Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Laymaker]

Hello Bart, Billy, Sutton, Bessie and everyone. This is my first post but I read through the entire BigFooty thread as it occurred and I enjoyed it very much. I have also read this thread. Discussing unresolved mysteries is one of my new interests and I have been focusing on the Claremont Serial Killer and the Original Night Stalker. Everything in my comments is my opinion but I feel very certain about some points.

General Thoughts

1. It had to be a taxi driver. 100%
1A. CSK did not choose his targets ahead of time. He had no way of knowing that those particular girls would go to those particular venues on those nights since the girls did not give notice to any single linked source. He also had no way of knowing that those particular girls would end up in vulnerable positions by separating from their groups or hailing rides. Therefore he would have needed to make many visits to the abduction zone, and sometimes he would have aborted because he wouldn't have found a target who was vulnerable and met his basic target profile on every occasion. A taxi affords this opportunity.
1B. All three girls were looking for cabs. This was confirmed for two of the girls. SS phoned a taxi, JR stood at taxi rank, CG left friends to hail a taxi.
1C. All other circumstance and evidence favor taxi. A taxi provides an easy means for approaching and abducting the girls. A taxi was seen near CG's body dumping site, on Pipidinny Rd, on the night she disappeared. There are multiple ways that the girls could have been disabled later -- including picking up an accomplice to "share the cab".
1D. Other mechanisms are unlikely for specific reasons. Other means would have been loud (blitz) or resulted in more conspicuous activity that would have been reported (offering many rides before the perfect three victims accepted). Also, it would be strange for the girls to have accepted rides from non-cabs given that they were headed to specific non-public residential destinations that wouldn't have been on anyone's normal route.

2. CSK stopped killing because he was investigated. >50%
2A. The murders did not stretch long enough for age or life changes to be very probable factor. The murders only spanned a year and a half and there were three victims during this short period. I don't think it's likely that the killer was successfully focusing on and managing a relationship during this period. His killings were late on Friday nights and he obviously would have been coming home at very odd hours on the following days. His potential spouse would have possibly reported this behavior that perfectly corresponded with the dates of the widely-publicized killings. Other life changes could include an injury, move or death. We have no reason to believe that any of these occurred. To me, the specific and varied scene locations suggest that the killer was a native or long-time local, as opposed to a traveler or transplant. He knew the outer areas and the nightlife area, and the roads on multiple sides of the city. In my own sprawling urban hometown, this is the mark of a native or long-time local. Someone with this profile would be less likely to have moved after the crimes compared to a transplant, so I think it's likely that the killer is still in Perth and has stopped killing for some reason.
2B. Random targeting and vicious methods suggest a pathological killer who would not be satiated organically.
2C. The investigation covered an enormous amount of suspects and was/is unrelenting and collected DNA for future use. If he wasn't on record, the killer could/might have changed his Modus Operandi or location and committed another murder in Perth without having to worry that his crime would be pre-empted or traced back to him easily. For example, he could have abducted a girl off the street in another upscale area or even changed tact and abducted a girl who hailed a taxi outside of the nightlife scene. But if he was on record, he would be wary of having his movements triangulated or his DNA matched to the new scene.

POIs

1. SR/PW >50%
- Have a cab
- Were investigated
- Natives or long-term locals who would have been familiar with general locations of all sites
- Both have histories of associations with death and sexual deviancy
- SR had a nonsensical story related to the SS crime
- SR's intelligence and PW's alibi do not seem like significant factors
- Match description of attempted Princess Rd abduction
- CSK was known to have called one of the victim's parents. PW called another parent multiple times.
- PW collected newspaper clippings on the crimes...
- SR was suspected in his girlfriend's death, and he collected "trophies" from that death in the form of pictures
- SR & PW together profited as a team from the death of the first girlfriend by essentially 'splitting' her equity in the property

2. LW
- I don't know enough to speak about this suspect at length...
- Hasn't it been said that he kept a gun in his car? Has a gun ever been mentioned in the context of the crimes?
- Seems like a well-known and recognizable character in the area who would have been noticed and remembered.

3. Judoman 0%
- Does not have a cab
- The killer did not know the victims!
- Was not one of the people reported to be at CBV even though he's well known
- Lives a full, functional life
- Not a native or long-term local of Perth

4. MM (Mystery Man) 0%
- Did not have time to get into a car
- Does not have a cab

5. Droc (Noel Coward) & TT (Taxi Tony) 0%
- Exhibits all the signs of an unworthy, unreliable attention-seeker
- Matched claims to existing, known details and connected dots with incredible claims that the killers alternately confessed to him, groomed and recruited him, led him to a secret factory lair, etc.
- Offered no unreleased details that were later confirmed by police
- Story makes no sense. Snuff films do not exist. A junkie ring would have been caught.

Minor Notes

1. CSK's intelligence does not seem to be a major factor in the case. At no point was calculus, trigonometry or extreme cunning necessarily involved. The number of crimes was so small that luck, incompetence by law enforcement, or simply sticking to a plan could have easily prevented detection. Unintelligent people are not cartoon characters. They can be quite capable of forming friendships, succeeding in major ventures, hiding their intentions, living good lives, etc. CSK seems to have been rash and destructive like any other run-of-the-mill serial killer. He did not hide the bodies where they could never be found, he collected trophies, he struck the exact same block three times, he called the parents and made other alarmingly stupid moves.

