CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #19 *ARREST*

[cluciano63]

I don’t think the media has a clue what is going on.

 

[Love Never Fails]

If the phone was taken from her (or the purse, or both) and then she was killed, it would qualify. The robbery has to happen first only because you have to be aware you’re being robbed. Or else it’s just theft. What makes it robbery is that it’s taken from you or in your presence by force or threat. So I think it’s possible that he or they did that, then killed her. If this were the case, I imagine it would be someone telling them that’s the order it happened in.

As far as the solitication goes: I wouldn’t be surprised if he asked three different people, maybe rodeo folks he knows, and that’s where it comes from. Or it really might have been just three separate attempts. We’ll have to wait to see.

Another question...
What if they were taking the child and killed her too. Robbery of s child? I know that’s kidnapping but is it a possibility?

 

[v0x]

Steelylady, are you serious or joking?

I think it was a poor choice of wording in this report:

The Bizarre Details Behind Kelsey Berreth's Fiancé's Arrest

“And after she was reported missing by her mother on Dec. 2, the police searched her apartment, where they found both of her vehicles, her toothbrush, and a possible clue in a baked good.

"Yes, we did search it," De Young said during the news conference. "Yes, there were some cinnamon rolls. They were cold."”

 

[24Brix]

We're on the same track. Something biological and most likely, wet. Good news is we'll hear what it is Friday, right?
MOO

MOO, but I think this is often swabbed DNA. A location was swabbed for contact DNA, for example, and can’t be swabbed again. So, say they found a possible weapon at the home or the dump, a knife or a fire poker, maybe, with KB’s DNA on the business end. They can swab the handle for trace DNA to indicate who had recently held it, but only once — after that it’s essentially clean. And the trace amounts recovered are too small to be split for multiple tests. The DNA needs to be replicated until there is enough for testing. So doing the analysis becomes consumptive. A drop of blood or a fragment of bone is more than enough, IIRC, to test multiple times. Also, I believe this consumptive test is not so much about cause to believe KB is no longer alive, but more a matter of placing a certain person in a position of having caused her death.

Again, just MOO. But I guess we’ll know soon enough.

 

[PommyMommy]

So would PF's attorney. lol

I read in one of the articles today that he would see it this afternoon. I'll look for it, but meanwhile, there's this one:

Prosecutors file charges against Patrick Frazee in connection with disappearance of Kelsey Berreth
Judge Linda Billings-Vela ruled that Frazee's arrest affidavit will remain unavailable to the public, but the defense will be able to look at it.

And this...
More charges, 6th Amendment debate: Patrick Frazee's court appearance recap
Prosecutors asked for a hold of seven to 10 days before Frazee could see the affidavit, but that matter, along with the motion about the evidence testing, will be discussed at a hearing this coming Friday at 1:30 p.m.

ETA: Here's the one I was looking for.
Kelsey Berreth may have been killed during robbery, Patrick Frazee facing five murder charges | Daily Mail Online
The prosecution also revealed that the arrest warrant in the case must remain sealed, noting that publication of the details could 'seriously jeopardize the physical safety of potential witnesses in this investigation.'

Frazee and his lawyers will see that warrant for the first time on Monday afternoon, and may after that decide to enter a plea in the case.

The reporting is all over the place as usual!

 

[Angela_Beckett]

So so sorry of what happened to her, and so sad for her family. I can’t even I,shine what are they going through.

She was so tiny. Just a beautiful cinnamon roll. To good for this world. Too pure

Kelsey Berreth, along with her brother, Clint Berreth, her mother, Cheryl Berreth, and her cousin, JoDee Garretson. (Courtesy JoDee Garretson)

Missing mom moved to Colorado for love of man now accused of her murder, cousin says

 

[KBB87]

Do we know for sure the rolls were not eaten at all? Maybe PF started eating one and put it back down in the pan and his DNA is on it?

Why would that matter? He already placed himself at her home that afternoon to pick up the baby.

 

[KBB87]

SABBM

Re. the bolded section : ^^^ No, I never said that.

We don't know that at all , but it's a possibility; as the charges read 'solicitation' --which means PF asked or revealed his murderous plans to someone.

