CO - James Holmes Trial Discussion - Begins April 27, 2015 # 5

[Maisiebelle]

All this preparation he went to doesn't show me the actions of an insane man. It was all too well thought out. And the fact that he carried on a relatively normal life while he was planning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hatfield]

The reason JH was able to do so much damage was he had clips with lots of shells in them. So once he was able to start firing, a gun will normally work fine all the way to the end of his rounds.

If you have noticed in other shootings. The only time the shooter usually has trouble is when reloading.

I am guessing that JH had brought extra clips that were already full of shells. So when he reloaded all he had to do was take out the empty clip and put in one of his full clips.

In combat, what soldiers will do sometimes is tape 2 clips together with duct tape. Upside of each other. So all they have to do is flip it over to use a brand new clip.

 

[Hoosgirl]

I totally agree that JH did not have a lot of experience with guns. And especially with some of the new guns and equipment he bought.

Each new gun I have ever bought takes a lot of time to get comfortable with that particular gun.
You cant just go to the range once or twice and get proficient with a weapon.
It takes firing it multiple days and lots of times to get very comfortable using it. Each one is different and they all have their own "feel" to it. And their safetys, actions, etc. are all different.

From the testimony and evidence I believe we learned he went to the practice range. That alone tells me he was trying out new stuff he bought.

Also here is another important thing we learned from the testimony. He was buying after-market clips and high capacity magazines (clips). These after-market clips sometiems will not sit perfectly and lock into place perfectly. He may have purchased a clip that was off just a bit where it made it hard to seat it just right.

I believe after market Drum clips are notorious for having trouble with shells jamming and the clip fitting the gun right. I could have sworn I read where he bought a drum clip too.
If he did, that would be one type of clip I could see him having trouble with.

Hatfield, your knowledge is so helpful! And you do a great job in breaking it down so it's not a foreign language to us non-gun knowledge types

 

[Dogface]

Hatfield, great questions.

For me, when I am practicing, I never fire with an empty chamber, but that's me personally. I switch when my last one is in the chamber, then switch magazines and don't have to manually load bullet.

Secondly, what could have happened, and is actually most likely, he planned to switch with a bullet in chamber, that way he didn't have to load the first bullet, but out of habit just pulled the lever, attempting to put two bullets in the chamber, thus causing the problem. Its easy to fix, would only take about 15seconds tops. But, you have to be very comfortable with your gun and understanding what is happening. A turned bullet in a magazine is highly indicative of this.

 

[Dogface]

I totally agree that JH did not have a lot of experience with guns. And especially with some of the new guns and equipment he bought.

Each new gun I have ever bought takes a lot of time to get comfortable with that particular gun.
You cant just go to the range once or twice and get proficient with a weapon.
It takes firing it multiple days and lots of times to get very comfortable using it. Each one is different and they all have their own "feel" to it. And their safetys, actions, etc. are all different.

From the testimony and evidence I believe we learned he went to the practice range. That alone tells me he was trying out new stuff he bought.

Also here is another important thing we learned from the testimony. He was buying after-market clips and high capacity magazines (clips). These after-market clips sometiems will not sit perfectly and lock into place perfectly. He may have purchased a clip that was off just a bit where it made it hard to seat it just right.

I believe after market Drum clips are notorious for having trouble with shells jamming and the clip fitting the gun right. I could have sworn I read where he bought a drum clip too.
If he did, that would be one type of clip I could see him having trouble with.

Great post. It simply could be faulty after market pieces. And you are absolutely correct about drum clips. It's better to be proficient with switching clips than have a drum clip IMO. The last week I have been playing catch up here so may have missed some things.

I would love to know if he practiced combat reloading at the range(switching clips before they are empty).

 

[Dogface]

And may I apologize for any weird wording on my behalf, I was up all night last night...thankfully my MIL has my little one today, as my brain clearly needs a rest!

 

[Maisiebelle]

We aren't allowed to own guns here the way you are allowed over there. I don't have any experience with firearms at all other than what my husband tells me (he is in the Air Force). I absolutely respect your right to have guns.

People keep saying that JH should have been checked out more before he was allowed to buy these weapons. I can't see how that would have worked if he wasn't diagnosed with a mental illness at the time. What could have been checked?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hatfield]

Hatfield, great questions.

For me, when I am practicing, I never fire with an empty chamber, but that's me personally. I switch when my last one is in the chamber, then switch magazines and don't have to manually load bullet.

Secondly, what could have happened, and is actually most likely, he planned to switch with a bullet in chamber, that way he didn't have to load the first bullet, but out of habit just pulled the lever, attempting to put two bullets in the chamber, thus causing the problem. Its easy to fix, would only take about 15seconds tops. But, you have to be very comfortable with your gun and understanding what is happening. A turned bullet in a magazine is highly indicative of this.