2. WAPOL clearly does not have useful DNA. They would have been able to eliminate the POIs they have been stuck on. The bodies were exposed for far too long for DNA to be viable.

Questions

1. Which other non-canonical Perth crime do you think was most likely to have been committed by the CSK? Julie Cutler, cemetery rape, attempted abduction on Princess Rd, bashing behind CBV, or something else? I find it highly unlikely that CSK did not commit an earlier crime in Perth.

2. What were WAPOL's specific words regarding the blitz attack theory?

3. Do we have any further description of PW's calls to the victims' parents?

4. Other than SR's intelligence, what leads people to believe that SR couldn't/didn't act alone?

5. Did SR routinely drive his cab in Claremont?

6. What were the significant shifts or changes after the 3rd killing in terms of new/favorite suspects and police actions?

 

[JMC44]

Compelling, well-written stuff. Echoes a lot of what I think about the case. But I don't think it's fair to rate Judoman at 0%. There is obviously information available to the police and not us that is sufficient for them to manufacture and air a documentary that at least in part has at its heart the airing of his face to the wider public/potential unaware witnesses. Further, life is fickle, and it is not unfeasible that Judoman struck out, got extremely lucky, and came across three girls he vaguely knew. Finally, he seems odd and gives off a very off feel in the interview in the documentary. Having said this, PW and SR are still my chief suspects.

Can you elaborate on the CSK being known to have called victims' families? I did not know this.

Thanks.

 

[Parkie]

JR was partially identified by her belly ring because the CSK didn`t bother to take it. I don`t think this investigation is heading into any useful territory.

 

[Sutton]

JR was partially identified by her belly ring because the CSK didn`t bother to take it. I don`t think this investigation is heading into any useful territory.

Interesting about the belly ring. If true, we don't know of any jewelry type items he took from JR.

Obvi it will be up to us to solve this

 

[Bartholemeus]

Hello Bart, Billy, Sutton, Bessie and everyone. This is my first post but I read through the entire BigFooty thread as it occurred and I enjoyed it very much. I have also read this thread. Discussing unresolved mysteries is one of my new interests and I have been focusing on the Claremont Serial Killer and the Original Night Stalker. Everything in my comments is my opinion but I feel very certain about some points.

General Thoughts

1. It had to be a taxi driver. 100%
1A. CSK did not choose his targets ahead of time. He had no way of knowing that those particular girls would go to those particular venues on those nights since the girls did not give notice to any single linked source. He also had no way of knowing that those particular girls would end up in vulnerable positions by separating from their groups or hailing rides. Therefore he would have needed to make many visits to the abduction zone, and sometimes he would have aborted because he wouldn't have found a target who was vulnerable and met his basic target profile on every occasion. A taxi affords this opportunity.
1B. All three girls were looking for cabs. This was confirmed for two of the girls. SS phoned a taxi, JR stood at taxi rank, CG left friends to hail a taxi.
1C. All other circumstance and evidence favor taxi. A taxi provides an easy means for approaching and abducting the girls. A taxi was seen near CG's body dumping site, on Pipidinny Rd, on the night she disappeared. There are multiple ways that the girls could have been disabled later -- including picking up an accomplice to "share the cab".
1D. Other mechanisms are unlikely for specific reasons. Other means would have been loud (blitz) or resulted in more conspicuous activity that would have been reported (offering many rides before the perfect three victims accepted). Also, it would be strange for the girls to have accepted rides from non-cabs given that they were headed to specific non-public residential destinations that wouldn't have been on anyone's normal route.

2. CSK stopped killing because he was investigated. >50%
2A. The murders did not stretch long enough for age or life changes to be very probable factor. The murders only spanned a year and a half and there were three victims during this short period. I don't think it's likely that the killer was successfully focusing on and managing a relationship during this period. His killings were late on Friday nights and he obviously would have been coming home at very odd hours on the following days. His potential spouse would have possibly reported this behavior that perfectly corresponded with the dates of the widely-publicized killings. Other life changes could include an injury, move or death. We have no reason to believe that any of these occurred. To me, the specific and varied scene locations suggest that the killer was a native or long-time local, as opposed to a traveler or transplant. He knew the outer areas and the nightlife area, and the roads on multiple sides of the city. In my own sprawling urban hometown, this is the mark of a native or long-time local. Someone with this profile would be less likely to have moved after the crimes compared to a transplant, so I think it's likely that the killer is still in Perth and has stopped killing for some reason.
2B. Random targeting and vicious methods suggest a pathological killer who would not be satiated organically.
2C. The investigation covered an enormous amount of suspects and was/is unrelenting and collected DNA for future use. If he wasn't on record, the killer could/might have changed his Modus Operandi or location and committed another murder in Perth without having to worry that his crime would be pre-empted or traced back to him easily. For example, he could have abducted a girl off the street in another upscale area or even changed tact and abducted a girl who hailed a taxi outside of the nightlife scene. But if he was on record, he would be wary of having his movements triangulated or his DNA matched to the new scene.

