CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #47

[Emma Ems]

You are much closer to correct. A warrant wouldn't be connected to Dylan being a runaway. It would have to be connected to some evidence that a crime occurred or the belief that there was evidence of a crime that occurred and/or the belief that the evidence will be found at that location. As I stated previously, there are 3 elements.

Dylan is missing. There are two likely scenarios left. Abduction and/or foul play. Both of those are crimes. Therefore his being missing is the crime and probable cause for a warrant. It's very likely there may be clues or evidence as to what happened to him in the last place he was known to be, Mark's home. It's reasonable to assume there may be evidence at the last place he was known to be, it's also reasonable to assume that the house could be the location of where the crime occurred. It's not reasonable to assume that Dylan could have been either harmed inside the house, OR abducted from inside the house.

 

[Emma Ems]

We are not discussing exceptions to search warrants. There are several exceptions and they also have specific elements. The "exceptions" you are citing are not relevant to this discussion as this was not a "emergency" situation, otherwise known as hot pursuit, life in danger, etc. It also wasn't a school search, a prison, or a border search. Nor was it in conjunction with an arrest, plain view, consent, or anything else that would fall under the exception rules.
We are discussing the search warrant obtained on Mark Redwine's property and vehicles. An ordinary search warrant. The reason your example is invalid is due to the fact that the search wasn't immediate nor was it an "emergency". The warrant was served under usual circumstances, during daylight hours, (there are also rules on that).
I know what I know without a "link". As I mentioned previously, I studied law, have a degree in law and have a library at my disposal due to using it routinely in my own profession. You don't have to accept what I'm telling you. Take it or leave it. But I don't make this stuff up. It is our Constitutional right and I know my rights. I also know what holds up in a court of law. I have to or I wouldn't have much of a chance at having my own cases hold up in court.
I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative, but your example is not even on point to what we are discussing, so I'm merely attempting to educate.

The exception I cited was an exception the Ohio State Bar association listed. That was their example, not mine. Since they used that as an example I pointed out that since one was not even really needed according to their exception then why would a judge have a problem signing off on one?

 

[dlc]

It is also indicative of the fact that it does happen.

WRT Horbeck and Ownby, I think I was going by the date they were found, not abducted, and Ownby was abducted in 06.

BBM


Of course!

 

[NC Analyzer]

Dylan is missing. There are two likely scenarios left. Abduction and/or foul play. Both of those are crimes. Therefore his being missing is the crime and probable cause for a warrant. It's very likely there may be clues or evidence as to what happened to him in the last place he was known to be, Mark's home. It's reasonable to assume there may be evidence at the last place he was known to be, it's also reasonable to assume that the house could be the location of where the crime occurred. It's not reasonable to assume that Dylan could have been either harmed inside the house, OR abducted from inside the house.

I'm not disputing this. I'm trying to explain that there are necessary elements that MUST be met before a search warrant can be issued. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The elements have to be met BEFORE a warrant can be issued. The elements don't consist of assumptions. That isn't how it works.

 

[The Cheese]

IMO, it doesn't matter how many years we have to go back. I gave examples of 2 stranger abductions that happened less than 10 yrs ago, AND they were boys.

We don't have to go back any years, or even days. There are more than 21,000 non-family abductions perpetrated by strangers every year in the US. Multiples of them every single day. They just don't all hit national news. But the most recent to hit national news would be the girl in Northridge CA just a couple days ago (can't use her name on the forum any more).

Because stranger non-family abductions are fewer than non-stranger non-family abductions, and because they are relatively rare in comparison to the vast numbers of all types of abductions and missing children cases, they are, very unfortunately, by no means scarce.

 

[Annie1004]

And many people complained that it took 10 days before MR's house was searched via a search warrant... Sounds to me, short of an emergency, that LE had to submit specific reasons for the search before the judge would sign it, which could take some time. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Mark's house was thoroughly searched. Now what?

 

[The Cheese]

Yep. I'm feeling your pain. Not only do we have to go back 20 years, but there are only 3-4 children TOTAL that fit the criteria. Rare.

Surely you're not stating that we have to go back 20 years to find a stranger abduction, and that there have only been 3-4 children total that have been abducted by strangers? Could you clarify please because I must be misunderstanding your post.

 

[Ghostwheel]

In addition to Ben & Shawn, there is also Steven Stayner.

I have to mention, Steven was 7 years old, not 13 (or even close to it), when he was taken. He was 13 when he was found, though.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Surely you're not stating that we have to go back 20 years to find a stranger abduction, and that there have only been 3-4 children total that have been abducted by strangers? Could you clarify please because I must be misunderstanding your post.

