CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct 2012 - #17

[Hambone1480]

IMO
I am leaning towards all 3 cases being related because of the use of the rag or towel with substance attempt in at least 2 of them. The jogger and bar incident both had the rag/towel attempted to be used. And Jessica's case was directly tied to the jogger case somehow. So, IMO, I am leaning toward all 3 cases involving some of the same people. Maybe not all present in all 3 cases.

So, I think we have at least 2 people who know each other (maybe 3), and are working in tandem to commit these crimes. I think one of them is kind of like the leader, and the other one(s) is just following instructions.

I am not ruling out gang affiliation of some kind either. But, I think these people are kind of on a mission with these crimes. In the jogger case and Jessica's case, I would not outrule that 2 people were involved throughout those crimes. In the jogger case, the other person could have remained in his vehicle or maybe was off in the woods waiting to help if the other person dragged her there. He could have been alone, but even if he was, I think he was the same one involed in all 3 cases.

The link of using the rag with substance is just too much for me to think different perps would be using the exact same method so closely timewise. 2 of the cases used the towel/rag, and Jessica's case was tied to one of them, so that makes me think all 3 are tied.

I totally agree with your findings. In the last thread, I posted basically the same things. I am now in belief that there is a group of 3 or maybe even 4 people doing this considering the number of people that looked to be in the car at the bar. The original perp may have started his "hunting" alone or with just one other person months ago, or even a couple years ago, when the first possible abduction was reported. I think now more people have joined in though. I just don't think there are "copycats" in the same city in the same time period. I also think that a group would explain why they are stepping up their activity with possibly Ridgeway and then the bar attempted abduction just a few days later. The "group" mentality would help these perps feel more invincible and possibly feel more pressure to commit these crimes. They may be having so much fun together (creepy, I know) that they want to do more.

 

[Etilema]

I always learn from Grainne's posts. Knowledgeable, insightful, and often funny. A great combo!

And inspiring!

 

[LotusPawprint]

Can I please ask if you are answer another poster that you please respond to "quote" the post so that I know what your responding to? This thread moves so quickly and it's hard to go back and try to find the post you are responding to. Thanks so much!!
Not being snarky. Hope this makes sense!

Welcome, newbies!

YES! Yes, you can lol

I agree, btw. There's enough confusion with just the facts of the case(s).

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Yep, I heard that too Ms Suzanne....her clothes were neatly folded and her socks were not included. The backpack was also neatly placed on the sidewalk. These clues make me think this killer is indeed organized.

Has anyone else heard about the condition of Jessica's clothes within the backpack?

I guess they could have been folded neatly inside out.Why I don't know That's strange.

 

[thess]

Heads up, OT--for those who were discussing Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker several pages back, I just went to grab it and noticed it's only $1.99 for Kindle edition on Amazon. Thought I'd mention it. Won't link in case it violates site rules.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Okay, I'm not super well versed in DNA but I read the link someone posted a few pages back and a few posts about what can be gleaned from DNA.

My question is if LE has DNA from Jessica's case (BP, cross, body, garbage bags, etc) and the May attempted abduction.... *if* that's what the connection is....

Can the (unknown) perp's DNA be linked to his blood relatives?

I know there's no such thing as a stupid question but I think this is the exception.

In Brianna Denison's case, her killer James Biela's girlfriend allowed authorities to take a DNA sample from their young son which confirmed that a relative (James Biela) was the man who had committed previous rapes as well as abducting and murdering Brianna.

I'm wondering on a long shot if a member of the perp's immediate family has DNA in some database, could that tie him or at least direct LE towards that individual? Does it have to be father/mother/son/daughter only? Does any of this babble make sense?

Lol..yes your babbling makes perfect sense..lol..and are valid questions imo... I would think that the answer to that question is it is all dependant upon what TYPE of DNA they have(ie. Blood, saliva, touch dna via skin cells)..with the latter, touch DNA like skin cells that remain on an object once someone touches it(ie. The backpack) would not be able to generate the thorough type results that you mention above such as linking familial DNA..