POIs

1. SR/PW >50%
- Have a cab
- Were investigated
- Natives or long-term locals who would have been familiar with general locations of all sites
- Both have histories of associations with death and sexual deviancy
- SR had a nonsensical story related to the SS crime
- SR's intelligence and PW's alibi do not seem like significant factors
- Match description of attempted Princess Rd abduction
- CSK was known to have called one of the victim's parents. PW called another parent multiple times.
- PW collected newspaper clippings on the crimes...
- SR was suspected in his girlfriend's death, and he collected "trophies" from that death in the form of pictures
- SR & PW together profited as a team from the death of the first girlfriend by essentially 'splitting' her equity in the property

2. LW
- I don't know enough to speak about this suspect at length...
- Hasn't it been said that he kept a gun in his car? Has a gun ever been mentioned in the context of the crimes?
- Seems like a well-known and recognizable character in the area who would have been noticed and remembered.

3. Judoman 0%
- Does not have a cab
- The killer did not know the victims!
- Was not one of the people reported to be at CBV even though he's well known
- Lives a full, functional life
- Not a native or long-term local of Perth

4. MM (Mystery Man) 0%
- Did not have time to get into a car
- Does not have a cab

5. Droc (Noel Coward) & TT (Taxi Tony) 0%
- Exhibits all the signs of an unworthy, unreliable attention-seeker
- Matched claims to existing, known details and connected dots with incredible claims that the killers alternately confessed to him, groomed and recruited him, led him to a secret factory lair, etc.
- Offered no unreleased details that were later confirmed by police
- Story makes no sense. Snuff films do not exist. A junkie ring would have been caught.

Minor Notes

1. CSK's intelligence does not seem to be a major factor in the case. At no point was calculus, trigonometry or extreme cunning necessarily involved. The number of crimes was so small that luck, incompetence by law enforcement, or simply sticking to a plan could have easily prevented detection. Unintelligent people are not cartoon characters. They can be quite capable of forming friendships, succeeding in major ventures, hiding their intentions, living good lives, etc. CSK seems to have been rash and destructive like any other run-of-the-mill serial killer. He did not hide the bodies where they could never be found, he collected trophies, he struck the exact same block three times, he called the parents and made other alarmingly stupid moves.

2. WAPOL clearly does not have useful DNA. They would have been able to eliminate the POIs they have been stuck on. The bodies were exposed for far too long for DNA to be viable.

Questions

1. Which other non-canonical Perth crime do you think was most likely to have been committed by the CSK? Julie Cutler, cemetery rape, attempted abduction on Princess Rd, bashing behind CBV, or something else? I find it highly unlikely that CSK did not commit an earlier crime in Perth.

2. What were WAPOL's specific words regarding the blitz attack theory?

3. Do we have any further description of PW's calls to the victims' parents?

4. Other than SR's intelligence, what leads people to believe that SR couldn't/didn't act alone?

5. Did SR routinely drive his cab in Claremont?

6. What were the significant shifts or changes after the 3rd killing in terms of new/favorite suspects and police actions?

Great post but a few comments;

1. Agree that the CSK did not choose his targets ahead of time. Claremont Town Centre is bordered by Stirling Hwy, Stirling Rd, Gugeri St and Leura Ave. If we think of Claremont as a flock of sheep, he pulled each girl off from the edge of the pack. Either JR jumped into a cab or walked around the corner onto Gugeri St and separated herself from the pack so to speak.

2. The taxi at Eglington. The dates don't match. CG was abducted on a Friday night. Police have stated they firmly believe the girls were dumped on the same night. The taxi driver insists he saw the taxi on a Sunday morning. So there's a few options here;
a) Brickie is lying about seeing a cab
b) The brickie is lying about reporting it to the police. Police didn't seem to act on it which suggests either the bricklayer didn't report it, or police lost the information (we know there were major flaws in evidence gathering)
c) Brickie info is correct and either police lost the info or disregarded because it happened on a Sunday morning. This means that potentially CG was dumped on the next night.

3. My understanding is someone did call Don Spiers with info and Don thought he was legit. Police want to speak to that person. Whilst it's probable police think this was the CSK, I haven't seen any definite statements saying "the CSK called one of the parents".

4. I don't think SR is a suspect in killing his ex. As far as I understand, police checked it out and there was no evidence that anything dodgy went on. Apart from taking pictures of her dead body. Of course, this could excited Stevo and triggered the killings to take photos of other dead women.

5. I don't believe LW had a gun in his car

6. LW was not well known around the area. He was an inconspicuous nobody with no friends and his family had no connections to any elite crowds. He was conspicuous to me because he gave me lifts.

7. Judoman is local enough.


When I have time I will post all the known info on LW. It's more compelling that any of the others IMO.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Questions

1. Which other non-canonical Perth crime do you think was most likely to have been committed by the CSK? Julie Cutler, cemetery rape, attempted abduction on Princess Rd, bashing behind CBV, or something else? I find it highly unlikely that CSK did not commit an earlier crime in Perth.

