CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #48

[sarx]

I'm afraid it's way too late for a trailing dog to work this one.

 

[mijamawi]

I'm afraid it's way too late for a trailing dog to work this one.

Thanks, Sarx. I don't know why I had it in my head the scent could last 6 mos, but it's 6 weeks, right?

 

[sarx]

Thanks, Sarx. I don't know why I had it in my head the scent could last 6 mos, but it's 6 weeks, right?

Even 6 weeks is really really pushing the limits of what has been successfully documented for trailing dogs.

 

[Redhead72]

BBM in blue

We don't "know" that "all" calls are routed to LPCSO. Right in your post, your quote says only non-emergency calls are routed to LPCSO. :facepalm:

He more probably just hit 911. My opinion.

First, it was not a direct quote, otherwise I would have identified it as such. Those were my statements reporting what I researched and discovered. The reason I said non-emergency calls, is because in an emergency people are instructed to call 911.

I obviously don't know what MR truly did - whether he went to the MOs office, as he said he did originally, which then changed to he merely "contacted them". Whether he called as was stated in the Durango Herald, nor when he called, or if he actually reached someone in person at the office if and when he did. I suggested that perhaps he reached an answering machine, or it could be that the call was logged on his cellphone.

Here is my reasoning on this:
If the after-hours 24-hour dispatch line goes to the LPCSO, then wouldn't the 911 calls go immediately to that dispatch after local hours as well? If not, then why do the 24 hour calls get routed to LPCSO in the first place? 911 is an automated system. If need be I will call the Bayfield MO and ask, but that is neither here nor there, really.

In my post - which were my words, not a quote - were that the non-emergency 24-hour-dispatch line was the number for the LPCSO. It's a reasonable deduction that after hours 911 calls would be routed to the same department as the Marshals Office is closed, and there is no 24-hour-dispatch through that department.

I have absolutely no problem with your opinion in regard to which number MR called to get in contact with the MO. I am not arguing that you are wrong to suggest that perhaps MR dialed 911. It is my opinion that he did not.

Fact: Bayfield MO does not have a 24-hour-dispatch call number. The number stated on the MO's webpage belongs to the government offices in Durango, and more specifically to the LPCSO.

Inference: Seeing as Bayfield MO does not have a 24-hour-dispatch, it is inferred that after hours 911 calls would be routed to the same 24-hour-dispatch at the LPCSO, as there is no-one at the MOs office to receive the calls.

Opinions:

1.) Unless I misunderstood, it is your opinion that MR called 911 to contact the Bayfield MO. (And, I have no problem with that at all - just to make it clear - I'm not arguing about your opinion, and I fully respect that.)

2.) It is my opinion that he called the MOs regular phone number to inquire if they had seen DR.

3.) It is the opinion of others that MR may have gone in person to the MOs office as he stated at first, and spoke in person with someone there.

4.) Yet others are of the opinion that he went there in person, found the office closed and then called someone at the MOs office

(I personally find the last opinion less likely as the 24-hour-dispatch number he should have called - unless he dialed 911 - would not be recorded as contact with the MOs office, it would be classified as contact with the LPCSO. If my inference is correct and if after-hours the 911 calls are routed to the 24-hour-dispatch call center, then that would be classified as contact with the LPCSO. But my disagreement with that opinion, is my opinion only, and I concede that it is partially based upon an inference.)

Summary:

All 4 of the above opinions (yours, mine, and others) are respectable, and valid opinions.

The inference of mine that 911 calls after hours would be routed to the same 24-hour-dispatch call center could be wrong. I fully admit that as it's only an educated guess. There is also a possibility that all 911 calls are routed to the 24-hour-dispatch center, and dispatch then calls Bayfield while the office is open to direct officers where they are needed. Again, these are all educated guesses - not truly an opinion, and of course, not fact at this time.

FACT: The Bayfield MO is only open from 9-3pm Mon-Fri, and are not open on the weekends at all.