I think we were trying to find 13 year old boys that were victims of stranger abduction (that does narrow it down a bit), and there has been some trouble finding very many. Do you have some?

 

[NC Analyzer]

Surely you're not stating that we have to go back 20 years to find a stranger abduction, and that there have only been 3-4 children total that have been abducted by strangers? Could you clarify please because I must be misunderstanding your post.

Yes. Stranger abductions are RARE. I googled it. This is the first article that comes up:

Studies by Finkelhor's center and the Justice Department have found that there are roughly 110 child abductions by strangers each year.

By comparison, more than 250,000 children a year are abducted by family members or people they know, with most returned within a few hours.

So as terrifying as stranger abductions are, Finkelhor said it's important for parents to keep the incidents in perspective. Children, he said, are much more at risk from people already in their lives.

"The criminal victimizations that they are more likely to experience are at the hands of peers and relatives, and so being thoughtful about those things is more important," he said.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_bb87b96f-4f08-5db6-93f1-14b9d1ce886d.html

I know everyone wants to believe that this is happening all around them, but I've had the privilege of attending a seminar that encouraged many in my field to dispel the overblown hysteria that the media perpetuates about this myth of bad strangers running around abducting out children. It is RARE.

 

[otto]

Dylan is missing. There are two likely scenarios left. Abduction and/or foul play. Both of those are crimes. Therefore his being missing is the crime and probable cause for a warrant. It's very likely there may be clues or evidence as to what happened to him in the last place he was known to be, Mark's home. It's reasonable to assume there may be evidence at the last place he was known to be, it's also reasonable to assume that the house could be the location of where the crime occurred. It's not reasonable to assume that Dylan could have been either harmed inside the house, OR abducted from inside the house.

BBM

In the "two likely scenarios", only one is resolved with a warrant to the father's home. The other likely scenario, abduction, has no warrant option.

Even if it's not reasonable to assume that Dylan was harmed, or abducted from, inside the house, it's still reasonable to assume that he was abducted from outside the house (the other scenario).

Two likely scenarios, one has a warrant option, the other does not ... because the identity of a potential abductor is unknown.

 

[mixologist74]

BBM

In the "two likely scenarios", only one is resolved with a warrant to the father's home. The other likely scenario, abduction, has no warrant option.

Even if it's not reasonable to assume that Dylan was harmed, or abducted from, inside the house, it's still reasonable to assume that he was abducted from outside the house (the other scenario).

Two likely scenarios, one has a warrant option, the other does not ... because the identity of a potential abductor is unknown.

IMO, they could have asked for a warrant even in the event that they were thinking of abduction, due to needing fingerprints, fibers, etc.(from the alleged abductor) from the home. They could have taken other things too, as long as "items related to Dylan's disappearance" was something covered on the affidavit, IMO.

 

[Emma Ems]

BBM

In the "two likely scenarios", only one is resolved with a warrant to the father's home. The other likely scenario, abduction, has no warrant option.

Even if it's not reasonable to assume that Dylan was harmed, or abducted from, inside the house, it's still reasonable to assume that he was abducted from outside the house (the other scenario).

Two likely scenarios, one has a warrant option, the other does not ... because the identity of a potential abductor is unknown.

I have to note, I made a typo. Not unreasonable to assume....sorry there. I also think it's reasonable to assume he was abducted outside the home. I recall a case from a long time ago, I can't remember the person's name, but the were abducted as they answered the door of their house.

Am I wrong in this: I was reading how now it is required for all homicide scenes to have warrants. If you have to have a warrant to process a homicide, and with two, scenarios abduction or possible homicide and you weren't sure exactly which, would you go ahead and get that warrant just in case you later discovered it was indeed the scene of a homicide?

 

[otto]

IMO, they could have asked for a warrant even in the event that they were thinking of abduction, due to needing fingerprints, fibers, etc.(from the alleged abductor) from the home. They could have taken other things too, as long as "items related to Dylan's disappearance" was something covered on the affidavit, IMO.

Police got a warrant and the home has been searched, hasn't it?

 

[The Cheese]

I think we were trying to find 13 year old boys that were victims of stranger abduction (that does narrow it down a bit), and there has been some trouble finding very many. Do you have some?

Ah thank you. I did misunderstand then.

That NISMART document I posted has statistics. Some math will be necessary, but the charts have all the necessary info on how many non-family abductions are perpetrated by strangers, how many are teens (there are 2 age groups that include teens - these are the 1st and 2nd largest victim groups), 35 percent of all non-family abductions have male victims.