2. What were WAPOL's specific words regarding the blitz attack theory?

3. Do we have any further description of PW's calls to the victims' parents?

4. Other than SR's intelligence, what leads people to believe that SR couldn't/didn't act alone?

5. Did SR routinely drive his cab in Claremont?

6. What were the significant shifts or changes after the 3rd killing in terms of new/favorite suspects and police actions?

1. a) Julie Cutler b) Cemetary rape c) Bay View Tce attempted taxi abduction d) bashing behind CBV

The Julie Cutler case is an enigma. How did her car get in the surf? Did the killer do it? Or did he dump her car and some local juveniles do it? How did he travel away from the car dumping? Taxi? 6am train from Cottesloe Station? JC's body has never been found. Could have he used the same hiding spot used for SS?

The cemetary rape is a different MO. It's a blitz attack and although the victim was blindfolded she knew he drove a van. Possible pre-cursor crime to full scale murder and a change of MO. The crime was well organised as was the Claremont murders. Also, just like serial killers, rapists generally don't stop at one. Where did this guy go?

Bay View Tce - I've since learnt this didn't happen on Princess Rd but on Bay View Tce. It matches the taxi theory but I'm not convinced this happened. There's parts in DM's book where I feel she has used some license in using unconfirmed information (i.e. rumours)

Bashing behind CBV - different MO but could have been a precursor crime. The CSK realised it was doing it wrong, went away to the drawing board and came back with a new and improved MO based on geting girls to get into his car.

2. There's an article about it. Link has broken:

http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/editions/20150321/view.php

"Police now do not believe any of the three women got into a vehicle voluntarily but was subject to a blitz attack".

"Focus has moved away from taxis and Lance Williams"

3. My only understanding is he rang them, told them he was a suspect, and had a bit of a whinge about it and protested his innocence.

4. None

5. Don't know

6. Unknown

 

[Parkie]

The belly ring identification was just a cursory till they got DNA & dental ID. The brickie story; well he identified the wrong day in what he saw, wrong day!

 

[Sutton]

...
Questions

1. Which other non-canonical Perth crime do you think was most likely to have been committed by the CSK? Julie Cutler, cemetery rape, attempted abduction on Princess Rd, bashing behind CBV, or something else? I find it highly unlikely that CSK did not commit an earlier crime in Perth.

2. What were WAPOL's specific words regarding the blitz attack theory?

3. Do we have any further description of PW's calls to the victims' parents?

4. Other than SR's intelligence, what leads people to believe that SR couldn't/didn't act alone?

5. Did SR routinely drive his cab in Claremont?

6. What were the significant shifts or changes after the 3rd killing in terms of new/favorite suspects and police actions?

RSBM. Welcome to WS. Good first post.

You've locked yourself 100% into the taxi theory, but you included a strong taxi argument and laid it out clearly.

I have some comments, but I'll reply to your question for now.

1. I'm not sure, as I've just recently developed my theory. But I definitely think one half of the CSK committed other rapes. Do you think all rapes in reported to the police were included in the newspaper?

2. Here's another link:
http://mobile.news.com.au/national/...nt-serial-killer/story-fns0kb1g-1227370836343

"And just a few months ago, it was reported that police had moved away from the taxi theory and now believe the three women may have been the victims of a blitz attack and were forced into a car."

3. Link is behind a paywall.
"Don Spiers told The Weekend Australian that Peter Weygers had called him on numerous occasions to complain that he had been accused of killing Mr. Spires's 18-year-old daughter, Sarah.
"He has rung me in the middle of the night and said 'I have been accused of killing your daughter.'"

Banks, A. (2004, September 18-19). Ex-mayor in calls to murdered girl's dad. The Weekend Australian, p. 5.

I'd love to know more details. The calls were made in 1996. This makes it even worse because in 1996, the Spiers were still holding on to hope that Sarah was alive. To me, these calls speak VOLUMES.

4. I don't give much credence to Steve Ross' intelligence. Everyone is a genius in something. Many serial killers have low IQ's.

Weygers and Ross make sense because of two reasons--Weygers, who is connected to Ross in many ways, inserted himself into the case more than once, and the profile given does not match Ross. I think Ross, on his own, would have done/actually did things much differently. I will discuss this more when I complete (I'm still trying to understand a few parts) my theory.

5. Good question, I don't know the answer. But there are many local posters here, does anyone remember him?

6. Another good question. I'm new to the case, so I have no clue. I've been trying to find articles from 1996-1998, but very few are available online. I posted a link yesterday that probably had a couple of 1996 articles, but I don't remember anything different. I will keep your question in mind. Maybe a local can offer a better perspective.

 

[Sutton]

...
2. The taxi at Eglington. The dates don't match. CG was abducted on a Friday night. Police have stated they firmly believe the girls were dumped on the same night. The taxi driver insists he saw the taxi on a Sunday morning. So there's a few options here;
a) Brickie is lying about seeing a cab
b) The brickie is lying about reporting it to the police. Police didn't seem to act on it which suggests either the bricklayer didn't report it, or police lost the information (we know there were major flaws in evidence gathering)
c) Brickie info is correct and either police lost the info or disregarded because it happened on a Sunday morning. This means that potentially CG was dumped on the next night.