FACT: the 24-hour-dispatch phone number listed on the MO website to be used when the office is closed belongs to the LPSCO. The 24-hour-dispatch line can be called in case of an emergency, or in a non-emergency situation, however most people would dial 911 in an emergency situation. (I apologize that my statement may have caused confusion. The MOs page doesn't specify "non-emergency")

For reference to the Bayfield MO's website and the information on office hours, and phone numbers, please see;
http://www.bayfieldgov.org/services/marshals.asp

Again, I have no problem with others opinions on this matter.

I believe my inference to be correct, as was my inference that was later proven - that 24-hour-dispatch call center belongs to the LPCSO. My inference can be proven wrong or right at some point with proven facts, therefore it is not technically an opinion (opinions cannot be proven right or wrong), but would more properly be called an educated guess at this point in time.

 

[dlc]

dlc,

These links may help. We don't always see the offending posts so they may not be removed right away. If you feel a post is against our terms of service then just alert on it. If you have any questions at all you can pm me or any Mod, we are all happy to help.

The Rules
Terms of Service Short Version
We have a detailed, formal Terms of Service (TOS) posted separately, and that TOS is what you will be held to as a member here. It's long and detailed because it has to be in the world we live in, and you are expected to read it, understand it and abide by it. However, we can sum it up as follows:
1) Be a decent human being;
2) Treat your fellow posters as the decent human beings they are;
3) Keep in mind that whatever you post will likely live on forever, so think before you press "Submit Reply".
4) It's a big world. People will disagree with you. You will disagree with them. This can be done with respect, and that's what we expect.

Dear Imamaze,

A genuine thank you for being so gracious in your response, and offering to help.

Best,

dlc

 

[The Cheese]

First, it was not a direct quote, otherwise I would have identified it as such. Those were my statements reporting what I researched and discovered. The reason I said non-emergency calls, is because in an emergency people are instructed to call 911.

I obviously don't know what MR truly did - whether he went to the MOs office, as he said he did originally, which then changed to he merely "contacted them". Whether he called as was stated in the Durango Herald, nor when he called, or if he actually reached someone in person at the office if and when he did. I suggested that perhaps he reached an answering machine, or it could be that the call was logged on his cellphone.

Here is my reasoning on this:
If the after-hours 24-hour dispatch line goes to the LPCSO, then wouldn't the 911 calls go immediately to that dispatch after local hours as well? If not, then why do the 24 hour calls get routed to LPCSO in the first place? 911 is an automated system. If need be I will call the Bayfield MO and ask, but that is neither here nor there, really.

In my post - which were my words, not a quote - were that the non-emergency 24-hour-dispatch line was the number for the LPCSO. It's a reasonable deduction that after hours 911 calls would be routed to the same department as the Marshals Office is closed, and there is no 24-hour-dispatch through that department.

I have absolutely no problem with your opinion in regard to which number MR called to get in contact with the MO. I am not arguing that you are wrong to suggest that perhaps MR dialed 911. It is my opinion that he did not.

Fact: Bayfield MO does not have a 24-hour-dispatch call number. The number stated on the MO's webpage belongs to the government offices in Durango, and more specifically to the LPCSO.

Inference: Seeing as Bayfield MO does not have a 24-hour-dispatch, it is inferred that after hours 911 calls would be routed to the same 24-hour-dispatch at the LPCSO, as there is no-one at the MOs office to receive the calls.

Opinions:

1.) Unless I misunderstood, it is your opinion that MR called 911 to contact the Bayfield MO. (And, I have no problem with that at all - just to make it clear - I'm not arguing about your opinion, and I fully respect that.)

2.) It is my opinion that he called the MOs regular phone number to inquire if they had seen DR.

3.) It is the opinion of others that MR may have gone in person to the MOs office as he stated at first, and spoke in person with someone there.

4.) Yet others are of the opinion that he went there in person, found the office closed and then called someone at the MOs office

(I personally find the last opinion less likely as the 24-hour-dispatch number he should have called - unless he dialed 911 - would not be recorded as contact with the MOs office, it would be classified as contact with the LPCSO. If my inference is correct and if after-hours the 911 calls are routed to the 24-hour-dispatch call center, then that would be classified as contact with the LPCSO. But my disagreement with that opinion, is my opinion only, and I concede that it is partially based upon an inference.)