We know that SF and PF were leaving the property in two vehicles the day he was arrested , and neither of them would divulge where they were going and why they were fleeing.
We know that SF walked with difficulty, whether from rage about her son being arrested or actual frailty -- that is not known.
There are no wheelchair ramps going from the house.

Of the most interest is the solicitation charge at this time.
My first guess would be an employee at PF's ranch , or one of his besties.
Someone who is afraid to talk as they could be the next 'disappearance'.
I doubt it'd be mommy dearest as she seems like more of a string puller.

Fleeing? Why do you think they were fleeing? They could have been headed to his attorney’s office or the grocery store or a restaurant. I’ve never heard that they refused to say where they were going.

 

[Ccging]

It would be great if KB kept a journal and PF did not know, maybe she started journaling about things in August or September. I’m sure she had no idea of his ultimate plan for her, but what if she documented changes in him? I just wish she had a voice in all this. Ooh, a video journal would be awesome! Can you imagine that being played at trial? Her telling his secrets?

 

[PommyMommy]

MOO, but I think this is often swabbed DNA. A location was swabbed for contact DNA, for example, and can’t be swabbed again. So, say they found a possible weapon at the home or the dump, a knife or a fire poker, maybe, with KB’s DNA on the business end. They can swab the handle for trace DNA to indicate who had recently held it, but only once — after that it’s essentially clean. And the trace amounts recovered are too small to be split for multiple tests. The DNA needs to be replicated until there is enough for testing. So doing the analysis becomes consumptive. A drop of blood or a fragment of bone is more than enough, IIRC, to test multiple times. Also, I believe this consumptive test is not so much about cause to believe KB is no longer alive, but more a matter of placing a certain person in a position of having caused her death.

Again, just MOO. But I guess we’ll know soon enough.

Yep, it's a good bet.
MOO

 

[bestill]

This blew me away. I have never heard of such a thing and that is not to say it has never has happened before.

The request by prosecution for defense not to discuss with PF.

I was not happy with that request, guilty or innocent we all have rights and to put that before a judge to me was ludicrous.

ETA: JMO

Trying to catch up on this speedy moving thread! I was thinking about that too. Just imagine being arrested, sitting in jail - no bond, and not being able to see what lead to your charges? Don't get me wrong I think he's guilty but this does concern me.

 

[KBB87]

There was an article I posted earlier in another thread that said there was a "possible clue in a baked good". Tooth? Fingernail? Chunk of hair pulled out? Blood?

I’m pretty sure the “possible clue” was just that there were cinnamon rolls left out and not put up. The reporter wouldn’t have any kind of information about a piece of evidence relating to the cinnamon rolls and no one in law enforcement is going to be giving vague hints like that.

ETA: I think the writer was just being creative with their wording. Cinnamon rolls were left out. That’s it.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Question for you PommyMommy or one of our lawyers..
Is it possible the robbery charge is nothing more than him stealing her phone to move it to Idaho to send texts? That would be a felony charge due to the high cost of a phone alone. And then you add it in connection to murder. Could the solicitation include three separate individuals he tried to persuade to commit this for him?

There is no robbery charge. There is a felony murder charge which suggests she may have died during a robbery or attempted robbery. If the robbery was completed as opposed to attempted, wouldn't there be a charge for it?

Apologies if this has been explained and I missed it.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Do we know how many people were/are involved?

Sounds like he could have put it on Craig's list at this rate! Sheesh!

 

[missy1974]

Yes, we really need the probable cause affidavit to piece it all together.
MOO

Right, so I'm not sure where this robbery thing is coming from lol Even his attorney doesn't know what the prosecution has or what they think happened.

I think it's irresponsible of the media to keep saying "attempted robbery" when I didn't hear that in the video from court this morning, and I have not read that in the 2 page document that has been shared here and elsewhere with the list of charges. There is also no robbery or attempted robbery charge listed in the 5.