3. My understanding is someone did call Don Spiers with info and Don thought he was legit. Police want to speak to that person. Whilst it's probable police think this was the CSK, I haven't seen any definite statements saying "the CSK called one of the parents"...

6. LW was not well known around the area. He was an inconspicuous nobody with no friends and his family had no connections to any elite crowds. He was conspicuous to me because he gave me lifts...

When I have time I will post all the known info on LW. It's more compelling that any of the others IMO.

RSBM. Bartholemeus,

As far as # two, other possibilities that I consider are the killer may have thought he'd forgotten something/dropped something or he may have wanted to enjoy the body again. Do you/Does anyone else think these are legitimate possibilities?

Regarding # three, I HAD NO IDEA THIS HAPPENED. So someone called Mr. Spiers and gave inside info that turned out to be true?!

And regarding # four, thinking about your time alone with LW, I know you weren't stone cold sober, but was he creepy in any way? Even just a feeling you got? We all know socially awkward, lonely guys, but did you ever get a vibe of rage or anything under the small talk? Even though you weren't someone he'd target, are you a little creeped out or no?

 

[Bartholemeus]

5. Good question, I don't know the answer. But there are many local posters here, does anyone remember him (SR)?

Just to put this in perspective;

A lot of people harp on about Perth being a country town but the truth is it's a big city of 2 million people. If you check out the size of many western cities you will discover if quite big comparatively. At a guess, in 1996 the population might have been 1.3m.

Claremont is a suburb about 10km from the city centre. There is a sense that everyone knows everyone but this is through the networks of the local private schools.

Steve Ross was not a local. At most he would have driven cabs locally but don't think he would have been someone people would recognise or remember. Perth didn't have localised cab companies. From memory he worked for Swan Taxis which was by far the largest, if not only taxi company in Perth. This makes it harder to localise your patch. He would have had to driven from Embleton to Claremont and then hope he gets local fares. As soon as he gets a fare out the airport it's harder to get a fare back to Claremont.

If he did in fact tend to localise on Claremont as much as possible then the question has to be asked; why?

 

[Bartholemeus]

RSBM. Bartholemeus,

As far as # two, other possibilities that I consider are the killer may have thought he'd forgotten something/dropped something or he may have wanted to enjoy the body again. Do you/Does anyone else think these are legitimate possibilities?

2. Yes, more so than dumping the body a night later. I think we determined it's likely that forensics would ave been able to determine within a few hours as to how long CG had been there, and therefore which night she was dumped.

So there is a reasonable explanation/theory as to why the brickie saw the taxi on the next night.

3. Have you watched the Sunday Night episode from a few months back? It's all old information but pretty sure they say that someone called DS and police want to talk to that person. Can anyone confirm?

I wasn't really creeped out. I just thought he was a no-mates loser whose only opportunity to talk to someone was by giving them a lift. At the time I thought all he did was drive around and look for hitch hikers so he could talk to someone.

 

[enzeder]

2. Yes, more so than dumping the body a night later. I think we determined it's likely that forensics would ave been able to determine within a few hours as to how long CG had been there, and therefore which night she was dumped.

So there is a reasonable explanation/theory as to why the brickie saw the taxi on the next night.

3. Have you watched the Sunday Night episode from a few months back? It's all old information but pretty sure they say that someone called DS and police want to talk to that person. Can anyone confirm?

I wasn't really creeped out. I just thought he was a no-mates loser whose only opportunity to talk to someone was by giving them a lift. At the time I thought all he did was drive around and look for hitch hikers so he could talk to someone.

BBM ^^

I went looking for that particular 'Sunday Night' 7News episode just recently to no avail. Today, however, I came across what may be the the video/s. Is this the programme you are referring to?. I'll post the links below in case others haven't seen it.

VIDEO The Claremont Killer - part one 15:38 mins
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/28295405/father-will-never-give-up-search-for-sarah-spiers/

(VIDEO The Claremont killer - part two at the same link keeps stopping a few seconds into it and likewise other links elsewhere for 'part two' of the video as well.?)

I found a link for The Claremont Killer - part two that does work (see below)

The Claremont Killer - part two
by 7News 11:23 mins
https://uk.screen.yahoo.com/claremont-killer-part-two-104500351.html

This article (at first link above) mentions someone calling Sarah's father at 2am.

It was at 2am on a Sunday morning shortly after Sarah went missing. The caller asked him, "Are you Sarah's father?"

Don won't give details of what the man said but he still believes it wasn't a hoax.

The caller gave him a location - 5600ha of dense land and bush. Don went there but the size of the location and the dense vegetation meant looking was "hopeless".

"I would like them to somehow get in touch with me and verify what they had to say because that has haunted me for 19 years," he said.

Father will never give up search for Sarah Spiers
June 1, 2015: https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/28295405/father-will-never-give-up-search-for-sarah-spiers/

 

[crabstick]

Thanks Enzeder.

