Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Sutton]

Why has SR been dismissed by posters as a top suspect?

I am reading at BF and liking him for the murders right now. Not so much as a team with PW, but PW is a weird one. How was he mayor?!

 

[Criminalmimes]

How was he mayor?!

The former treasurer sniffed a woman's chair in the middle of parliament, 'bra-snapped' another female colleague and was only removed from office after crashing into 3 parked cars whilst drunk.
Western Australian politics is a breeding ground for weirdos, not just the serial killer kind.

 

[Criminalmimes]

RSBM

I think they used entomology and experience of how criminals usually operate (I guess it's profiling) to determine this. And maybe stomach contents. Can anyone think of any other way?

This may be a little silly, but I think JR had highlights in her hair - perhaps hair regrowth? But that wouldn't be specific enough for hours, probably closer to days, if at all.

 

[GreenDevil]

I have a theory on this;

I think a guy she liked was at Conti and she waited outside hoping that when this guy leaves he'd approach her. He didn't so she left. I think she either got into a cab or car out the front or walked around the corner onto a deserted Gugeri St and got in a car there.

She could have met someone earlier in the night and had a pre-arranged meeting but why did she agree to go to Club (locals refer to CBV as Club, Clubba or Club Bay Spew)? I guess it's possible she planned to wait in line (there was always a line at that time of night) and once they got close to getting in, make her excuses and bail for her rendezvous. The problem I have with this is even if she didn't tell her friends they would have seen him talking to her. He would have come up on Macro's radar. I'm also quite confident our guy doesn't meet his victims in bars on the night of the murders.

She may have been seeing someone and had a pre-arranged meeting. I believe if this was true, a) Macro would have found out through phone records, and b) her friend in the CIA doco wouldn't have been so sure JR "just wanted to meet someone".

Could have she gone to another club? Subiaco maybe, which is closer to home. But she would have got a lift home and then got a taxi from Shenton Park.


I wonder what her friends thought she was doing? Conti closing, didn't like Club, could have stayed in the line at Club, decided to stay out. Surely her friends were asking themselves what JR's options were?

What you have got to understand is that for a girl Jane's age back then, it was not all that uncommon for them to ask for a lift from a complete stranger in a car driving by or for them to ask random people if they could get a lift to such and such a place. For example, I was at Inaloo cinemas in the mid 90's, possibly 95 or 96. I was either 15 or 16 at the time and I was waiting outside with some friends and I had a number of girls approach me that night asking me if I had a car and for a lift to Claremont. I was quite tall for my age, which is why I think they asked if I had a car.

JR waiting outside the sidewalk presents the perfect opportunity for the CSK to driving past patrolling the area for a victim. All he would had to have done is offer a lift, in a nice friendly manner. JR being under the influence of alcohol, IMO would have readily accepted the lift.

You have to reason the possibilities of how the CSK captured his victims and it comes down to a number of options, but you then have to prioritize those options to which is most likely and unlikely but a possibility.

1. JR was offered a lift by the CSK who was driving past and she accepted the lift.
2. JR caught a Taxi and the driver was the CSK
3. JR walked away and down the street, was blitz attacked and bundled into a car/van
4. JR walked away and was offered a lift somewhere else and that person was the CSK.

Now, to me the first two scenarios are the most likely, and all of the other ones are unlikely but possible. When you consider that DNA has been taken from 2,500 Taxi drivers, 900 Taxis were forensically examined and all Taxi drivers backgrounds were checked and any drivers with questionable backgrounds were elevated as POI's, then investigated, interviewed more thoroughly. This all turned up nothing. I would say with the amount of work that was done on the Taxi industry and that the idea that JR caught a legitimate Taxi and the driver was the CSK, has been investigated thoroughly enough to exclude it in this case. An illegitimate Taxi is another line of inquiry altogether, the possibilities and amount of investigate work to be able to prove this did or did not happen is incomprehensible.