Again its strictly dependant on what type/kind of DNA that has been left behind by the perp and collected by LE.. Moo is that I believe its possible that the type collected from the backpack(if in fact there was DNA collected from the backpack) that it most likely is going to be the kind such as touch dna..

If there was available DNA such as blood, semen, etc that type of DNA imo would render a much more thorough range of results..

Jmo, tho from what little I understand/know about the issue.

 

[shefner]

I just want to give a salute to our Websleuth moderators. They have such a tough job and I'm sure no one thinks to thank them.

If you are a new member here, moderators are here to keep things clean and running smoothly. Don't get upset if they remove one of your posts, or remind you about the rules. They aren't being mean or unfair....they are just doing what their job requires. If you are on Websleuths long enough, you will eventually cross the line and have a post removed...it has happened to me, and to all of us. When you get into a big case, its easy to lose focus and post things that break the rules. The mods know that. They don't play favorites...they treat all of us the same way. They are firm but courteous and respectful.

I can't imagine how horrible it would be without our mods to help us out. I, for one, truly appreciate all they do!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Okay, I'm not super well versed in DNA but I read the link someone posted a few pages back and a few posts about what can be gleaned from DNA.

My question is if LE has DNA from Jessica's case (BP, cross, body, garbage bags, etc) and the May attempted abduction.... *if* that's what the connection is....

Can the (unknown) perp's DNA be linked to his blood relatives?

I know there's no such thing as a stupid question but I think this is the exception.

In Brianna Denison's case, her killer James Biela's girlfriend allowed authorities to take a DNA sample from their young son which confirmed that a relative (James Biela) was the man who had committed previous rapes as well as abducting and murdering Brianna.

I'm wondering on a long shot if a member of the perp's immediate family has DNA in some database, could that tie him or at least direct LE towards that individual? Does it have to be father/mother/son/daughter only? Does any of this babble make sense?

When figuring out if one sample is from a relative who donated a sample, it's expressed in percentages. Once you get past a parent or sibling (first degree relatives), it rapidly gets harder and harder to make a connection because the percentages rapidly get lower and lower.

 

[LotusPawprint]

Hi all! I am new to this and feel by the time I catch up I can't add much to the insight all you pros. I also don't want to break any rules. I just read something interesting but am not sure if Missing Persons News website is reliable.

Hi Worry, Welcome! I'm new too, as of yesterday. All I know how to do is write, quote others' posts, and post my comments. Still figuring everything else out on the site but everyone is very welcoming and mainly focused on finding justice for Jessica. Post away and I'm glad to have another new person around!

 

[kkdj]

Just a thought here. In my neighborhood we daily have deliver people from ups, fed ex and postal mail. We see the same people daily for years. I personally have walked up to each one of their delivery trucks on multiple occasion, never thinking a thing about it. If they are walking to someone else's home I might even stop to speak with them.
Now, I don't really know them but they are familiar faces. I have even known them to stop in parks in their vehicles for a break or lunch.
Could it be that someone who has frequented the neighborhood Jessica walked to school was such a familiar face or vehicle that she easily trusted to walk towards them?

 

[cfreyja23]

Okay, I'm not super well versed in DNA but I read the link someone posted a few pages back and a few posts about what can be gleaned from DNA.

My question is if LE has DNA from Jessica's case (BP, cross, body, garbage bags, etc) and the May attempted abduction.... *if* that's what the connection is....

Can the (unknown) perp's DNA be linked to his blood relatives?

I know there's no such thing as a stupid question but I think this is the exception.

In Brianna Denison's case, her killer James Biela's girlfriend allowed authorities to take a DNA sample from their young son which confirmed that a relative (James Biela) was the man who had committed previous rapes as well as abducting and murdering Brianna.