Id be interested to know what "dense land" is.

I presume its fairly heavy bushland. Maybe untouched forest? Shame we don't know the area he refers.

A quick search of 5,600ha. Did Don check the bottom of the bottom the well?


http://www.wheatbelttourism.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Eastern-Wheatbelt-Visitors-Guide.pdf

This article (at first link above) mentions someone calling Sarah's father at 2am.
It was at 2am on a Sunday morning shortly after Sarah went missing. The caller asked him, "Are you Sarah's father?"

Don won't give details of what the man said but he still believes it wasn't a hoax.

The caller gave him a location - 5600ha of dense land and bush. Don went there but the size of the location and the dense vegetation meant looking was "hopeless".

"I would like them to somehow get in touch with me and verify what they had to say because that has haunted me for 19 years," he said.

Father will never give up search for Sarah Spiers
June 1, 2015: https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...-sarah-spiers/

http://s21.postimg.org/jhbxouu1z/westonia_earth.jpg

 

[Jezz]

I find it interesting that the police can say with such certainty that they were killed and dumped the same night they were abducted. The bodies were found some time after abduction and were decomposed to the point where they were not easily identified so surely there is a margin for error?

We can say with reasonable knowledge that there was ritual, trophy taking and incapacitation (obviously no media links for this but from what has been gathered throughout out all of these threads via heresay) so surely this would suggest they were taken somewhere for a few hours at least, possibly a day or few???
I suspect that the police don't want to put the idea out there that these girls were anything other than killed quickly and don't want large scale panic at the idea of girls being tortured.

Personally all I am pretty much 100% on is that it had to have been a taxi. I cannot see my other reason those girls would have gone with a stranger and the blitz attack theory is ridiculous. Plus there is the fact that JR disappeared from a taxi rank...

I am still hovering between SR and judo. Judo has everything against him except for the access to a taxi. It's also possible he is just a freak who is getting off on people thinking he is the guy and so nudges people's thinking that way knowing there is no real evidence.

SR is a definitely possibility and there is nothing to really suggest he didn't do it. If accounts I have heard from people who have known him are true he also likes to brag about being 'him'. That and why else would he need a reason for SS being in him car?

Bring on an inquest I say.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Lance Williams

Abductions

SS - Friday 26 January (early Friday morning, Australia Day Public Holiday) 1996

JR - Sunday (early Sunday morning) 9 June 1996

CG - Friday (Around Midnight) 14 March 1997

About Lance

* 40 years old in 1997
* A loner with no friends who has lived most of his life with his parents
* Public Servant with MRD (Main Roads Department)
* He had lost his license long term for DUI but regained it a couple of days after SS disappearance. He had a car at the time of SS disappearance
* He drove a late model white Hyundai Sedan
* He was an expert stalker of women. He could do it without the women knowing they were being watched. He stalks up to 30 women per night.
* At 14 he fell off some ropes at North Cottesloe Scouts (across the road from where he lived) and was concussed
* Has his first nervous breakdown at 23
* Had a crack at living alone in from mid December 1995 to June 1996 (in the beach front unit cnr Marine Pde and Pearse St) but in June 1996 is plagued with depression and admitted to a psychiatric hospital. * * He then went on to live back at his parents on September 26 1996. He again lived in his Marine Pde unit from June 1997 until June 2002. After that he is back home at his parents.
* He had a drinking problem earlier on. Also had a gambling problem earlier on too. And a smoker. Gave up all three cold turkey (only a year prior to the murders). LW's self discipline and self control is well noted.
* In 1995, one of LW's close friends died, triggering him to stop drinking and smoking.
* When question by police he was measured in his answers, often taking long pauses to consider his answers. He was nonchalent, cool and detached as if the questions were being asked of someone else.
* He failed a lie detector test (resoundingly)
* He doesn't have an alibi for any of the nights. The best he has is on one night he was at home with his parents (because the other 2 nights he lived by himself in his unit). But police believe he would have gone out at 11:50am like he does every other week and his parents were none the wiser.
* He had a knife in his car. LW says it was a pocket knife like a nail clipper knife. We don't know the truth.
* In a search of his house police found a receipt for car detailing a few days after CG abduction
* Criminal profilers and psychologists have reported on everything LW has said in response to being asked if he is the killer. They have all said that it is extremely rare and very strange for a person not to get angry, upset and flustered when being wrongly accused of murder. LW has always remained very calm, and softly spoken when accused of the killings, which is inconsistent with what a normal person does when wrongly accused. During police interviews he would sometimes wait 30 secs or more before answering questions, he literally thought about and rehearsed each response. Then he failed the Polygraph and the polygraph examiner with 40 years experience had absolutely no doubt he was the murderer.
* Police bugged his parents house. When police would visit, after they left the Williams' (Lance, his Mum and his Dad) would just go about business as if nothing happened. They didn't discuss it.
* Lance was treated like a 14 year old at home. 40 years old and his Mum would sometimes send him to bed with no dinner. Lace appeared to be female emasculated.
* He has a history of violent acts, one in particular that is alarming
* He regularly visited prostitutes. Always hand relief, never sex. He'd go for young blondes.
* He once went to the home of one of the hookers he was frequenting. She was young and lived at home with her parents. They didn't know. She told him to f-off. She doesn't know how he knew where she lived but it is assumed he followed her home. She was young and blonde.

