Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia

[Shadowboxer]

http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/jezzy801/library/

Ok weirdness.

I just uploaded the two pictures from the book of the dump sites and noticed they are around the wrong way.

The one that says it is of janes site is definitely the pippidiny site as it is set off the road and down a bush track while the one that says it is Clara's is right alongside the road and is definitely the Willard site as you can even see the paddocks there from the riding school and make out the fence line where she was found.

What a *advertiser censored* up Debbie!

Thanks for that and yes she did mess it up.

 

[ExcaliburX]

There's nothing in this. The video was of a guy showing someone on youtube how to fix their ink system. A syringe is need to bleed the ink through the tubes and gloves were used to stop getting ink on hands. Let's not cloud the thread with things that have nothing to do with anything.

Thanks for clarifying the purpose John.

 

[Bartholemeus]

http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/jezzy801/library/

Ok weirdness.

I just uploaded the two pictures from the book of the dump sites and noticed they are around the wrong way.

The one that says it is of janes site is definitely the pippidiny site as it is set off the road and down a bush track while the one that says it is Clara's is right alongside the road and is definitely the Willard site as you can even see the paddocks there from the riding school and make out the fence line where she was found.

What a *advertiser censored* up Debbie!

I started reading her book last night and noticed a few errors. I've never been compelled to read her book because it had to much of a stench of "WAPOL didn't divulge information to me therefore I will bag them in the book".

We all know WAPOL have made a meal of this, just how much is subjective at this stage. I'd rather focus on the crime rather than how **** WAPOL were/are.

 

[Jezz]

Yeah I never really thought the book was that great or ground breaking. I skimmed through it again last night for the first time since reading it when it came out and was struck by how much filler was In It about other unrelated wa crimes. Like she didn't have much info and was trying to beef it up.

She also went into great info about details of the bodies that seemed made up. Like for example the graphic detail of how JR throat was cut and how both girls were essentially decomposed to soup, but then describes the bodies also like they were fully formed and easily identifiable as women etc. also the detail of throats cut have never officially been affirmed and are only speculation.

As well as mislabelling the crime scene photos she also calls the wellard scene Wolcoot rd when it is Woolcott rd. small but significant in the scheme of other errors. I also think I read that she said JR went to Iona like the other girls but I'm sure we worked out she hadn't.

Lots of things to consider...

 

[Bartholemeus]

I always thought it was Woolcott until this morning when I checked it on Google maps and it says Woolcoot?

Confused?????

I assume someone at Google has got their spelling wrong because no numpty would name a street Woolcoot instead of Woolcott.

 

[Bartholemeus]

She also went into great info about details of the bodies that seemed made up. Like for example the graphic detail of how JR throat was cut

This changes things. If Police are/were convinced the girls were killed soon after and close to the abduction sites then this doesn't add up.

Too messy to happen in a car. If it was in a public place like a park then I'm sure the kill site would have been uncovered. It would also be hard to keep the girls quiet.

One option is he took them to his house. But again, that's a lot of mess. And there's still the problem of doing it without screaming. Maybe the girls were drugged?

Let's say the police are wrong about "soon after and close by" and he took them outside the city limits. How did he subdue them during transit?

 

[Jezz]

Hmmm yes it says Wolcoot on maps doesn't it... I'm sure the sign says Woolcott. Maybe I'm wrong. Never know.

Yeah I always thought it was a subdue in car, take to kill site then dispose elsewhere situation. Firstly I find it hard to believe someone would be able to easily kill someone while driving, in a busy area like Claremont.
Secondly, not to be gruesome, although nothing is official there has been a lot of suggestions of mutilation and ritual. Surely this would take time and be something that dare I say, the killer would want to 'enjoy' at his own leisure. A quick kill would surely not be sufficient...

I am also trying hard to think what the ink/printing connection might be. Were they painted? Symbols? Or was it more an incidental finding?

Although I'm aware of why the details of the killing cannot be released and a part of me doesn't want to know such things, the other part wishes the details were available just for sleuthing purposes. This is definitely a case where I get the feeling a lot is being kept from the public.

I've heard some rumours about the mutilations (from someone I would consider reliable) and if this is true there are elements of the girls being... Incapacitated before they were killed.
Definitely think the killer took his time and enjoyed himself.

