. She was a cute dancer and singer. To watch a similar performance that IS on a scale with a young Tiger Woods, watch any video of a 3-year old Shirley Temple. (one of JB's faves, so her mom said- bet she was forced to watch). Shirley Temple blows JB out of the water in the "performing" category, IMHO.
 
I feel it is important to point out that none of us have observed a young Tiger Woods or JonBenet at all times to really know what percentage they were happy. Even the most devoted children have meltdowns when they are pushed or tired and grumpy. They sometimes get over it and want to do it again!

You can also feel free to google some stuff yourselves if you REALLY want to know.

snipped from: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_11_52/ai_79352550/

"By the time Tiger started playing in national amateur events, his nerves had been hardened by psychological techniques his father had learned as part of training as a prisoner-of-war interrogator."

Because a certain competition might nudge one to alter appearances to be considered a contender should not matter if that is what the child likes to do. If you can show me that pageants are harmful then I would reconsider.

You know, as far as I am concerned...I don't see anything harmful about pageants. Although, I do not agree with spray tanning, hair extensions, a fake teeth ( used on children that have lost some), and tons of makeup. All of those things teach a kid that they are not beautiful enough...so we have to add a few things to make you pretty, so that you will win. A beauty pageant should be about REAL beauty. For example..my daughter models...as I have told you before in a previous post...BUT, her agent does not allow her younger models to wear makeup. For her photo shoot, the agent put a little bit of mascara on her, just to bring out her huge blue eyes...but, that was it. A friend of mine was in every pageant that was ever held, in our state. She was Miss This and Miss That....with tons of trophies and sashes. She WON them all. She was a beautiful girl. BUT...when she got older, she was still extremely beautiful...but, she always strived to be the perfect mother, and the perfect wife. Her husband was a jackass, so they ended up divorciing. She ended up with a druggie, that got her addicted to drugs. They got in a fight one night, and he shot her in the face with her own gun. Before that happened though...I remember when she and her husband had bought their new home...and I came for a visit. I was shocked that NONE of her trophies were there, and she had probably 100 of them. The last place that I saw them was over at her home that she shared with her parents...before she got married. There was a whole room dedicated to those trophies and those sashes. I asked her...when I didn't see ANY of them in her home that she bought with her husband...."Where are all of your trophies?" And she said..."I left them over at my parents house, they belong to my MOM anyway". Her mother was one of those pushy stage mothers. Anyway...in a case like this...I see where pageants can be harmful. After she got married..she was never "perfect" enough.
 

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