CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #50

[cluciano63]

It is hard to think of ten years of sexual and physical abuse as a positive outcome...hope those girls/young women can recover.

 

[The Cheese]

It is hard to think of ten years of sexual and physical abuse as a positive outcome...hope those girls/young women can recover.

Wow. It's hard for me to think of alleviating the daily suffering and brutalization of kidnap victims as anything but a positive outcome.

 

[RANCH]

[/B]

IIRC MR mentioned the school football story in response to MB's question about whether or not he had talked to Dylan about how he liked his new school. I didn't interpret it as being him slamming ER - it was simply an anecdote he shared in response to a question. The only hint of criticism, if any, was in reference to all children having the opportunity to play football if they wanted in middle school.






“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
Stephen Hawking

To be honest I haven't gone back and listened to the MB interview with Mark but your post refreshes my memory of it and I believe that your correct.

 

[mijamawi]

Hearing Dylan was interested in playing football really took me by surprise because he was a devoted baseball player. Someone pointed out that football players practice and play during the summer and so do baseball players so Dylan would not be able to play both sports in CS.

<modsnip>. MOO

Not sure how it is in other states but here in Texas, middle school football starts when school starts. There may be optional summer workouts, but my son plays both baseball and football and there's no interference.

 

[cluciano63]

Wow. It's hard for me to think of alleviating the daily suffering and brutalization of kidnap victims as anything but a positive outcome.

I think of a positive outcome as one where Dylan would be someplace his father stowed him, and now does not know what to do to make him reappear, one where he did not suffer for a decade in the most unimaginable ways possible. But of course we have already had the debate about fates worse than death, etc. and how some people can recover and live happy, healthy lives. I hope those young women can do so.

I guess I feel like I could not recover from such an experience but am relieved if others can, of course.

 

[catswhiskers]

IMO the only reason the word positive was used was in contrast to the alternative - which would be death. I am sure the parents of the Ohio women would be seeing their daughters' escape as a huge positive after all these years. A day, week or years later it would be a positive outcome in my eyes if I was a parent - given the alternative.


&#8220;The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.&#8221;
Stephen Hawking

 

[cluciano63]

IMO the only reason the word positive was used was in contrast to the alternative - which would be death. I am sure the parents of the Ohio women would be seeing their daughters' escape as a huge positive after all these years. A day, week or years later it would be a positive outcome in my eyes if I was a parent - given the alternative.


“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
Stephen Hawking

I hope the child also agrees, that is all I am saying.

 

[The Cheese]

I think of a positive outcome as one where Dylan would be someplace his father stowed him, and now does not know what to do to make him reappear, one where he did not suffer for a decade in the most unimaginable ways possible. But of course we have already had the debate about fates worse than death, etc. and how some people can recover and live happy, healthy lives. I hope those young women can do so.

I guess I feel like I could not recover from such an experience but am relieved if others can, of course.

You didn't talk about Dylan in your post - only about the 3 young women. I responded to what you said in your post.

I've avoided the debate you mention, and I'm not going to get involved in it.

 

[catswhiskers]

I hope the child also agrees, that is all I am saying.

I must be missing something as I honestly don't understand. A poor abducted child, and their family for that matter, have IMO been robbed (by the perpetrator) of their ability to agree or disagree about anything. What is left is hope. So... hope for what? An end to suffering via death, to remain alive in continued captivity, or release/escape to be reunited with loved ones?

 

[cluciano63]

I must be missing something as I honestly don't understand. A poor abducted child, and their family for that matter, have IMO been robbed (by the perpetrator) of their ability to agree or disagree about anything. What is left is hope. So... hope for what? An end to suffering via death, to remain alive in continued captivity, or release/escape to be reunited with loved ones?

All I mean is I hope the girls can recover and be happy. That is all. It is not a given, IMO.

 

[Seajay]

The three women being found and rescued from a monster who abused them emotionally, sexually and physicaly for 10 years IS a positive outcome. They have finally escaped captivity and the abuse.

What parent would rather have their child dead then recovered, rescued and returned to them????

Jaycee Dugard, Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornback all were kidnapped and abused sexually, emotionally, etc. They had the positive outcome of being rescued, as opposed to being brutally murdered. They are all doing well and thriving in spite of their ordeals. They've all started a new beginning and have taken control of their lives. That is a positive outcome. IMO, JMO, MOO.

 

[TxLady2]

Hearing Dylan was interested in playing football really took me by surprise because he was a devoted baseball player. Someone pointed out that football players practice and play during the summer and so do baseball players so Dylan would not be able to play both sports in CS.

<modsnip>. MOO

Professional or college teams may practice in summer, but in most schools, baseball season is over before football season begins. That's the way it is here, usually. Baseball practice starts in the early spring and most of their games are over with by July. Football practice starts in Aug. Besides, a lot of baseball teams only have one or two games a week, and there is only one football game a week, so I'm sure coaches can work together to schedule practices at different times. I know of many kids who were involved in several sports in school at the same time.

 

[TxLady2]

I agree. I don't understand why the idea of a child being raped and tortured every day by some abductor is considered to be a ~positive because there's a miniscule chance they will be recovered years from now.

I am taking that to mean that the positive outcome was that they escaped with their lives, not found dead somewhere. Survival is the most positive outcome there could be. While they may have great difficulty overcoming the trauma they went through, and need professional help, I'm sure that all 3 of them are grateful that they are still alive.

 

[Oriah]

Oriah I may have missed many things you have said here but......
Why would many dogs hit in the same place?
Would that say to you someone is in that lake?

It depends entirely what type of K9's were used, what and how they were trained, how their handlers were trained and by whom....and about a zillion other factors, unfortunately such as weather, manner of death, depth of water, movement of water, etc etc.