I shudder even writing that. I really hope none of the family members read these posts

 

[billywhizz]

2. I also think the best scenario with SS is that his dumping ground was south but when JR was discovered he had to go somewhere else. SS and JR south, CG north. There's a good chance he looked at the UBD with a ruler and picked out Pippidinny for no other reason that to screw with investigators. I don't believe this has any real relevance in terms of solving the case.
4. This was talked about on BF: SS was abducted at 2am and sunrise was at 5-ish am. 3 hours. Pretty tight considering she has never been found. Why? First victim and the whole thing was rushed (abduct, kill, ritual, then bury her somewhere we she wouldn't be found)? Did he bury her locally (like under his deck or carport)? Or did he keep her at his house and dump the body the next night, or at a later date?
5. They searched LW's Cottesloe beachfront unit. What for? Souvenirs and/or trace? Do police actually think the CSK took the girls or bodies to a location?
7. Why change his MO from "you will never find the body" to "you will find it soon enough"? Was it because of time constraints? Maybe SS was the first and he had a grave pre-dug and the next time around felt this too risky because if anyone happened upon it the police would be waiting for him when he was doing the dump (that's debateable though given WAPOL's keystone reputation). He obviously tried to hide JR so the intention was for her to not be found for as long as possible.
8. Why do police think the girls were killed soon after abduction and close to the abduction site? They had to have been subdued very quickly. There's talk about JR's watch but this could have stopped during a struggle to subdue rather than the kill. CG was found after 3 weeks. Would have they been able to work out a time of death accurate to an hour each way? I wouldn't think so.
9. Droc was convinced the throats were cut. I don't buy it and lean heavily towards asphixiation/strangulation.

2. It wasn't a random drive out to Eglinton chosen on a whim. CSK had been there before and knew it was an area without streetlights. Both roads (Woolcoot and Pipidinny) allow you to see if a car is approaching from a long way away. Also they would have to make sure there were no houses in close proximity, and this would be hard to do if you were just randomly driving around off the freeway exit.

5. How exactly would you get a victim inside (and outside) an apartment block without being seen? Too risky. I think they checked it out simply because we have a guy who lives with his parents, even though he owns a vacant apartment by the ocean...

4 & 7. Paul Ferguson believes SS is somewhere around Wellard (insinuated in latest doco). This means CSK didn't change MO, he simply changed location (to the furthest away one he could manage to drive to and still get back in time).

8. Killed soon after abduction because you can't drive someone 40km against their will. The only way you could kill someone cleanly in a car is strangulation. You can't drive around with a dead body visible in the car so they would need to be put in boot. Judoman and someone with a stun gun would also be able to subdue victim quite easily, as would someone hiding in the back of a wagon. I still don't understand why just Claremont and just one particular block of Claremont (no girls taken from Subi, Freo, Cottesloe, Nedlands, Wembley etc). This suggests to me a house that is close proximity to Claremont, possibly with a hidden driveway not visible to neighbours or passers by or a roller garage.

9. Apparently (from memory - Robin Napper said this) the bodies were in such a state of decomposition that made it hard to tell whether the injuries to the neck area were from strangulation or from a knife. ***Pls note, he could have been referring to general cases when he said this, and may not have actually been referring to the bodies found in the CSK murders***

 

[Bartholemeus]

2. It wasn't a random drive out to Eglinton chosen on a whim. CSK had been there before and knew it was an area without streetlights. Both roads (Woolcoot and Pipidinny) allow you to see if a car is approaching from a long way away. Also they would have to make sure there were no houses in close proximity, and this would be hard to do if you were just randomly driving around off the freeway exit.

There is a school of thought that the CSK had to have intimate knowledge of these areas (as in visited many times for fishing or 4WD'ing etc). I don't believe this has to be the case and believe the CSK just reconned the areas specifically to dump bodies. I don't believe he chose them on the fly at all. We seemed to have our wires crossed on what I actually said.

This means CSK didn't change MO, he simply changed location (to the furthest away one he could manage to drive to and still get back in time).

You're splitting hairs over a technicality but let me clarify my point:

SS - concealed body well enough not to be found for 20 years
JR + CH - dumped bodies where they would be and were found.

Whatever way you want to slice and dice it, he made a change. Why?

I still don't understand why just Claremont and just one particular block of Claremont (no girls taken from Subi, Freo, Cottesloe, Nedlands, Wembley etc). This suggests to me a house that is close proximity to Claremont, possibly with a hidden driveway not visible to neighbours or passers by or a roller garage.

That's my guess.

He could have picked girls up in Highgate, Vic Park, Freo but chose the western suburbs, I suspect because he was targeting elusive well-healed girls.

If he chose the western suburbs he could have gone Cott, Subi, Nedlands but always chose Claremont. Maybe it's not about well-healed girls but all about geo-proximity to his house with either a high front fence and gate, or lock up garage? Maybe it's a bit of both.

I think this is more important that why he chose the dump sites.

9. Apparently (from memory - Robin Napper said this) the bodies were in such a state of decomposition that made it hard to tell whether the injuries to the neck area were from strangulation or from a knife. ***Pls note, he could have been referring to general cases when he said this, and may not have actually been referring to the bodies found in the CSK murders***

I'm guessing here but 3 weeks in the open for CG. I would have thought she'd still be intact. Time for Google to see what's normal in terms of deterioration.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Some info about decomposition

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070804095320AAabFgu

a few excerpts:

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

 

[Hermithead]

Exactly.