Surveillance and Arrest

* Macro commandeer so speed cameras and set them up around Claremont and startn covert surveillance. In late September 1997 (6 months after CG disappearance) they notice LW is stalking women. They start immediate surveillance on LW.
* LW's habits are like clock work. He goes out every Thursday to Sunday from precisely 11:50pm. Occasionally it is 12:30am, but no other time. Mostly 11:50 on the dot, occasionally 12:30 on the dot, no other time. He drives straight to Claremont and does a few laps and then goes through Hungry Jack's (Burger King) Drive through and gets a large chocolate shake. He then drives onto Northbridge with his choc shake. Same route every night. Uses the same bin every night to dump his finished shake. He slowly drives through the red light district around Northbridge, then back to Claremont, and repeats up to 30 times a night.
* LW picks up a female undercover agent from the cnr of Bay View Tce and Gugeri St (same cnr JR was last seen). She asks where the bus stop is. He asks where she is going and offers her a lift. She accepts. * They get near her destination, she says she wants out of the car and gets out. DM says in her book that LW sensed something was wrong. This is speculation.
* They set up a sting on April 5 1998. LW is following a woman/undercover officer. He has passed her numerous times and looped back around. The pull out and arrest him.
* Female work colleagues had been known to request not to be left alone with him because he sometimes flies off the handle for no reason. Has a no pressure job but sometimes just cracks and loses it.
* LW is taken in for questioning on 7 occasions within 18 months. Never complains, never refuses, never gets angry.

Circumstantial Evidence and Theories

* The 3 guys at the bus stop who were the last known people to see CG reported that she was talking to the occupant/s of a white car
* Is the death of one of his close friends also the trigger for the murders?
* Apparently many psychologists believe many serial killers suffered trauma to the head in early childhood (I've never heard of this before but it's in DM's book). As a child Lance fell off some ropes and hit a concrete floor and was treated for concussion.
* I have been lead to believe there was no evidence of sexual assault with CG. LW doesn't have sex with the hookers he pays.
* How he reacted to the accusations and questioning is odd. If I were innocent, after the first few times I'd tell police to "f-off, it's not me, you're wasting time a resources on the wrong person and you should be trying to find the right person".
* He fits the profile in all ways - local, intelligent, female emasculated, early head trauma, stalks women, has OCD traits, a loner who may feel rejected by local girls, detailed his car after at least one of the murders, likes blondes, prefers hand relief than sex, no alibi, history of violence, failed polygraph, didn't get angry at police.

* The two biggest questions remain;
1. How did he convince them to get in his car?
2. Why was no evidence found in his car when searched?

reference: Debbie Marshall's book among other sources.
* I can't substantiate everything written.

 

[Bartholemeus]

BBM ^^

I went looking for that particular 'Sunday Night' 7News episode just recently to no avail. Today, however, I came across what may be the the video/s. Is this the programme you are referring to?. I'll post the links below in case others haven't seen it.

VIDEO The Claremont Killer - part one 15:38 mins
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/28295405/father-will-never-give-up-search-for-sarah-spiers/

(VIDEO The Claremont killer - part two at the same link keeps stopping a few seconds into it and likewise other links elsewhere for 'part two' of the video as well.?)

I found a link for The Claremont Killer - part two that does work (see below)

The Claremont Killer - part two
by 7News 11:23 mins
https://uk.screen.yahoo.com/claremont-killer-part-two-104500351.html

This article (at first link above) mentions someone calling Sarah's father at 2am.

That's the one I was referring to

 

[Jezz]

He sounds a bit more like an Aspergers case than anything else. Would explain a lot, especially the demeanour.

I just can't get past the taxi thing. Had to be a taxi.

 

[Bartholemeus]

He sounds a bit more like an Aspergers case than anything else. Would explain a lot, especially the demeanour.

I just can't get past the taxi thing. Had to be a taxi.

Taxi is the obvious and rational choice. But the info about LW is compelling. Circumstantial, but compelling. We also don't know how true it is. Did police exaggerate to justify to DM that they were right in spending all that time and resources on LW? My gut feeling is if there's a coronial inquest we will discover most of that information is accurate.

Let's consider LW picking up the women:

SS - she calls a taxi. LW, being the stalker he is is waiting on Stirling Rd in his car and watching. He drives up to SS and winds down his window. "You're no chance of getting a taxi at this hour, you'll be waiting for hours. Where are you going?" Puts on his innocent, I'm a geek, couldn't punch my way out of a paper bag and couldn't get a root in a brothel persona. SS is pissed. No sign of danger. Jumps in.

JR - She's disappointed that they guy she likes walks out of Conti and doesn't acknowledge her. She walks around the corner onto Gugeri St. Maybe crossed the Rd to the taxi stand. LW drives past. "Shenton park? I'll give you a ride". ** this term of events bothers me and it seems unlikely.