 

[Trudie]

Idk how Mrs.F raised her kids. I’ve not seen any type of criminal history for Mrs. F. I don’t hold her responsible for K’s disappearance. I have no info regarding what kind of relationship Mrs. F enjoyed with K, it appears things were amicable, considering Mrs. F “reportedly” had the baby in her charge, frequently.
MOO Mrs. F is sick, heart broken, angry & confused over all of this. She, too, loses in this. She lost K, she will essentially lose P (unless he’s not guilty) to prison & she’s lost her grandchild being in her life on a daily basis.
Would Mrs. F condoned P’s murderous intentions? I highly doubt it. If nothing else, she would risk losing her son. What would she have to gain by having her granddaughter basically orphaned? Why would she assume they/she would get custody, if K died?
I’ve noticed in a few cases lately, the blame spreads from the accused to his family. It leaves me SMH.
The bottom line is PF is a grown man, despite what might have happened in his life as a kid, doesn’t excuse him. No kid is raised in a perfect environment. If their childhood is the cause of grown men murdering women, every man should get a free pass.
I’ve seen kids on TV raised in homeless shelters graduate from Harvard at the top of the class, so kids raised in the least desirable circumstances can excel & not murder.
Blaming his mom for something in his childhood is making excuses for him, imo. It’s justifying his actions.
Idk how “smart” he is but I betcha he know right from wrong. If, just if, something went wrong in his childhood, should we anticipate his brother will murder his wife, one day? Since he was raised with P? MOO
ETA: I detest my son in law. Would I want him dead? Specifically, at the hands of my daughter? Of course not. As much as I abhor him, how would I win if my daughter is imprisoned for life?


.

 

[missy1974]

Another question...
What if they were taking the child and killed her too. Robbery of s child? I know that’s kidnapping but is it a possibility?

Again, IMO, this word robbery is coming from the media, I don't think it's coming from the prosecution?

This would also be very coincidental after soliciting someone else to murder KB previously. He changed his mind and decided to just take the baby and she just happens to get murdered in the process?

 

[Trudie]

The only time a charged person will tell his lawyer what happened is if he intends to plead guilty/confess. The lawyer can’t defend him if he knows he is guilty but pleading not guilty...at least not with lies. So lawyers don’t want to know “if you did it” jmo...

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I was getting ready to call my man (atty) to get a clearer explanation than my previous post. You basically repeated that post.

MOO

 

[missy1974]

I read in one of the articles today that he would see it this afternoon. I'll look for it, but meanwhile, there's this one:

Prosecutors file charges against Patrick Frazee in connection with disappearance of Kelsey Berreth
Judge Linda Billings-Vela ruled that Frazee's arrest affidavit will remain unavailable to the public, but the defense will be able to look at it.

And this...
More charges, 6th Amendment debate: Patrick Frazee's court appearance recap
Prosecutors asked for a hold of seven to 10 days before Frazee could see the affidavit, but that matter, along with the motion about the evidence testing, will be discussed at a hearing this coming Friday at 1:30 p.m.

ETA: Here's the one I was looking for.
Kelsey Berreth may have been killed during robbery, Patrick Frazee facing five murder charges | Daily Mail Online
The prosecution also revealed that the arrest warrant in the case must remain sealed, noting that publication of the details could 'seriously jeopardize the physical safety of potential witnesses in this investigation.'

Frazee and his lawyers will see that warrant for the first time on Monday afternoon, and may after that decide to enter a plea in the case.

The reporting is all over the place as usual!

I just finished listening to the court hearing from this morning, I thought it was interesting wording from the judge, that the lawyer could not discuss the document with his lawyer, they didn't say he couldn't read it. Weird lol I thought the lawyer was going to get it today, but the hearing on Friday would decide if he could discuss it with PF.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Again, IMO, this word robbery is coming from the media, I don't think it's coming from the prosecution?

This would also be very coincidental after soliciting someone else to murder KB previously. He changed his mind and decided to just take the baby and she just happens to get murdered in the process?

The words "attempted robbery" may be coming from the media, but it's based on there being a charge of felony murder against PF. Felony murder is defined as when a victim dies in the course of another serious crime being committed. There is a list of crimes that qualify, and I think the media might just be speculating that the most likely one in this case would be attempted robbery.

ETA link to definition of Colorado felony murder charge: Felony murder rule (Colorado) - Wikipedia