I had to take a pain pill tonight, and I'm not up to doing the math. I'd be happy to do it tomorrow.

 

[Ghostwheel]

We don't have to go back any years, or even days. There are more than 21,000 non-family abductions perpetrated by strangers every year in the US. Multiples of them every single day. They just don't all hit national news. But the most recent to hit national news would be the girl in Northridge CA just a couple days ago (can't use her name on the forum any more).

Because stranger non-family abductions are fewer than non-stranger non-family abductions, and because they are relatively rare in comparison to the vast numbers of all types of abductions and missing children cases, they are, very unfortunately, by no means scarce.

BBM: I think you may have this written wrong. A non-family abduction is not the same as a stranger non-family abduction. Per this link:
http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf
Non-family abductions are approximately 58,200 per year.
Stranger or slight acquaintance kidnappings are 115 per year. (That isn't multiples per day) Out of those 80 are female, 35 are male, and I didn't see the breakdown by male age.

 

[otto]

I have to note, I made a typo. Not unreasonable to assume....sorry there. I also think it's reasonable to assume he was abducted outside the home. I recall a case from a long time ago, I can't remember the person's name, but the were abducted as they answered the door of their house.

Am I wrong in this: I was reading how now it is required for all homicide scenes to have warrants. If you have to have a warrant to process a homicide, and with two, scenarios abduction or possible homicide and you weren't sure exactly which, would you go ahead and get that warrant just in case you later discovered it was indeed the scene of a homicide?

I don't think that search warrants are issued lightly. Email/computer/phone can be searched without a warrant if it's a matter of national defense, but otherwise not. A warrant is only issued when there is probable cause. What probable cause was there that a crime occurred in the father's home? Without probable cause, there is no warrant. The fact that Dylan was last at his father's house, and the father left early in the morning, is enough to open the possibility that Dylan left of his own free will - especially in light of the hitch-hiking rumors.

 

[mixologist74]

Police got a warrant and the home has been searched, hasn't it?

Yes. I don't recall stating that it hadn't been.

 

[Emma Ems]

I don't think that search warrants are issued lightly. Email/computer/phone can be searched without a warrant if it's a matter of national defense, but otherwise not. A warrant is only issued when there is probable cause. What probable cause was there that a crime occurred in the father's home? Without probable cause, there is no warrant. The fact that Dylan was last at his father's house, and the father left early in the morning, is enough to open the possibility that Dylan left of his own free will - especially in light of the hitch-hiking rumors.

You mentioned kidnapping/abduction being a warrantless crime, meaning you don't need a warrant to search correct? I am just wondering if it was presented to a judge in this way(we don't need a warrant to search because we believe he was abducted but can you sign off on one just in case we uncover something that points us in a different direction?) could they get one? Someone mentioned a warrant served on Jessica's Ridgeway's house, how was that warrant obtained? Why did they even need one?

 

[The Cheese]

Yes. Stranger abductions are RARE. I googled it. This is the first article that comes up:

Studies by Finkelhor's center and the Justice Department have found that there are roughly 110 child abductions by strangers each year.

By comparison, more than 250,000 children a year are abducted by family members or people they know, with most returned within a few hours.

So as terrifying as stranger abductions are, Finkelhor said it's important for parents to keep the incidents in perspective. Children, he said, are much more at risk from people already in their lives.

"The criminal victimizations that they are more likely to experience are at the hands of peers and relatives, and so being thoughtful about those things is more important," he said.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_bb87b96f-4f08-5db6-93f1-14b9d1ce886d.html

I know everyone wants to believe that this is happening all around them, but I've had the privilege of attending a seminar that encouraged many in my field to dispel the overblown hysteria that the media perpetuates about this myth of bad strangers running around abducting out children. It is RARE.

Well there are many more than 110 abductions by strangers each year. Finkelhor seems to be confusing stereotypical kidnappings with stranger abductions, but I find that many people don't understand the difference.

There are 58,200 non-family abductions per year, with more than 21,000 of those stranger perpetrated abductions, according to NCMEC and NISMART.

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf

I agree that stranger abductions are relatively more rare than non-stranger non-family abductions, and certainly relatively more rare than non-stranger non-family abductions combined with family abductions, although that's mixing apples and oranges IMO.

Thanks for clarifying, although now I'm confused because someone above said you meant abductions only of young teen boys. Doesn't matter. I'm now interested in calculating how many of the 21,000+ stranger abductions per year are of teen boys.