This is assuming they 'weren't' familiar with these areas. A person with a dead body, who is responsible for it, operating at night, in the bush, avoiding detection...
How familiar with their surroundings would they need to be to carry this out.

Exactly.
Does anyone have a link relating to the profile for the CSK provided by someone other than WAPOL?

Do you mean from an independent Criminologist? I'd be very interested in that as well.

 

[perthite]

Do you mean from an independent Criminologist? I'd be very interested in that as well.

I thought they'd had an FBI profiler assist but can't find any reference to it beyond this. I don't put a huge amount of value in profiling but it would be interesting to assess against some of the POI's. I'm guessing we're talking mid to late 20's, average or above average intelligence, single perpetrator, organised, local to Claremont and obviously someone quite capable of generally fitting in to society.

With regards to the dumping sites, I don't think they require intimate knowledge. Certainly they'll be areas that have been scoped out prior but I'd be surprised if they're much more significant beyond this. I think it's interesting that JR and particularly CG were left to be found - generally a SK will become more proficient over time so it could be argued that this was intentional.

Has it been confirmed that Adrian Bayley was not in WA at this time?

 

[perthite]

I am also trying hard to think what the ink/printing connection might be. Were they painted? Symbols? Or was it more an incidental finding?

This article has always baffled me. http://mobile.news.com.au/national/...rial-killer-case/story-e6frfkp9-1226056298037

I think the printing industry is a red herring, the significance is this specific business. Perhaps the new the technology was related to fibre analysis - but why ask a random shop about rope left behind 15 years later?

 

[Hermithead]

He certainly was an intriguing character, an absolute cult figure on the BF forum. From what I have read on Big Footy he sent letters relating to the Claremont murders to the Commissioner of Police and Foxtel and even created a blog - that certainly takes effort and shows a lot of conviction for his cause and certainly goes along way in building up credibility. But what hard evidence does he have for his suspect and can it be confirmed?

I'm a first time reader* of the Droc posts on BF and his motive is what really confuses me. He waits four months to follow up with police after reporting to them that he suspects the person living on his property is a serial killer. And why continue to associate with someone if you suspect them of murder or more importantly expose yourself to the risk that they could turn on you? Where is his priority for self-preservation? His avoidance in providing facts also posed doubt. BF posters Paco lenester and Pea Nut had made requests on separate occasions and both of his responses were dismissive.

His real objective appears to be distorted, it doesn't appear to be about achieving justice for these poor girls but instead focuses himself as a victim... of the authorities.

If his suspect is the perpetrator then what gaps in the evidence need to filled in order to prosecute - that should be the focus. But first and more importantly, what verifiable evidence is there to justify this person as a suspect?

*Footnote - I posted on BF before Droc appeared on there. I never kept up with the thread and only returned to read it upon all the mentions it was getting on here.

 

[Hermithead]

I'm guessing we're talking mid to late 20's, average or above average intelligence, single perpetrator, organised, local to Claremont and obviously someone quite capable of generally fitting in to society.

How do you arrive at above average intelligence, is it because they haven't been caught yet? The discovery of the bodies and the little effort put into concealing them could also indicate carelessness.

 

[Hermithead]

https://www.change.org/p/coroner-s-...-the-murders-of-jane-rimmer-and-ciara-glennon

 

[ExcaliburX]

He certainly was an intriguing character, an absolute cult figure on the BF forum. From what I have read on Big Footy he sent letters relating to the Claremont murders to the Commissioner of Police and Foxtel and even created a blog - that certainly takes effort and shows a lot of conviction for his cause and certainly goes along way in building up credibility. But what hard evidence does he have for his suspect and can it be confirmed?

I'm a first time reader* of the Droc posts on BF and his motive is what really confuses me. He waits four months to follow up with police after reporting to them that he suspects the person living on his property is a serial killer. And why continue to associate with someone if you suspect them of murder or more importantly expose yourself to the risk that they could turn on you? Where is his priority for self-preservation? His avoidance in providing facts also posed doubt. BF posters Paco lenester and Pea Nut had made requests on separate occasions and both of his responses were dismissive.

His real objective appears to be distorted, it doesn't appear to be about achieving justice for these poor girls but instead focuses himself as a victim... of the authorities.

If his suspect is the perpetrator then what gaps in the evidence need to filled in order to prosecute - that should be the focus. But first and more importantly, what verifiable evidence is there to justify this person as a suspect?

*Footnote - I posted on BF before Droc appeared on there. I never kept up with the thread and only returned to read it upon all the mentions it was getting on here.

Agree HH - why would he do this unless he was either guilty and deflecting responsibility, associated in some way or correct in his allegations (but completely blameless)?

Would he really risk crim prosecution at his age and background by making false accusations, unless..

