Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Sutton]

Can anyone local (or with other knowledge) give an opinion near which Claremont Subway this incident occurred?
1. Shenton Rd and Gugeri St, or
2. Claremont Crescent and Stirling Rd

 

[papertrail]

How noticeable would a panel van have been?

given the proximity to surfer beaches possibly not noticeable at all. now if your question was 'how noticeable would a rolls royce be' the answer would be, it would stand out like the proverbial dogs balls.

 

[papertrail]

Can anyone local (or with other knowledge) give an opinion near which Claremont Subway this incident occurred?
1. Shenton Rd and Gugeri St, or
2. Claremont Crescent and Stirling Rd

The article I linked you to yesterday indicated there was only one official subway named "Claremont Subway" and that is the one near Rowe Park. If newspaper reports indicated claremont subway the reporter may have referred to 'claremont subway' in generic terms so it is difficult to say. I can tell you that there was a set of traffic lights at the corner of Barnfield Rd which becomes Gugeri Street (at the intersection of Stirling Road) / Stirling Road at the subway underpass. These lights are detailed in an earlier than 1996 road directory. So would a reporter refer to traffic lights as a stop sign, I wouldn't think so; which then leaves the one adjacent to Rowe Park as the likely culprit.

 

[Bartholemeus]

The article I linked you to yesterday indicated there was only one official subway named "Claremont Subway" and that is the one near Rowe Park. If newspaper reports indicated claremont subway the reporter may have referred to 'claremont subway' in generic terms so it is difficult to say. I can tell you that there was a set of traffic lights at the corner of Barnfield Rd which becomes Gugeri Street (at the intersection of Stirling Road) / Stirling Road at the subway underpass. These lights are detailed in an earlier than 1996 road directory. So would a reporter refer to traffic lights as a stop sign, I wouldn't think so; which then leaves the one adjacent to Rowe Park as the likely culprit.

If you read the list you will also see Stirling Rd, CLAREMONT SUBWAY. I assume you did read that far as part of confirmation bias.

I grew up in the area and can tell you that surfie dudes in panel vans were not part of the Claremont landscape in the 70s let alone the 90s. It's Claremont, not Scarborough. I can also tell you that locally these subways were known as The Graylands Rd Subway (or Showgrounds Subway) and the Stirling Rd Subway.

 

[papertrail]

I can tell everyone that surfers in panelvans were part of the landscape around Mosman Park, Swanbourne, Cottesloe, Scarbourough and other beachside or very close suburbs. Claremont is only a very short distance from Swanbourne (near the railway station) and these suburbs and I believe there were 2 rapes nearby the Swanbourne station in 1992. The people that attended the Claremont scene came from the surrounding suburbs therefore panelvans in the 1996 and 1997 era would not have looked out of place in the area. Surprise surprise I grew up in that immediate area too and lived not far from Claremont in the 90s so too did my 5 children when they moved out into their own accommodation.

Yes I did see the reference to the 2 claremont subways in that document, however had in my mind when preparing the post the information about the traffic lights at the corner of Gugeri and Stirling Roads so counted that out in my mind because the question was centred around stop signs and it is obvious to me that there would not be stop signs and traffic lights at the one intersection. You obviously forgot there were stops signs.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I can tell everyone that surfers in panelvans were part of the landscape around Mosman Park, Swanbourne, Cottesloe, Scarbourough and other beachside or very close suburbs. Claremont is only a very short distance from Swanbourne (near the railway station) and these suburbs and I believe there were 2 rapes nearby the Swanbourne station in 1992. The people that attended the Claremont scene came from the surrounding suburbs therefore panelvans in the 1996 and 1997 era would not have looked out of place in the area. Surprise surprise I grew up in that immediate area too and lived not far from Claremont in the 90s so too did my 5 children when they moved out into their own accommodation.

Yes I did see the reference to the 2 claremont subways in that document, however had in my mind when preparing the post the information about the traffic lights at the corner of Gugeri and Stirling Roads so counted that out in my mind because the question was centred around stop signs and it is obvious to me that there would not be stop signs and traffic lights at the one intersection. You obviously forgot there were stops signs.

There's a stop sign at Claremont Crescent/Stirling Rd. You seem to be only looking for and presenting the information that backs up your theory.

Forgive me for being extremely sceptical that you grew up locally.

 

[papertrail]

The location of the JR disposal site might not actually be Woolcoot road.

Yeah yeah I hear you loud and clear; I was going to attach an screen shot but thought I would give you all the description on how to find it for yourselves as it gives a better indication of what this and surrounding sites looked like in 1996 and perhaps 1997 (see a couple of sentences down). You can also view the Pipidinny Road site this way as well. I find interesting is the Wellard aerial photograph (JR disposal site) is taken from Landgate and shows the 2 blocks of land' firstly the lower one with just mainly bare earth and above that there is an adjoining lot of land and both of these lots are addressed as 619 Millar Road. The upper lot is where the JR disposal site was.