It would be impossible and totally incorrect for me to say, 'Yes, there is likely HR scent in that lake.' What would be possible and correct for me to say would be that it remains a possibility that there is HR scent being emitted from that lake.
HTH.

 

[Emma Ems]

The three women being found and rescued from a monster who abused them emotionally, sexually and physicaly for 10 years IS a positive outcome. They have finally escaped captivity and the abuse.

What parent would rather have their child dead then recovered, rescued and returned to them????

Jaycee Dugard, Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornback all were kidnapped and abused sexually, emotionally, etc. They had the positive outcome of being rescued, as opposed to being brutally murdered. They are all doing well and thriving in spite of their ordeals. They've all started a new beginning and have taken control of their lives. That is a positive outcome. IMO, JMO, MOO.

To me this is the biggest argument FOR not giving up hope and jumping to the immediate conclusion that a child may be dead. You have already seen that I am one to not really KNOW what a better fate is for a child, but I feel that if you can find one BEFORE the abuse takes them to their mental breaking points that is a VERY good thing. This is really how we should be viewing this, IMO, lets find them before they have to suffer for this LONG and before it does IRREVERSIBLE damage.

In one of the interviews IIRC someone said that they didn't think that the girl could have been Amanda Barry because Amanda Barry is dead. It really does make me think that if someone did see DR would they think the same thing? That it couldn't be Dylan because Dylan is dead? It's these things at times, IMO, that prevents a child from being recovered sooner. Yes abuse is a horrible thing, and I do believe people can overcome it as long as they are not brought to their mental breaking points. Every person is different on how long they can mentally hold out to abuse, which is why it's so imperative to find them as soon as possible. Every child deserves for us to hold onto to hope that they are still alive and to do what we can do to help, which would be to share their fliers with all the people we possibly can and to keep an eye out of their child, rather than for us to just jump to the immediate conclusion that they are dead. We all fail them if we don't do what we can for them and sometimes our opinions keep us from doing what we should/could do to help them not have to suffer this fate, or any ill fate, that can come to them.

:moo:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I am taking that to mean that the positive outcome was that they escaped with their lives, not found dead somewhere. Survival is the most positive outcome there could be. While they may have great difficulty overcoming the trauma they went through, and need professional help, I'm sure that all 3 of them are grateful that they are still alive.

I am not saying that death is better than the recovery process. I am just talking about the actual ordeal here. It's hard for me to "hope" that Dylan is being raped and tortured every day because of the extremely miniscule chance he will be found years from now. When a missing child is found alive, I am grateful for the ending. But for current missing children...Sorry, but I honestly think it is better for the child to have been killed quickly when they first went missing, and to now be at peace with no more suffering than to be tortured for years. Very few missing children are found alive; I think that most of the ones that are kept alive are killed when they are no longer "useful".

 

[SCHMAE]

I agree and disagree with this recent line of discussion. It's hard to imagine. I guess as long as there is hope of the torment ending one day by the person being found and rescued , then you have to hope that happens. But I'm afraid there are plenty of instances where the torture continues until the missing person dies And in that case of course sooner is better than later. Hope that made sense.

 

[Crosby87]

In the article &#8220;A Boy&#8217;s Life&#8221;, there is a picture of Dylan&#8217;s friend Joe Cabellos who lives in CS and he is standing in the street holding a football. This is where he, Dylan and other friends played football so maybe Dylan did want to enroll in the football program at Lewis Palmer Middle School.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121215/NEWS01/121219687/-1/news01&source=RSS

 

[The Cheese]

In the article “A Boy’s Life”, there is a picture of Dylan’s friend JC who lives in CS and he is standing in the street holding a football. This is where he, Dylan and other friends played football so maybe Dylan did want to enroll in the football program at Lewis Palmer Middle School.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121215/NEWS01/121219687/-1/news01&source=RSS

(I deleted out the minor child's name, changing it to initials.)

From that same article, according to his mother, Dylan liked to play football with his brother Cory too.

Many of the things Dylan loves are the same as his brother, Cory, their mother said.

The two would spend a lot of time throwing the football outside and are known to stay up late playing video games. Dylan looks up to his 21-year-old brother, Elaine said.

 

[TxLady2]

I am not saying that death is better than the recovery process. I am just talking about the actual ordeal here. It's hard for me to "hope" that Dylan is being raped and tortured every day because of the extremely miniscule chance he will be found years from now. When a missing child is found alive, I am grateful for the ending. But for current missing children...Sorry, but I honestly think it is better for the child to have been killed quickly when they first went missing, and to now be at peace with no more suffering than to be tortured for years. Very few missing children are found alive; I think that most of the ones that are kept alive are killed when they are no longer "useful".

I don't discount your beliefs. I guess it comes down to how the victims feel about themselves. These 3 women obviously fought to survive, so their minds must have believed that they were worth it.
Many people have committed suicide, and they must have believed they had nothing left to live for. Yet their families and loved ones are left to grieve forever. To a parent of a missing child, I think most of us would prefer our child to be alive rather than dead, even if the child is damaged mentally to the point that they may never fully recover. But perhaps, somewhere in the back of that victim's mind, they wish they had died because living with the nightmares and the fear and doubt and feelings of hopelessness are too much to bear.
I think about the POW's who survived years in concentration camps and were tortured beyond belief every day. I don't think there is one who would not admit that they prayed for death at some point, yet most of them who did survive are thankful they lived through it. I believe it is not up to us to decide whether victims are beyond repair, and would have been better off dead.
I am not entirely disagreeing with you, just giving my own thoughts.