Summary:

All 4 of the above opinions (yours, mine, and others) are respectable, and valid opinions.

The inference of mine that 911 calls after hours would be routed to the same 24-hour-dispatch call center could be wrong. I fully admit that as it's only an educated guess. There is also a possibility that all 911 calls are routed to the 24-hour-dispatch center, and dispatch then calls Bayfield while the office is open to direct officers where they are needed. Again, these are all educated guesses - not truly an opinion, and of course, not fact at this time.

FACT: The Bayfield MO is only open from 9-3pm Mon-Fri, and are not open on the weekends at all.

FACT: the 24-hour-dispatch phone number listed on the MO website to be used when the office is closed belongs to the LPSCO. The 24-hour-dispatch line can be called in case of an emergency, or in a non-emergency situation, however most people would dial 911 in an emergency situation. (I apologize that my statement may have caused confusion. The MOs page doesn't specify "non-emergency")

For reference to the Bayfield MO's website and the information on office hours, and phone numbers, please see;
http://www.bayfieldgov.org/services/marshals.asp

Again, I have no problem with others opinions on this matter.

I believe my inference to be correct, as was my inference that was later proven - that 24-hour-dispatch call center belongs to the LPCSO. My inference can be proven wrong or right at some point with proven facts, therefore it is not technically an opinion (opinions cannot be proven right or wrong), but would more properly be called an educated guess at this point in time.

Thank you, and I apologize. I was really tired last night, and I read your post wrong.

Here's what the marshall's office website says

Hours of Operation
Monday - Friday
9 am - 3 pm
Phone: 884-9636
Emergency: 9-1-1
24-Hour dispatch: 385-2900
Fax: 970-884-2195
http://www.bayfieldgov.org/services/marshals.asp

I imagine you can dial 911 anytime, 24/7. You can everywhere I know of.

I don't see where it says you have to use the 24 hr dispatch number after 3, but you have that tagged as FACT. Could you guide me to that on the website?

I think most people would hit 911 rather than dial a longer number.

I don't think the press release saying MR "contacted" the marshall's office precludes him having gone there and/or called them.

I think MR may have gone there and/or called them.

The important thing to me is that MR contacted law enforcement about not being able to find Dylan.

My opinion. I'm fine with everyone else's opinion.

 

[Redhead72]

Snipped to focus on this sentence:
I also wonder about the word "attempting" in attempting to learn if they had seen Dylan.

BBM

The word "attempting" is what I based my supposition on stating that I believed it was likely that MR may called the Marshals Office phone number after hours, and perhaps left a message on an answering machine inquiring about DR - instead of hanging up and calling the 24-hour-dispatch number that goes to the LPCSO, or dialing 911. It would fit in with "contacting them", and "attempting" to learn, versus confirmed contact with the MO office in real-time, and "actually" inquiring and receiving an answer, and the MO not offering to file a report, or start the ball rolling to find him.

 

[Dee10]

Just for the record in the MB interview Mark doesn't say he called the Marshall's office, he claims to have gone to the Marshall's office:

[FONT=&quot]when I got down to the Marshall’s Office or to his friend Ryan’s house or Fernando…anyway... when I ran across his friends and they hadn’t heard from him – then that’s when I went over to the Marshall’s Office and told them that, you know, we need to find him, make contact with him. They were going to put out like a wellness check or they just notify the local authorities to keep an eye out for him and make contact with him so somebody can “bang him in the head” and say, “Hey, your dad’s trying to get a hold of you. Your friends are trying to get a hold of you. You need to communicate to somebody.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But at that moment in time…, I felt the need to address this issue with mom, so I immediately asked her had she heard from him and indicated to her that I hadn’t heard from him all day and that I was at the Marshall’s office taking care of this, and that’s when pretty much all hell broke loose with her. [/FONT]

from the TxJan transcript

 

[Redhead72]

Just using your list to kinda jump off of.