Re BBM
The way you describe is definitely easier, although like you had mentioned, you would want to be aware of your shell count so you know you have at least one live shell left in the chamber.

The scenario you describe sounds very possible for JH to have done that.

 

[Dogface]

Re BBM
The way you describe is definitely easier, although like you had mentioned, you would want to be aware of your shell count so you know you have at least one live shell left in the chamber.

The scenario you describe sounds very possible for JH to have done that.

I think yours of a faulty clip is just as possible! The fact is, even with his practice, he was no expert, and I am so grateful for that. Even with a reliable gun, beginners will, almost undoubtedly run into problems. I know when I first started learning with this type of gun, I would have to shoot slowly so I could keep track, and even then I would wonder if I messed up counting. Now that I have practiced so much, counting isn't even something I think about, my ears just know. ETA: left this out but I know first hand from when I first started practicing changing clips quickly, I often snapped it on and then pulled the bolt lever and thought "oh crap" because I knew I had done it wrong.

I admit when the prosecution used the word "jam" it kind of made me cringe, because a true jam is something much more complicated than just having to eject the round. But I think it's something people can relate to and understand.

 

[Hatfield]

We aren't allowed to own guns here the way you are allowed over there. I don't have any experience with firearms at all other than what my husband tells me (he is in the Air Force). I absolutely respect your right to have guns.

People keep saying that JH should have been checked out more before he was allowed to buy these weapons. I can't see how that would have worked if he wasn't diagnosed with a mental illness at the time. What could have been checked?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It really is a fun hobby when treated with the utmost respect and safety. I have been around guns all my life from hunting with my Dad to just target practicing lately as I have gotten older.

I do like to have 1 in my home for protection and since I have no children, it is a little easier for me to ensure gun safety.

As far as JH being able to buy one, there has been lots of discussion in the news about that. We have had so many shootings from people like him that ended up finding out they had mental issues of some sort.

Its a complicated topic because the critieria to limit someone like him from buying a weapon would have to be carefully planned out and I dont think our regulators want to tackle such a tough issue. Like how would they draw the line as to who is sick enough to not let them buy a weapon?

It would probably end up having to be the doctors themselves doing some sort of required reporting to a government agency that would then limit gun purchases. The problem is what would be the criteria? Like how sick would someone have to be to limit their right to purchase?

It is very complicated and I believe that is why it hasnt been tackled by our government. It opens up all kinds of tough issues that would have to be defined and regulated.
Maybe someday, they will create these kinds of rules and regulations.

 

[Hatfield]

I think yours of a faulty clip is just as possible! The fact is, even with his practice, he was no expert, and I am so grateful for that. Even with a reliable gun, beginners will, almost undoubtedly run into problems. I know when I first started learning with this type of gun, I would have to shoot slowly so I could keep track, and even then I would wonder if I messed up counting. Now that I have practiced so much, counting isn't even something I think about, my ears just know. ETA: left this out but I know first hand from when I first started practicing changing clips quickly, I often snapped it on and then pulled the bolt lever and thought "oh crap" because I knew I had done it wrong.

I admit when the prosecution used the word "jam" it kind of made me cringe, because a true jam is something much more complicated than just having to eject the round. But I think it's something people can relate to and understand.

All good points.

On my semi-auto handguns, I run into trouble sometimes with a jammed shell and it is usually my own fault. I sometimes dont work the action strongly and firmly enough. I sometimes will not pull back the action far enough and let it go too soon, and I end up with a shell jamming.

I have learned that I have to be very firm and strong when working the actions on my semi-autos.

I actually like my S+W revolver because I find the simplicity of it is so nice. So for home protection I keep my S+W handy.
For personal or automobile protection, I do have a smaller .380 semi-auto that I like.

I was brought up learning all about gun safety and so I think that is why I feel so comfortable around them.

ETA: I use the word "jam" too liberally and for me its if a shell is interrupting the action and is somewhere its not supposed to be....LOL

 

[atthelake]

Said this before, but the more I go back in listening to testimony and the juror questions... there is at least one juror who is thinking Oscar Pistorius defense is like what a juror is considering.... in that he wasn't shooting at a specific person. Therefore outside of legal murder. (pfffft, turkey shoots are ok per Oscar trial for those that stayed up and listened with Zwiebel doing b'fast for us US folks)

I think I'm going to sound like a record now :floorlaugh: but this is my second post on stating such. This juror is really stating again and again that there is no proof that a SPECIFIC person was targeted.

:moo:

 

[Maisiebelle]

It really is a fun hobby when treated with the utmost respect and safety. I have been around guns all my life from hunting with my Dad to just target practicing lately as I have gotten older.