I'm wondering on a long shot if a member of the perp's immediate family has DNA in some database, could that tie him or at least direct LE towards that individual? Does it have to be father/mother/son/daughter only? Does any of this babble make sense?

Someone else mentioned Denis Rader because he was a city officer, but his case is also relevant to your question. IIRC, when he was suspected after LE linked him to the floppy disk, the FBI was able to get DNA from his daughters Pap smear (weird huh?) from her state university medical records.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Just a thought here. In my neighborhood we daily have deliver people from ups, fed ex and postal mail. We see the same people daily for years. I personally have walked up to each one of their delivery trucks on multiple occasion, never thinking a thing about it. If they are walking to someone else's home I might even stop to speak with them.
Now, I don't really know them but they are familiar faces. I have even known them to stop in parks in their vehicles for a break or lunch.
Could it be that someone who has frequented the neighborhood Jessica walked to school was such a familiar face or vehicle that she easily trusted to walk towards them?

I believe UPS and FedEx people only have a certain amount of time once they leave the truck to get back to it. I would think that their routes are predetermined and possibly monitored.

 

[scorekeeper]

Hi all! I am new to this and feel by the time I catch up I can't add much to the insight all you pros. I also don't want to break any rules. I just read something interesting but am not sure if Missing Persons News website is reliable.

I don't know if you can but their article is interesting.

 

[TnVolsFan]

Just a thought here. In my neighborhood we daily have deliver people from ups, fed ex and postal mail. We see the same people daily for years. I personally have walked up to each one of their delivery trucks on multiple occasion, never thinking a thing about it. If they are walking to someone else's home I might even stop to speak with them.
Now, I don't really know them but they are familiar faces. I have even known them to stop in parks in their vehicles for a break or lunch.
Could it be that someone who has frequented the neighborhood Jessica walked to school was such a familiar face or vehicle that she easily trusted to walk towards them?

I wondered about postal worker even-

 

[GrainneDhu]

Couple of things:

1) Thanks, NC Analyzer, for reminding me of the existence of that Gavin De Becker book (Gift of Fear). I remember hearing about it when I was younger...must have been 90s...Dominique Dunne/Nicole Simpson era? Gonna add to Amazon now. As a 'hypervigilant' person (wave plainjane), I always meant to read that. Like many of you, I had traumatic/violent experiences as a child and that sure as heck didn't help (I think I was already destined to be high-strung, but never mind).

2) "What's on the rags?". Chloroform has come up a few times, but something about the conversation earlier (medical/veterinary professional theory) made me think "what about ether?". Did some Wikipedia'ing, of course they don't use ether anymore but there are some other related inhalant general anesthetics still in use:

Halothane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sevoflurane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Something tells me you really need a breather mask on someone with a tank of this stuff to get enough of it into them to do anything, but it was still interesting.

The newer gas anesthetics like halothane work really really fast... and they wear off really really fast. So fast that it can actually be a problem and sedatives are often used to help the patient ease out of anesthesia rather than suddenly transition from unconscious to conscious.

They are also hella expensive.

Ether, on the other hand, wears off relatively slowly, is cheap and can be found in products like car starting fluid. Car starter fluid has some really toxic stuff mixed into it but someone intent on using as a rape drug probably doesn't care.

 

[absentia]

I don't know if you can but their article is interesting.

on which subject?

 

[beach]

I just want to give a salute to our Websleuth moderators. They have such a tough job and I'm sure no one thinks to thank them.

If you are a new member here, moderators are here to keep things clean and running smoothly. Don't get upset if they remove one of your posts, or remind you about the rules. They aren't being mean or unfair....they are just doing what their job requires. If you are on Websleuths long enough, you will eventually cross the line and have a post removed...it has happened to me, and to all of us. When you get into a big case, its easy to lose focus and post things that break the rules. The mods know that. They don't play favorites...they treat all of us the same way. They are firm but courteous and respectful.