CG - she's been told about SS and JR but has only been back in country for a week. It hasn't really sunk in. She's pissed and full of confidence. Walks along Hwy hoping taxi goes past. Maybe she's hitching as alleged by 3 guys at bus stop. LW pulls up with his paper bag brothel routine. She feels this guy is a peanut and couldn't hurt anyone. She gets in.


It's possible. No matter which scenario/POI you look at, there's a flaw in the case against them. Most likely, in one of these flaws, that unlikely event is actually true. The girls may have actually got into LW's car.

 

[billywhizz]

Lance Williams


* He was an expert stalker of women. He could do it without the women knowing they were being watched. He stalks up to 30 women per night.

* Had a crack at living alone in from mid December 1995 to June 1996 (in the beach front unit cnr Marine Pde and Pearse St) but in June 1996 is plagued with depression and admitted to a psychiatric hospital. * * He then went on to live back at his parents on September 26 1996. He again lived in his Marine Pde unit from June 1997 until June 2002. After that he is back home at his parents.

* Criminal profilers and psychologists have reported on everything LW has said in response to being asked if he is the killer. They have all said that it is extremely rare and very strange for a person not to get angry, upset and flustered when being wrongly accused of murder. LW has always remained very calm, and softly spoken when accused of the killings, which is inconsistent with what a normal person does when wrongly accused. During police interviews he would sometimes wait 30 secs or more before answering questions, he literally thought about and rehearsed each response. Then he failed the Polygraph and the polygraph examiner with 40 years experience had absolutely no doubt he was the murderer.
* Police bugged his parents house. When police would visit, after they left the Williams' (Lance, his Mum and his Dad) would just go about business as if nothing happened. They didn't discuss it.

* LW's habits are like clock work. He goes out every Thursday to Sunday from precisely 11:50pm. Occasionally it is 12:30am, but no other time. Mostly 11:50 on the dot, occasionally 12:30 on the dot, no other time. He drives straight to Claremont and does a few laps and then goes through Hungry Jack's (Burger King) Drive through and gets a large chocolate shake. He then drives onto Northbridge with his choc shake. Same route every night. Uses the same bin every night to dump his finished shake. He slowly drives through the red light district around Northbridge, then back to Claremont, and repeats up to 30 times a night.
* LW picks up a female undercover agent from the cnr of Bay View Tce and Gugeri St (same cnr JR was last seen). She asks where the bus stop is. He asks where she is going and offers her a lift. She accepts. * They get near her destination, she says she wants out of the car and gets out. DM says in her book that LW sensed something was wrong. This is speculation.
* They set up a sting on April 5 1998. LW is following a woman/undercover officer. He has passed her numerous times and looped back around. The pull out and arrest him.

* LW is taken in for questioning on 7 occasions within 18 months. Never complains, never refuses, never gets angry.

* How he reacted to the accusations and questioning is odd. If I were innocent, after the first few times I'd tell police to "f-off, it's not me, you're wasting time a resources on the wrong person and you should be trying to find the right person".
* He fits the profile in all ways - local, intelligent, female emasculated, early head trauma, stalks women, has OCD traits, a loner who may feel rejected by local girls, detailed his car after at least one of the murders, likes blondes, prefers hand relief than sex, no alibi, history of violence, failed polygraph, didn't get angry at police.

* The two biggest questions remain;
1. How did he convince them to get in his car?
2. Why was no evidence found in his car when searched?

reference: Debbie Marshall's book among other sources.
* I can't substantiate everything written.

30 women stalked per night?

30 trips into between Northbridge and Claremont per night? What time does he finish up? Is he a wreck at work on Fridays if he's out so late on Thursday nights? Thurs-Sun are the nights that Club Bay View was open late right?

Do you have exact dates for the June 1996 admission to psychiatric hospital?

I find these parts odd - the fact he has been under surveillance, picked up an undercover police officer and let her out safely, and then they set up a sting and arrest him before he has even picked up the woman. Why? Why arrest him then if they didn't actually have enough evidence? Considering they had observed him stalking women regularly (without doing anything) why would they choose that time to arrest him? Wouldn't it have made more sense to at least arrest him while he has an undercover police officer in the car?

I agree his behavior when accused of being the CSK is odd. I've been accused on here by other posters of certain things and lost my **** at those idiots. Same as when you're being given a parking ticket or some other unjust infringement by a police officer - you would absolutely lose your **** if someone was accusing you of a murder you didn't commit.

Odd that his family didn't discuss the police visits. I've read an article where LW's mother actually claims it wouldn't surprise her one bit if he was the killer.


I guess the thing is - No matter whether LW was living with his parents or not.. he could not have taken any victims to a secondary location. He could not have got them in and out of that block of units, and no way would he take them to his parents house.

 

[Jezz]

I see where you're coming from but think about JR. It was a taxi rank. At least one person would have noticed a plain car pull up and try convince a girl to get in. Plus we see in the footage other taxis pick people up so clearly she can see they are running that night.

Once maybe, but three girls getting in a car with a stranger.... Seems like a reach.