The other likely scenario is 1. that one that JR was offered a lift by the CSK. Now, one would reason that the timing was too perfect for the CSK who just happened to be driving past at the time saw JR and offered her a lift, then murdered her etc. There has to be some sort of patrolling the streets going on. Whether or not it was just sitting, waiting and watching or actual patrolling the area looking for a victim is not clear. But you have to agree if it did happen this way it was no coincidence. The CSK could easily have developed the skills over period of time to talk to girls and say the right things to coax them into his vehicle. He may have met with a lot of "**** offs" and generally at that time of night, when people are intoxicated they have sketchy memories about such things. In relation to this scenario, a major surveillance operation was conducted and vehicle registration numbers were recorded every Friday and Saturday nights between the key times that the girls went missing. A number of vehicle registration numbers were identified as passing through the same area multiple times during those key times. Unfortunately this was after all three girls went missing. A key suspect was obtained through this surveillance.

Lets not forget that it is just as important to disprove something then it is to prove something. In the Claremont case, I believe there is a lot of disproving going on, to prove that the method in which they believe the girls were snatched actually happened.

If the girls were snatched using method 3 or 4, one would reason that someone surely, saw or heard something when they were being forcefully abducted from the streets. It it just too risky a method to use for someone that is as organised and meticulous in there planning as the CSK was. It is much safer to simply offer them a lift, if they so say then no one thinks twice about it, if they say yes, then the CSK has a potential victim.

 

[GreenDevil]

Why has SR been dismissed by posters as a top suspect?

I am reading at BF and liking him for the murders right now. Not so much as a team with PW, but PW is a weird one. How was he mayor?!

SR has never been the top suspect. SR is a very unintelligent man, who I doubt would even have the mental capacity to commit the crimes. If he did commit them, the method he would have had to use would have been what exactly? Please don't say a bogus Taxi.

 

[Sutton]

SR has never been the top suspect. SR is a very unintelligent man, who I doubt would even have the mental capacity to commit the crimes. If he did commit them, the method he would have had to use would have been what exactly? Please don't say a bogus Taxi.

Whoa, slow down. I didn't say SR is the killer or that he was the top suspect. I asked why other posters didn't consider him a serious suspect. Is your reason because you don't think he was smart enough?

If I did think he killed the girls, I doubt he killed them with a bogus Taxi. I don't know how they were killed. I could make some guesses with arguments for each guess.

What do you mean by "bogus Taxi"? Did SR have access to a taxi? I thought he was working with a company that dispatched him. Are you saying the Falcon station wagon was not used as a taxi?

Are there any other reasons why SR should be completely dismissed? (I understand you might not consider him a real suspect, but I'm asking just in general.)

 

[Sutton]

The former treasurer sniffed a woman's chair in the middle of parliament, 'bra-snapped' another female colleague and was only removed from office after crashing into 3 parked cars whilst drunk.
Western Australian politics is a breeding ground for weirdos, not just the serial killer kind.

I would be more interested in local politics if I knew these type of absurdities could occur.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Why has SR been dismissed by posters as a top suspect?

I am reading at BF and liking him for the murders right now. Not so much as a team with PW, but PW is a weird one. How was he mayor?!

I have him at number 5.

There's a school of thought that he wasn't intelligent enough to firstly pull off the crimes undetected and secondly, to be able to keep his story straight under intense police interrogation. It's thought that he would have tripped over his own lies.

He's a worthy suspect because he has a taxi, knows another POI in PW, and lied about having SS in his car the previous night. I think the most likely reason he lied was some sort of attention seeking move rather than pre-empting an excuse if SS DNA was found in his cab.

He could have done the crimes with PW but PW had a water tight alibi on one of the nights (he was at a public function until 1:00am). Police speculated that SR picked up the girl on this night and then met PW when the function finished.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I would like to know when LW bought his car. He lost his license from 1988 until 2 days after SS disappeared. I'd assume he bought his white Hyundai before SS abduction in anticipation of getting his licence back.

When I came across LW in the late 80s he did a lot of driving in that yellow Corona for a guy without a license. I wonder if there is anyway of confirming that was his parent's car? And if so, did they know he was driving it? He had a semi-alibi on one of the nights with his parents vouching that he was home with them and that they would have known if Lance sneaked out. But if Lance was sneaking out years earlier and using their car without them knowing then his alibi is worthless.