I can't imagine how horrible it would be without our mods to help us out. I, for one, truly appreciate all they do!

Thanks shefner. :heartluv:

Your timing could not have been better. :blowkiss:


We're far from perfect but please know that all of us really do try our best to be fair. We realize some of the WS policies seem tight but it truly is to protect the intergrity of the information posted here. It is always in the best interest of the case and the members here.

That said, a request to all seasoned members: Please be mindful of when you were a newbie. Good gracious, I bet I read for 3 months before I ever got up the guts to post. lol I also had my own posts removed when I was learning the ropes. So anything we can all do - mods or seasoned posters - to help newbies adjust is appreciated. Specifically, things like learning how to add a link or quote a post. We all learned because someone showed us how. Be helpful and let's repay the guidance. I think many of us old-timers are so accustomed to driving in the fast lane we've forgotten what it was like when we were newbies. Let's try to be kind, patient, understanding and helpful when we can. We all need new eyes and voices to participate here! It is good for everyone.

To any newbies - if you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact any moderator or administrator for guidance. We are more than happy to help!

 

[LotusPawprint]

Lol..yes your babbling makes perfect sense..lol <snipped for space>

Again its strictly dependant on what type/kind of DNA that has been left behind by the perp and collected by LE.. Moo is that I believe its possible that the type collected from the backpack(if in fact there was DNA collected from the backpack) that it most likely is going to be the kind such as touch dna..

If there was available DNA such as blood, semen, etc that type of DNA imo would render a much more thorough range of results..

Jmo, tho from what little I understand/know about the issue.

BBM Thanks for understanding my language (babbling- lol). What you said makes sense, from the little that I know. We don't know if he wore gloves throughout. I'm gonna guess he may have sweated onto some of the evidence. Maybe cut himself. Hopefully in his rush and panic didn't have time to wipe everything down. Ughhhh I really hope semen was not involved. Not that this could be any better.

When figuring out if one sample is from a relative who donated a sample, it's expressed in percentages. Once you get past a parent or sibling (first degree relatives), it rapidly gets harder and harder to make a connection because the percentages rapidly get lower and lower.

THANKS! This is great information. Maybe there's a chance a parent or sibling already has DNA in some system. Or maybe they are completely unsuspecting in that their relative is the perp and have volunteered a DNA sample. Or will do so. I believe a few posters have said WPD has been doing DNA collections.

Someone else mentioned Denis Rader because he was a city officer, but his case is also relevant to your question. IIRC, when he was suspected after LE linked him to the floppy disk, the FBI was able to get DNA from his daughters Pap smear (weird huh?) from her state university medical records.

BBM Wow. That must've been an interesting subpoena to put together. I was actually wondering if a direct familial relative had been a victim of a crime or something and their DNA was on record (if that's even the case), would the FBI be able to obtain that DNA?

 

[SmoothOperator]

s

I don't know if you can but their article is interesting.

Do share... Im interestedin reading it too..

 

[Ransom]

Okay, I'm not super well versed in DNA but I read the link someone posted a few pages back and a few posts about what can be gleaned from DNA.

My question is if LE has DNA from Jessica's case (BP, cross, body, garbage bags, etc) and the May attempted abduction.... *if* that's what the connection is....

Can the (unknown) perp's DNA be linked to his blood relatives?

I know there's no such thing as a stupid question but I think this is the exception.

In Brianna Denison's case, her killer James Biela's girlfriend allowed authorities to take a DNA sample from their young son which confirmed that a relative (James Biela) was the man who had committed previous rapes as well as abducting and murdering Brianna.

I'm wondering on a long shot if a member of the perp's immediate family has DNA in some database, could that tie him or at least direct LE towards that individual? Does it have to be father/mother/son/daughter only? Does any of this babble make sense?

yDNA (male) does not change ..Each man gets his yDNA from his father, who got it from his father…all the way back through the generations.

Brianna's case was a perfect example of how that works.