I do like to have 1 in my home for protection and since I have no children, it is a little easier for me to ensure gun safety.

As far as JH being able to buy one, there has been lots of discussion in the news about that. We have had so many shootings from people like him that ended up finding out they had mental issues of some sort.

Its a complicated topic because the critieria to limit someone like him from buying a weapon would have to be carefully planned out and I dont think our regulators want to tackle such a tough issue. Like how would they draw the line as to who is sick enough to not let them buy a weapon?

It would probably end up having to be the doctors themselves doing some sort of required reporting to a government agency that would then limit gun purchases. The problem is what would be the criteria? Like how sick would someone have to be to limit their right to purchase?

It is very complicated and I believe that is why it hasnt been tackled by our government. It opens up all kinds of tough issues that would have to be defined and regulated.
Maybe someday, they will create these kinds of rules and regulations.

I can see that it would be a lot of paperwork if every doctor had to report to some kind of database. I do however think it's possible to do and maybe should be done.

It's easy to say these things when you aren't in charge though!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hatfield]

Said this before, but the more I go back in listening to testimony and the juror questions... there is at least one juror who is thinking Oscar Pistorius defense is like what a juror is considering.... in that he wasn't shooting at a specific person. Therefore outside of legal murder. (pfffft, turkey shoots are ok per Oscar trial for those that stayed up and listened with Zwiebel doing b'fast for us US folks)

I think I'm going to sound like a record now :floorlaugh: but this is my second post on stating such. This juror is really stating again and again that there is no proof that a SPECIFIC person was targeted.

:moo:

That is scary for that juror to think like that. As soon as JH used his shotgun, then the juror's basis is thrown out the window. Because a shotgun fires pellets and "sprays" those pellets. JH would not have to aim specifically at a person in order to hit them.

And the further away he was from his target the larger the area of "spraying". So JH may have known this and just shot in a general direction towards people in the back and he could have been hitting mutliple people with 1 shot because the pellets spray out.

That juror needs educated about shotguns and the fact JH used a shotgun too.

 

[Maisiebelle]

There is a juror who thinks that? Oh my word!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[corundogs]

OK...why would it matter if he had a specific target or not? I don't think anyone has ever claimed he went there with a specific person he wanted dead.

 

[Maisiebelle]

He didn't care who he killed according to his notebook. Everyone was worth one point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[I'mjazzed]

That is scary for that juror to think like that. As soon as JH used his shotgun, then the juror's basis is thrown out the window. Because a shotgun fires pellets and "sprays" those pellets. JH would not have to aim specifically at a person in order to hit them.

And the further away he was from his target the larger the area of "spraying". So JH may have known this and just shot in a general direction towards people in the back and he could have been hitting mutliple people with 1 shot because the pellets spray out.

That juror needs educated about shotguns and the fact JH used a shotgun too.

Well..His intention was to kill people. That's why he was there. The definition of murder.. *the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another*. His attack on the theater filled with people was premeditated and his intention was to kill those people. He's a murderer. AND..its worse IMHO..that he didn't know them...because there was absolutely no reason for it. He can't even say *Welll they abused me* because he didn't know any of them.

ETA~ And I DO think JH is insane.. One would have to be to do something like this..or...void of all feeling and compassion for other human beings BUT.. I believe he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

 

[Hatfield]

Well..His intention was to kill people. That's why he was there. The definition of murder.. *the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another*. His attack on the theater filled with people was premeditated and his intention was to kill those people. He's a murderer. AND..its worse IMHO..that he didn't know them...because there was absolutely no reason for it. He can't even say *Welll they abused me* because he didn't know any of them.

ETA~ And I DO think JH is insane.. One would have to be to do something like this..or...void of all feeling and compassion for other human beings BUT.. I believe he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.

I may have intrepreted Atthelake's post wrong.

I took it as the juror was thinking that JH may not have been aiming at a specific person and that somehow absolves him of attempted murder of the person that was hit. Which I was trying to say I disagree with the juror in that thinking because you dont have to be aiming specifically at a single person in order to kill or maim them when you use a shotgun.

Or with any gun in a crowded setting for that matter, because the expectation is you would eventually kill someone if you fired in their general direction.

 

[I'mjazzed]

I may have intrepreted Atthelake's post wrong.

I took it as the juror was thinking that JH may not have been aiming at a specific person and that somehow absolves him of attempted murder of the person that was hit. Which I was trying to say I disagree with the juror in that thinking because you dont have to be aiming specifically at a single person in order to kill or maim them when you use a shotgun.

Or with any gun in a crowded setting for that matter, because the expectation is you would eventually kill someone if you fired in their general direction.

BBM~ I may have too. lol

And I agree with you. I think its pretty cut and dry really. I'm not sure why a juror would think in such a way. His (JH) intentions were pretty clear.