 

[Sutton]

At one point in time a poster said he or she had seen a version of the CCTV recording that contained additional footage than the footage shown on CIA. Does anyone know if this available anywhere or if the details are posted on any forum?...

We don't know if this footage exists because only one poster said he saw it...

...However he didnt look like he was coming out of the pub- he looks like he was walking past- pretty risky to wait outside one pub in the hope that this man will walk past on his way home from somewhere else. It would seem more likely that she was waiting to see someone who was inside.

RSBM. Is this the footage in question? Or is there a 3rd piece of allegedly released footage?

I found this link on BF. The poster (January 15, 2015) points out that MM pokes his head out of the pub at 0:38 seconds. The poster then expresses her opinion that JR is watching the people exiting. At 1:06 the poster says JR turns as if to follow MM, who has just exited.

[video=youtube;hbbg-FVij4c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbbg-FVij4c[/video]

This wasn't discussed in depth on BF because the thread was unraveling. No idea who the OP was, might be a loon, just not trying to take credit for her observations.

 

[Sutton]

...When you consider that DNA has been taken from 2,500 Taxi drivers, 900 Taxis were forensically examined and all Taxi drivers backgrounds were checked and any drivers with questionable backgrounds were elevated as POI's, then investigated, interviewed more thoroughly. This all turned up nothing. I would say with the amount of work that was done on the Taxi industry and that the idea that JR caught a legitimate Taxi and the driver was the CSK, has been investigated thoroughly enough to exclude it in this case. An illegitimate Taxi is another line of inquiry altogether, the possibilities and amount of investigate work to be able to prove this did or did not happen is incomprehensible...

RSBM. That sounds thorough, but many famous serial killers have been included on lists for years, and police just don't have reason to investigate further.

Green River Gary (Ridgeway) likely killed over 70 women. He was an early suspect, but the task force did not think he was the one. HUGE investigation, lasting over 20 years, FBI assistance, in excess of $10 million in cost. There were many POI's on the list, only a few detectives thought he was a real possibility.

Ted Bundy was turned into 4-5 times, but he was dismissed as a possibility numerous times. The same is true for many other killers. The FBI frequently tells LE after a few months of unsuccessful investigation, that they've already interviewed the real killer.

But DNA could make my point moot.

Oh, I see this is what you meant by "bogus Taxi." Now I understand.

 

[Sutton]

I would like to know when LW bought his car. He lost his license from 1988 until 2 days after SS disappeared. I'd assume he bought his white Hyundai before SS abduction in anticipation of getting his licence back.

When I came across LW in the late 80s he did a lot of driving in that yellow Corona for a guy without a license. I wonder if there is anyway of confirming that was his parent's car? And if so, did they know he was driving it? He had a semi-alibi on one of the nights with his parents vouching that he was home with them and that they would have known if Lance sneaked out. But if Lance was sneaking out years earlier and using their car without them knowing then his alibi is worthless.

What condition would you say the Corona was in? Was the interior clean? Was the exterior clean? Do you remember? I'm guessing you rode in the front passenger seat?

 

[Bartholemeus]

RSBM. Is this the footage in question? Or is there a 3rd piece of allegedly released footage?

I found this link on BF. The poster (January 15, 2015) points out that MM pokes his head out of the pub at 0:38 seconds. The poster then expresses her opinion that JR is watching the people exiting. At 1:06 the poster says JR turns as if to follow MM, who has just exited.

[video=youtube;hbbg-FVij4c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbbg-FVij4c[/video]

This wasn't discussed in depth on BF because the thread was unraveling. No idea who the OP was, might be a loon, just not trying to take credit for her observations.

The guy who pokes his head out it not MM. Hair colour is darker and not as straight as MM.

Macro interviewed every person who was at the Conti on that night. They identified everyone but MM. Everyone was able to say "I was at Conti from X:XX pm until X:XX pm and saw these people there". MM was not inside Conti. He just walked past.

 

[Bartholemeus]

What condition would you say the Corona was in? Was the interior clean? Was the exterior clean? Do you remember? I'm guessing you rode in the front passenger seat?

Looked like this:



Could have been anything from 1974 to (circa) 1980 model. Could have also been Toyota Cressida as they look alike.

It was a long time ago and don't recall if interior was neat or not.