When you view the recent Con Bayens video, it shows some of the footage captured at the JR disposal site and the bush where she was laid, is extremely thick and it strikes me that the killer would have had great difficulty struggling through that bush to place her remains; it would not have been an easy task at all. I consider it might be plausible that the killer actually did not use Woolcoot Road, but instead gained access via dirt tracks leading off Wellard (?) Road.

To have a look for yourself; firstly you will need to ensure you have the latest JAVA applet installed. Then go to got to https://www.landgate.wa.gov.au/bmvf/app/mapviewer/

when the link opens, you will mostly be prompted to run Java, After you indicate 'yes', wait a couple of minutes and what will happen is whilst Java is setting in, you will be met by a yellow screen, which should change to a map of western australia with blue background. Wait until the map settles - this can take a little while if you've not used the system previously. A central spinner will stop spinning. Then go to the 'locate' button on left side and put in the address you want to search. when that opens you will see some circles that contain different things, across the screen. click on the one that has zebra-like stripes and that will open up the mosaic selection panel. go down the selections until you find the 6 Feb 95. As a side note, I find it interesting that mosaic maps are missing for periods 95 to 2000 and I understand that Landgate management choose which maps to make available for free public viewing.

Any how, when you have opened up the 95 mosaic, click on the 7th circle from the left which is the layers button. I choose to include cadastre data which will show the outline and property address or lot numbers. Hover your mouse over the property. That is where you will be able to see the 619 Millar Road detail for the location of the JR disposal site. The disposal site is not actually a Woolcoot Road location; Woolcoot is the boundary only. It may take a while for each map to settle after you apply the zoom controls.

To me this is a very interesting find. If you expand the map out, you will see that there are proposed developments for the properties left of 619 Millar Road. Lots of recent research shows a certain company that SS worked for involved in the Wellard area and in the Eglinton area.

Pipidinny Road disposal site is listed as either street or lot no. 317 on Landgate.

 

[papertrail]

There's a stop sign at Crescent Rd/Stirling Rd. You seem to be only looking for and presenting the information that backs up your theory. There were traffic lights there and perhaps now they have been removed

There was no crescent road, there was claremont crescent on the northern side of the railway line, and THERE WAS traffic lights at the junction of barnsfield>gugeri and stirling rd intersection just prior to going under the subway.

I don't give a **** about your sceptical view bud.

And if this is the place the woman was pulled out of her vehicle and the attempted rape, perhaps the rapist had pulled her into the pedestrian subway there because it is separate to the vehicle subway.

It's about time bud that you started to post some of your own valid research instead of sitting staring at your screen waiting for others to supply you information you can immediately pounce on and put out your negative and personal remarks about.

 

[Bartholemeus]

1. Why does it matter if it's incorrect? How does it change anything?

2. JR was dumped less than 5 meters from the side of an unsealed road. Why would the CSK access the dump spot from anywhere else?

3. Here's the dump site;

 

[Bartholemeus]

There's a stop sign at Crescent Rd/Stirling Rd. You seem to be only looking for and presenting the information that backs up your theory. There were traffic lights there and perhaps now they have been removed

There was no crescent road, there was claremont crescent on the northern side of the railway line, and THERE WAS traffic lights at the junction of barnsfield>gugeri and stirling rd intersection just prior to going under the subway.

I don't give a **** about your sceptical view bud.

And if this is the place the woman was pulled out of her vehicle and the attempted rape, perhaps the rapist had pulled her into the pedestrian subway there because it is separate to the vehicle subway.

It's about time bud that you started to post some of your own valid research instead of sitting staring at your screen waiting for others to supply you information you can immediately pounce on and put out your negative and personal remarks about.

You assumed the subway abduction site was the Graylands Rd Subway because you thought there was no stop sign at the Stirling Rd Subway, right? Firstly, if you grew up locally you would have known about the Claremont Crescent stop sign. Secondly, you seem to stop checking facts as soon as you get an answer you want.

I'm only pouncing on you because you're continually posting false and misleading information. To be honset I really don't understand why someone would say they grew up locally when they didn't? Why? What's the point?

 

[Bartholemeus]

perhaps the rapist had pulled her into the pedestrian subway there because it is separate to the vehicle subway.

Given you "grew up locally", can you please explain this comment. I have never been aware of a separate pedestrian subway.