He would also be a marked man inside. Big time.

No indication from his circle of friends that he went nuts - to the contrary in fact.

Influential friends too - sort of. Not sure I would go out on a limb and stake my reputation on his claims as they did - albeit the abridged version. Without any involvement from their reformed and trusted friend of course. Fair to say I think they would be rather damaged if he was in fact involved.

Zero empathy shown for the victims or families throughout his dialogue on BF.

Absolutely none.

Zero empathy from one of the people he accused either - or else they wouldn't be liking stun gun reaction videos on YouTube, making suggestive comments on FB, or putting cake knife pics on Flickr.

Must get their kicks from the SK suggestion.

There was plenty to be investigated in the claims by Droc.

DNA of him and his circle for a start - familial DNA too.

He hated police, hated TT and hated me when he thought I was either on BF.

And plenty came out - you just won't see it anymore on BF. Here too - the initials posted here the other day were deleted along with a potential location. Not by the relevant forum members either.

And he appears to have been protected. I know who I would be interviewing on oath.

Shame he didn't spill all he (eventually) claimed to know back in 1996/1997.

 

[Bartholemeus]

How do you arrive at above average intelligence, is it because they haven't been caught yet? The discovery of the bodies and the little effort put into concealing them could also indicate carelessness.

I also think the CSK is more than likely highly intelligent. Part gut feel from a profile perspective and part because he hasn't been caught. It's frightening to think how many serial killers have been caught on the first kill. Out of all the people busted for one murder, a reasonable percentage have to be people who would have gone on to be serial killers but were caught because of lack of experience and they made mistakes.

My profile I posted a few days back contradicts itself. On one hand I think "local, professional career, 25-35, blends into society" and on the other I'm thinking "taxi-driver, name rhymes with Steve Boss".

SR just doesn't fit my speculated profile except he has a taxi. If it's not him and if my profile is correct, it's someone else with access to a taxi or fake taxi. That doesn't add up because I think the killings stopped because the CSK was on the suspect list and had been interviewed.

So many conflicting scenarios makes it so hard to lean one way or the other.

 

[Bartholemeus]

He certainly was an intriguing character, an absolute cult figure on the BF forum.

I don't think he was a cult figure as such, but he did have a story to tell and getting the information out of him wasn't easy.

A BF poster contacted Droc via email and asked him to come on BF and put his story out there. That poster made it pretty clear to him that he would be scrutinised heavily. He told that poster that if anyone gave him a hard time he would pack up and leave. That poster told him that if he was confident in his story then it would stack up against the scrutiny.

So Droc signed up to BF and started posting his story. The biggest problem was he was unable to articulate his story in a simple top-down approach. He flitted from "WAPOL are corrupt" to "I just know there was a snuff movie made. I can't tell you why I know but trust me, I know" and then to showing us letters to TT that said "I suspect you guys made a snuff movie". And then, as pointed out, he moved from TT being the CSK to Michelle being the leader of a CSK group.

There's no evidence he had a mental issue but what I saw was a lot of ramblings that he was unable to put together. The line between what was fact and what was speculation was very blurry. He didn't know the difference.

I always wondered why all the media he dealt with never released the story? They seemed to back him in but when it came to the crunch they reported something else. I think they knew he had something (especially re WAPOL incompetence) but they just couldn't decipher exactly what it was because of Droc's inability to separate fact from speculation.

I also wondered why TT never took legal action? A number of things that spring to mind are Droc having no money, TT having something to hide (related or unrelated), but most of all, I think TT loved the attention and loved screwing with Droc. I also think a lot of online actions by TT suggest he likes fueling the fire (the cake knife etc). I think TT reads this stuff and then goes and posts stuff online to play up to it.

I can only assume WAPOL have ruled TT out and he's not a suspect.

 

[Shadowboxer]

Hmmm yes it says Wolcoot on maps doesn't it... I'm sure the sign says Woolcott. Maybe I'm wrong. Never know.

Yeah I always thought it was a subdue in car, take to kill site then dispose elsewhere situation. Firstly I find it hard to believe someone would be able to easily kill someone while driving, in a busy area like Claremont.


I am also trying hard to think what the ink/printing connection might be. Were they painted? Symbols? Or was it more an incidental finding?

Although I'm aware of why the details of the killing cannot be released and a part of me doesn't want to know such things, the other part wishes the details were available just for sleuthing purposes. This is definitely a case where I get the feeling a lot is being kept from the public.

I've heard some rumours about the mutilations (from someone I would consider reliable) and if this is true there are elements of the girls being... Incapacitated before they were killed.
Definitely think the killer took his time and enjoyed himself.

(

1. I always thought SR with a stun gun would be a quick way to subdue them.
2. Printing dye can be used to mask DNA
3. I also have been told info relating to the girls being incapacitated in a horrific way.