I live in a small town with other 4 other small towns by me. They each have their own police departments. However they are all also sheriffs. If something happens say in the next town over the police from my town can go over and do what needs to be done. We also have state patrol that comes through here from time to time and they are also sheriffs. With Vallecito being so small I wonder if that is how they are set up also. MOO

Hi, findDylan. I don't know if you saw my post in regard to the way these departments work within CO after writing this post or not, so I just wanted to link you up to what I researched, and what I am personally knowledgeable about in regard to LE hierarchy in CO itself. Different states have different setups. Even in Colorado, there are 2 exceptions - Broomfield City and County, and Denver City and County which are combined, and set up differently than regular County and municipal LE agencies.

Anyway, here is a link to my post:
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9152897&postcount=388"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #48[/ame]

 

[Redhead72]

Just for the record in the MB interview Mark doesn't say he called the Marshall's office, he claims to have gone to the Marshall's office:

from the TxJan transcript

There are so many things that could be proven factually wrong with MR's statement that it boggles the mind. Especially if one matches up the times in which MR reports everything happening that afternoon, along with travel times, etc...

Then there is the statement that they would do a "wellness check", which I addressed last night - they can't do a wellness check if there is no actual place the person is known to be at, and DR was supposed to be with MR at his home, so where did MR want LE to go?

Then he said "or they just notify local law enforcement". If he was at the MO, and speaking to someone there, then he was already speaking with the LOCAL LE agency.

It is known that MR contacted ER at around 5-5:30 pm asking if she had seen DR or knew where he was. He stated to her that he told her he was at the MO "taking care of it" at that moment. If the office closed at 3pm, then who was he speaking with in order to "handle it".

His statements make absolutely no sense at all.
Also please note in the first part he said, when he went to the MO or to his friend Ryan's House or Fernando... anyway...

He keeps changing when he supposedly went to the MO office.

We know that he said he took a nap and woke up around 1:30, then he said 2:30, the times on when he actually woke up continue to change as well. Taking in driving time to get from his home to the MO, and he states that he searched out DR's friends first, then how did he reach the MO before they closed.

Sorry this post itself is rather disjointed - it's hard to point things out in a statement that contradicts itself to begin with.

All of the above is MOO! :cow:

 

[Redhead72]

Thank you, and I apologize. I was really tired last night, and I read your post wrong.

Here's what the marshall's office website says

Hours of Operation
Monday - Friday
9 am - 3 pm
Phone: 884-9636
Emergency: 9-1-1
24-Hour dispatch: 385-2900
Fax: 970-884-2195
http://www.bayfieldgov.org/services/marshals.asp

I imagine you can dial 911 anytime, 24/7. You can everywhere I know of.

I don't see where it says you have to use the 24 hr dispatch number after 3, but you have that tagged as FACT. Could you guide me to that on the website?

I think most people would hit 911 rather than dial a longer number.

I don't think the press release saying MR "contacted" the marshall's office precludes him having gone there and/or called them.

I think MR may have gone there and/or called them.

The important thing to me is that MR contacted law enforcement about not being able to find Dylan.

My opinion. I'm fine with everyone else's opinion.

BBM - I do not see how my fact statement conflicts with the above. 911 is of course available 24 hours and from anywhere.

The 24-hour-dispatch line is posted on the MO page because after 3pm, and on weekends when the office is closed you would not be able to reach anyone directly at the office through that phone number because it is closed.

There would be no reason to list the 24-hour-dispatch line if someone was always available to answer the non-emergency line at the MO even after-hours or on the weekends.

I pulled out my fact statement here, just for good measure:

"FACT: the 24-hour-dispatch phone number listed on the MO website to be used when the office is closed belongs to the LPSCO. The 24-hour-dispatch line can be called in case of an emergency, or in a non-emergency situation, however most people would dial 911 in an emergency situation. (I apologize that my statement may have caused confusion. The MOs page doesn't specify "non-emergency")"

BBM - In the above statement you can see where I stated that most people would simply call 911 to reach LE in a situation where they required immediate assistance from the LE (an emergency).

I don't disagree with anything else you have posted, and it's not really a disagreement I have with what you posted questioning the statement I made as fact, but rather a clarification of what I stated.

 

[Redhead72]

"Gentlemanly" is a funny word for MR, sorry. Whether or not he did it, I don't think he's a gentleman at all.