 

[billywhizz]

When you view the recent Con Bayens video, it shows some of the footage captured at the JR disposal site and the bush where she was laid, is extremely thick and it strikes me that the killer would have had great difficulty struggling through that bush to place her remains; it would not have been an easy task at all. I consider it might be plausible that the killer actually did not use Woolcoot Road, but instead gained access via dirt tracks leading off Wellard (?) Road.

Lots of recent research shows a certain company that SS worked for involved in the Wellard area and in the Eglinton area.

Pipidinny Road disposal site is listed as either street or lot no. 317 on Landgate.

JR was spotted by a family who hopped out of their car to pick flowers. I don't think they were that deep in the bush.

Good pickup - I think.. I have tried searching for place of work +Wellard and +Eglinton but get no results for either one though... ?

 

[billywhizz]

CIA documentary also says martial arts expert worked closely with SS.

It doesn't say he worked at the same place.

I imagine her company would work closely with people from other companies. Maybe even multiple companies sharing an office floor?

Also - the school that someone attends is not always representative of the families wealth. Martial arts expert could have attended a less well off school after being expelled from a well to do school for being a psychopath. Who knows.

 

[firestarter]

JR was spotted by a family who hopped out of their car to pick flowers. I don't think they were that deep in the bush.

Good pickup - I think. I have tried searching for place of work +Wellard and +Eglinton but get no results for either one though.. ?

I lived near Wellard when JR was discovered.
My wife wanted to visit the place where she was found to say some prayers.
I went with her and remember either the Police or someone had placed a cross.
I remember the cross being close to Millar Rd.
Within 20 meters.
On the west side of Woolcoot rd.
The cross was less than 3m from the road.

 

[Parkie]

Incorrect there Firestarter. Was not less than 20 m from Millar road. I think we have seen you on here before...

 

[firestarter]

Sorry Parkie.
I only started following this forum a few weeks ago.
I am going on memory about the distance fro m Millar rd to the cross.
I am not saying this was where she was found. I am saying this is where I remember seeing the cross.
Thanks for the warm welcome Parkie.

 

[Bartholemeus]

100m

Easy to recall incorrectly after all those years.

 

[Sutton]

This is a general question, but Green Devil raised the same question in May 2015, and he or she may be inclined to provide any info uncovered at that time.

There were rumors and speculation about a light-colored station wagon, possible being light green or being involved in CG's disappearance. Green Devil asked the validity of the station wagon's involvement, but I didn't see an conclusive answer. Any one hear this rumor or know any other details?

I'm asking because of how similar a panel van and station wagon are to each other from 200 meters away or when you are terrified and blindfolded (or your sight is obstructed in some way).

Were station wagon taxis extremely uncommon?

 

[billywhizz]

"Murder suspect drove Holden wagon
A young man warned murder victim Ciara Glennon not to get into a white Holden station wagon the night she disappeared from Claremont.
The man and two others waiting at a bus stop near Christ Church on Stirling Highway saw her talking to the occupants of the car.
She had her knees bent and the palms of her hands resting on her knees to bring her down to the car's passenger window level.
One of the men called out to her that she was stupid to hitch-hike.
Ms Glennon looked up and waved him off with a middle finger sign, and continued talking to the car occupants.
The young men at the bus-stop looked away. When they looked back, both Ms Glennon and the car had disappeared."

http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/20080830/news/001.shtml (article doesn't exist anymore, but it used to)

One of the men from the bus stop is on big footy. He said he didn't see a car and it was his friend who did.

The CIA doco appealed for the driver of this vehicle to come forward, no one ever did. There would have been appeals for it before that as well. Not sure where the light green part is coming from? But the fact the driver of the last car that was apparently seen talking to CG has never come forward would tend to indicate some involvement.

 

[billywhizz]

Actually here's the full article - it says CG waved him off with a middle finger. But they would have been about 200m away... No way she would have heard him. And no way would the other guy on BF not have noticed her if one of them yelled out. Doubting the article now.



A young man warned murder victim Ciara Glennon not to get into a white Holden station wagon the night she disappeared from Claremont.

The man and two others waiting at a bus stop near Christ Church on Stirling Highway saw her talking to the occupants of the car.

She had her knees bent and the palms of her hands resting on her knees to bring her down to the car's passenger window level.

One of the men called out to her that she was stupid to hitch-hike.

Ms Glennon looked up and waved him off with a middle finger sign, and continued talking to the car occupants.

The young men at the bus-stop looked away. When they looked back, both Ms Glennon and the car had disappeared.

Ms Glennon's body was found in coastal scrub 40km north of Perth two weeks later.

She was the last of three young women who disappeared from central Claremont after leaving local nightspots.

The 27-year-old Mosman Park lawyer was seen standing on the footpath in Stirling Highway talking through the window to the occupants of the Holden.

Police have never released a description of the car.

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Link: http://www.postnewspapers.com.au/20080830/news/001.shtml