 

[Mel 1303]

You have to reason the possibilities of how the CSK captured his victims and it comes down to a number of options, but you then have to prioritize those options to which is most likely and unlikely but a possibility.

1. JR was offered a lift by the CSK who was driving past and she accepted the lift.
2. JR caught a Taxi and the driver was the CSK
3. JR walked away and down the street, was blitz attacked and bundled into a car/van
4. JR walked away and was offered a lift somewhere else and that person was the CSK.

RSBM
I agree the taxi's seem to have been looked at very closely. Lots of DNA samples taken- but if the police dont have anything to compare it to, the DNA isn't all that helpful- unless something else turns up, a new piece of evidence.

1. CSK drives past, offers JR a lift. Yep, can see that for sure, except that what are the odds that he would have offered three girls a ride, and they all accepted, yet no one else came forward about being offered a ride. I know at night after drinking memories can become muddled, but police were able to talk to every single person at the Conti that night, except for MM. Even the dude twirling in circles on the footpath (although maybe he was just happy, rather than intoxicated) was interviewed. I just cant credit the odds that the only other people the CSK offered rides to were so drunk they were blacking out. Unless of course, they knew him. Familiar face offers each of them a ride, and saves them a taxi fare- absolutely. I am sure the police were thorough in their investigations into connections between the victims, but Perth is not that big. There would be some connections. The bus driver, the guy that makes coffee at that shop in that mall, the aerobics instructor that may have worked in different gyms, so met each of them in different places. The guy that puts books back on the shelf in the library. I was thinking about people I know incidently in my life, and wondered how many of them my family know about. Once I started thinking about it, I was suprised.

2. JR caught a Taxi and the driver was the CSK
This one has been a big theory for a long time. A taxi driver, the son of a taxi driver who made use of the taxi when not in use, a mechanic with access to taxis being repaired, a bogus taxi (although wouldn't neighbours etc have seen such a car?). Cant be discounted. It was late for each of the victims- were they tired? Maybe the victims were picked simply by being the single women who fell asleep on the drive home. Bundled out of the cab quickly, so that whatever happened to them happened outside the taxi. If there is no DNA to compare to, and no evidence in the taxi- the CSK could easily be one of the taxi drivers investigated.

3. JR walked away and down the street, was blitz attacked and bundled into a car/van
Blitz attacks seem dangerous in a busy place- the risk of the victim screaming. Although still possible.

4. JR walked away and was offered a lift somewhere else and that person was the CSK.
Which fits with both scenario 1 and 2, just in a different location. SS was on the footpath waiting for a taxi, CG was walking on the footpath.

 

[Bartholemeus]

RSBM
I agree the taxi's seem to have been looked at very closely. Lots of DNA samples taken- but if the police dont have anything to compare it to, the DNA isn't all that helpful- unless something else turns up, a new piece of evidence.

At the time they took the samples, Macro had a live serial killer on their hands. The assumption was he'd strike again and they'd get some DNA. But he likely didn't strike again. Probably because police have his DNA and committing another murder means almost certain detection.

1. CSK drives past, offers JR a lift. Yep, can see that for sure, except that what are the odds that he would have offered three girls a ride, and they all accepted, yet no one else came forward about being offered a ride. I know at night after drinking memories can become muddled, but police were able to talk to every single person at the Conti that night, except for MM. Even the dude twirling in circles on the footpath (although maybe he was just happy, rather than intoxicated) was interviewed. I just cant credit the odds that the only other people the CSK offered rides to were so drunk they were blacking out. Unless of course, they knew him. Familiar face offers each of them a ride, and saves them a taxi fare- absolutely. I am sure the police were thorough in their investigations into connections between the victims, but Perth is not that big. There would be some connections. The bus driver, the guy that makes coffee at that shop in that mall, the aerobics instructor that may have worked in different gyms, so met each of them in different places. The guy that puts books back on the shelf in the library. I was thinking about people I know incidently in my life, and wondered how many of them my family know about. Once I started thinking about it, I was suprised.

There's two different scenarios going on here:

1. Living witness

I was always very suspicious about how the CSK got a 100% hit rate. I've since been lead to believe there are "living witnesses" - girls who reported being offered lifts. Allegedly, one such man was a Telecom worker who had a Telecom vehicle who frequented the area and often offered girls lifts. There's also the attempted abduction behind CBV. We don't know if police have a description of that man. Then there's Northbridge man.

I also wonder how Judoman came to Macro's attention? Offering women lifts? Or had an established connection with at least 2 of the girls?

2. Direct relationships

Judoman knew two of the victims and went to the same uni as the third. It's possible he did a lot of waiting until girls he knew popped up on the radar. One thing that worries me is the kiilings stopped and I don't believe he was a serious suspect until years after.

2. JR caught a Taxi and the driver was the CSK
This one has been a big theory for a long time. A taxi driver, the son of a taxi driver who made use of the taxi when not in use, a mechanic with access to taxis being repaired, a bogus taxi (although wouldn't neighbours etc have seen such a car?). Cant be discounted. It was late for each of the victims- were they tired? Maybe the victims were picked simply by being the single women who fell asleep on the drive home. Bundled out of the cab quickly, so that whatever happened to them happened outside the taxi. If there is no DNA to compare to, and no evidence in the taxi- the CSK could easily be one of the taxi drivers investigated.

And hence why the killings stopped - he gave DNA and knew he had to stop otherwise he'd get caught.

3. JR walked away and down the street, was blitz attacked and bundled into a car/van
Blitz attacks seem dangerous in a busy place- the risk of the victim screaming. Although still possible.

4. JR walked away and was offered a lift somewhere else and that person was the CSK.
Which fits with both scenario 1 and 2, just in a different location. SS was on the footpath waiting for a taxi, CG was walking on the footpath.

There used to be doctors office (physio I think) on Stirling Hwy next to the Church. It fronted onto Freshwater Pde (Cnr Hwy) but the carpark was out the back. And that carpark was about 10m from the footpath that CG walked along and only separated by bushes and a walking ramp. Dark, secluded and accessible. I don't buy into the blitz attack but it's possible. There was a carpark out the back of the shops that SS called the cab from. JR could have walked onto Gugeri St (although it leads to carparks that would have been in use with Conti patrons)

 

[Sutton]

Did anyone else think JR appeared much slimmer in the CIA video than in any of her other pics? Not that it matters, I just am struck by it every time I watch the clip.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Did anyone else think JR appeared much slimmer in the CIA video than in any of her other pics? Not that it matters, I just am struck by it every time I watch the clip.

Yes I agree with you Sutton...but there is a degree of distortion in the footage apparently.

 

[Bartholemeus]

There's another pic I have seen recently where she's quite thin. You can see it all around her face. She has brown hair in this photo if anyone has it.

 

[Simi]

Pretty sure Judo Man is interviewed on the CSI Australia story as a friend of one of the girls....cant remember which one now. But it was discussed as being quite odd because he did not know her that well in real life but spoke of her as a friend.

Initials are SD. Openly found on FB.

Ill let you piece together the rest.

JudoMan has always been my number 1 on list of POI.

Thanks for that information Fence Sitter.

I did some fb stalking and here are some things I noticed. Mods, please delete if this kind of posting is not allowed or discouraged.

1. Around the time when Sunday Night aired their segment on the CSK (31/05/2015), Judoman was o/s and didn't seem to be anxious or concerned, but rather was posting Judo-related photos and seemed normal. As someone stated prior, you would expect the CSK to be anxious or not themselves if such a high profile segment was being aired. This to me points to him being innocent.

However…

2. He is very active on fb, makes plenty of comments. He seems highly regarded on fb, with plenty of people complimenting and seeming to look up to him. This to me suggests that he is social, charismatic, and enjoys the status of running (?) Judo classes at the local university.

3. He has a photo of a mutilated lamb in his pictures. Whilst in the context which it was posted was quite innocent, I personally find it a tad vulgar.

4. He likes Bentley cars. Whilst this means absolutely nothing, I thought that I would mention it as the profile of CSK is that they enjoy cars and takes care of them.

5. He has a child which I would estimate to be approx. 18-20 years old. Could this be the reason the CSK stopped?

Please delete if this is inappropriate

Simi