Snipped.

IMHO, I believe that MR's actions show him to be the exact opposite of "gentlemanly". The specifics of which I base my opinion on though, I don't think can be discussed last time I looked because it would mean bringing up actions of his that occurred before DR was missing.

I suppose my opinion of his character is neither here nor there, but I personally find it odd that people (in general) have classified MR as being naive, and uneducated (or less well-educated), or not capable of being clear and well-spoken, or easily manipulated and bullied (in re: to the DP show), as a way of defending him.

IMO, if someone were to say those things in order to attempt to defend someone it wouldn't be helpful at all. Stating those things about MR, is actually quite derogatory to suggest.

My opinions of MR's character as I have observed from the limited amount I have seen do end up being derogatory towards him, but it's a different situation. I do not think MR is naive or uneducated, nor do I believe him to be incapable of being well-spoken and clear. I do not believe that he is incapacitated to a point where he cannot remember what he did, and express that in a clear and concise manner. To make an assumption like that - unless someone can prove that he had a mental illness, or other type of deficit of that nature (like a learning disability, or speech problem) - is demeaning to him, imo.

Again all of the above is, MOO! :cow:

 

[TxLady2]

I guess that the SO in the county that I live in could legally respond to crimes in the city but I don't see it happening. Both agency's have budget short falls so I don't see them taking on more work by servicing areas that they don't have to. MOO.

Oh, they don't do it unless they have to, it's just that they CAN if the need arises. They don't patrol within the city limits, but if they are close enough to the scene of a crime or something, they could respond if it was a life-threatening situation.

 

[Redhead72]

BBM. The pictures are amazing. The ice is melting faster then I thought it would. I am anxious for it to melt. JMO

I just hope the water itself warms up quickly as well. The average water temp in the summer is 60 degrees. Right now the average water temp is still below 45 degrees (37/38 last I checked) and until it starts to go above that, IF there is a body in the water, it will likely remain submerged, and to get divers to the bottom will be hard. I do not know how high even in the summer the water at the deepest part of the lake by the dam really warms up. It's around 280 ft. at that point...

I just keep hoping that the ROVs can get to the bottom at the area the dogs indicated on, and find the answer.

 

[TxLady2]

TxLady... mixup already acknowledged, a couple posts below that one you quoted

Thank you, I had not read that far yet. Sorry.

 

[Psychic Sleuth]

I just hope the water itself warms up quickly as well. The average water temp in the summer is 60 degrees. Right now the average water temp is still below 45 degrees (37/38 last I checked) and until it starts to go above that, IF there is a body in the water, it will likely remain submerged, and to get divers to the bottom will be hard. I do not know how high even in the summer the water at the deepest part of the lake by the dam really warms up. It's around 280 ft. at that point...

I just keep hoping that the ROVs can get to the bottom at the area the dogs indicated on, and find the answer.

I think the plan is to bring in SONAR and ROV's. That is all that is needed (no divers). The ROV can actually recover a body.

 

[Tennlyn]

I think the plan is to bring in SONAR and ROV's. That is all that is needed (no divers). The ROV can actually recover a body.

Anyone know how that works in terms of court cases (chain of evidence, defense attorneys arguing about damage from the ROV rather than injuries caused by their client, etc.)?

 

[rebeccaeee]

Anyone know how that works in terms of court cases (chain of evidence, defense attorneys arguing about damage from the ROV rather than injuries caused by their client, etc.)?

http://www.pro-rov.com/images/Human_Body_Search_Recover_Using_Mini-ROVs_19Jan09__Formatt.pdf

This is an interesting article about ROVs...they suggest using an ROV to pinpoint the location of a body and then sending divers for it to preserve a potential crime scene. I would think divers *could* go down long enough to retrieve a body at 200 ft but I don't know for sure. Interesting reading, still. Just beginning to google....

ETA: some content and images might not be for the faint of heart. Sorry.

 

[Redhead72]

So would this rule out him calling? The LPCSO does not state that he never "contacted" someone at BMO, it states they found out he did contact someone at BMO.

No, I did not say that it ruled out the possibility that MR called the Bayfield Marshals Office. I was stating that it is extremely unlikely that he dialed the Bayfield Marshal Office after 3pm and was able to contact anyone at the office when it was closed. (Also, MR stated that he was at the MO at 5-5:30 pm when he texted ER, and at that time the office was indeed closed).

So if calls are routed through SO they probably would have sent him a SO deputy(if he lives outside of the BMO jurisdiction) and there would have been a record of the call at the SO, so they wouldn't need to go through BMO to verify that he spoke with some there, or would they?

If MR called the MO direct phone number after hours he would not have reached anyone in person as the office was closed. A phone call directly to the MOs office number does not get automatically transferred to the LPCSO.

There would most likely be an automated answering machine which would indicate that the office was closed, what the office hours were, and directing the person calling to dial the 24-hour-dispatch number after hours, or to dial 911 in case of an emergency.

It is my belief that there is also likely a way to record a message for the Marshal or officers under him, and that could be how they would be able to confirm that MR "contacted" the MO, and "attempted" to learn if they had seen him. The LPCSO would have to then verify that someone received a call or message from MR on Monday afternoon.

So that kind of leaves us with he had to speak to someone from BMO in person.

I do not see where this leads to the conclusion that he had to have spoken with someone in person. An answering machine message attempting to inquire would satisfy the parameters stated by LE in the press release. A cell phone record from MR's phone could also be used to verify that he attempted to contact the MO to inquire if they had seen him.

IF the LPCSO had to verify through cell phone records that MR indeed attempted to contact MO if there was no message left, then it may explain why the press release in March was worded the way it was.

Was Town Hall still open when he went to the BMO? Could they have called someone on patrol to him? Or was there an officer there, maybe in the parking lot? Did he happen to pass a patrol man and flag him down? Or, ok here our LE is small and we generally know everyone so I have a couple of LE cell numbers as they are personal friends, did he call an officer he knew?

Just some thoughts in general...

Whether the Town Hall building was open or not would depend upon when MR actually arrived there, if he did physically go there as he has stated. If her was there after 5pm when he texted ER, then most likely not, as Town hall closes at 5pm.

I do not think workers in City Hall would have a way to contact a patrol officer in order to officially dispatch one to MR. However I do not know, and it is - as you mentioned - possible that in a small town someone may have the home phone number of one of the officers, or the Marshal himself they could have contacted on his behalf - or MR could have called himself. However, I would think that MR would have mentioned that instead of merely stating he "went to the MO office" to find out if they had seen him. Again, the LE press release states specifically that he "attempted" to find out, but not that he actually spoke to anyone officially associated with the MO.

As to whether he could have run into someone in the Parking Lot, or flagged down a patrol officer, again that would likely depend upon when he arrived at the MO. I however, have no way of knowing if the MO has people on patrol to be sent on calls after the MO is closed. It may be up to the LPCSO to patrol the area and respond to all dispatches after 3pm, and on the weekends. This is something that would need to be addressed to the MO and Sheriff's office itself though.

My answers to your questions, and my responses to your ideas are above in green. It is not my intention to disagree with your opinion on any of the specific points I addressed in my comments. I am merely explaining how I am seeing things, and I have tried to indicate well what is my opinion, what I regard as a likely inference. I don't think I made any statements of pure fact that can't be referenced in my past posts, but please do let me know if you see something I missed, or didn't state clearly, OK? It gets complicated when I've asked a bunch of questions, and you've asked a bunch of questions - not that I'm complaining about it! LOL

As always, all of the above is MOO! :cow:

 

[Tennlyn]

http://www.pro-rov.com/images/Human_Body_Search_Recover_Using_Mini-ROVs_19Jan09__Formatt.pdf

This is an interesting article about ROVs...they suggest using an ROV to pinpoint the location of a body and then sending divers for it to preserve a potential crime scene. I would think divers *could* go down long enough to retrieve a body at 200 ft but I don't know for sure. Interesting reading, still. Just beginning to google....

ETA: some content and images might not be for the faint of heart. Sorry.

Thanks for the link! I've been spending a lot of time contemplating justice for Dylan. :jail: