CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #22 *ARREST*

[Seattle1]

Neither grandparent has parental rights. There is now an appointed GAL and the State has legal custody and CB has physical custody. I'm not going to second-guess their decision.

BBM. What on earth are you talking about? CB couldn't abduct the child and abscond with her because SF has parental rights and CB had no custodial rights whatsoever. She was granted temporary custody because the State wanted her to have temporary custody because it is in the best interest of the child. This isn't all that complicated. JMO

I agree that neither grandparent has "parental rights" -- that was the point of my prior post. It's also clearly not what you said in the post I replied to.

 

[MyBelle]

It’s more complicated than what you just said, for sure. PF was in jail. I was talking about the assertion some have made that his side of the family “kept” the Bs from seeing K even after arrest. The issue of who should have K was not settled and so it wasn’t a great idea to let someone on the other side of the family see or visit the child, given the situation. I think any legal adviser would have taken that position when talking to the Bs or the Ks. And yes, someone could have refused to relinquish K and it would have been a problem that a responding police officer would not have been able to solve. They would have shrugged and said, “This is a civil matter”. So that’s why you go to court and get custody established there first.

PF and his side of the family did prevent KB's family from seeing K and it was totally unnecessary from a legal standpoint. No need to get a court involved because courts usually want families to work it out amongst themselves. When families refuse, the court gets involved which is what happened in this case.

It is in every child's best interest to have relationships with both sides of the family whether the parents are married or not. Any parent who doesn't believe it will end up on the short-end of the custody stick which is where the Frazee family finds themselves. JMO

 

[Lhughessk]

And more often, the posters on this forum turn out to be right. Case in point, Chris Watts. I actually waited for his guilt to be proved, I was in the EXTREME minority and his guilt was proved beyond a doubt: he confessed and is exactly where he should be.

Mary Winkler raised a self-defense strategy. There is not a whit of evidence in this case that even hints of self-defense. JMO

My point was not about Winkler’s strategy or comparing it to PF’s (which would be impossible because we don’t even know what his strategy will be yet). (EDIT TO ADD: btw Winkler’s strategy was not self-defense; it was abuse. You don’t shoot someone in the back in self-defense. Her claim was she picked up the gun to get his attention, and that it went off accidentally.)My point is that sometimes things don’t go how we think they’re going to go. The more information comes out, the more accurate we can be in predicting how things will go. In this case, we haven’t had a prelim yet. She was just reported missing a month ago.

Chris Watts, we could see it coming a mile away. A woman and two kids don’t go missing from a home with the vehicle still there, unless the husband/father did it.

Posters get things wrong all the time due to their own biases. How many posters thought that in the Mollie Tibbets case, it had to be the boyfriend? They had a 70% chance of being right statistically, because it often IS the significant other. But they were wrong.

 

[Hopefullyhelpful]

I’m going to head to bed, but before I do, I’m going to leave you all with the only statement PF has made so far (that I’ve heard about) expressing his feelings about the horrible time his daughter’s mother was missing. This is a quote that appeared on CNN as relayed by his friend Tamra Freeman;

“Freeman stated Frazee told her he felt “railroaded” by police, who he claimed seemed to be focused only on him.”

Oh, the horror. How terrible. Poor, poor, Patrick, the real victim in this situation.

(Do I need a sarcasm advisory here?) MOO Night Everyone.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree that neither grandparent has "parental rights" -- that was the point of my post. It's also clearly not what you said in the post I replied to.

I edited the post you replied to.

 

[Lhughessk]

PF and his side of the family did prevent KB's family from seeing K and it was totally unnecessary from a legal standpoint. No need to get a court involved because courts usually want families to work it out amongst themselves. When families refuse, the court gets involved which is what happened in this case.

It is in every child's best interest to have relationships with both sides of the family whether the parents are married or not. Any parent who doesn't believe it will end up on the short-end of the custody stick which is where the Frazee family finds themselves. JMO

I think you’re absolutely 100% wrong. And no one is arguing that it isn’t in the child’s best interest to have relationships with both sides of the family. But the parameters NEED to be established by the court. ESPECIALLY given the circumstances of a murder and emotions running high.

 

[MassGuy]

My point was not about Winkler’s strategy or comparing it to PF’s (which would be impossible because we don’t even know what his strategy will be yet). My point is that sometimes things don’t go how we think they’re going to go. The more information comes out, the more accurate we can be in predicting how things will go. In this case, we haven’t had a prelim yet. She was just reported missing a month ago.

Chris Watts, we could see it coming a mile away. A woman and two kids don’t go missing from a home with the vehicle still there, unless the husband/father did it.

Posters get things wrong all the time due to their own biases. How many posters thought that in the Mollie Tibbets case, it had to be the boyfriend? They had a 70% chance of being right statistically, because it often IS the significant other. But they were wrong.

With Watts, I was 100% that he did it.

With Mollie Tibbetts, I was 50/50 on her knowing her attacker or not. I was 100% sure that the boyfriend had nothing to do with it though.

I’m as confident that PF did it, as I was with Watts.

I can see this one “coming a mile away.”

 

[Sincerely]

I think most cases are pretty straightforward in the end, when we often try to make it complex, but this case has some unexplained twists. I just don’t see someone traveling with KB’s phone, knowing she was deceased. That act makes them a target for LE. It makes me wonder if he lied to the person with the phone saying KB just needs to get away/disappear and gave some believable story and asked if she would help them. Maybe PF didn’t “think” it would ever be reported as a murder. Maybe PF has some information the girl doesn’t want revealed so she agreed. I’m just not understanding who would willingly agree to this, unless involved. I’m not saying she’s involved. Just throwing some theories out there. Bless KBs family, especially her baby girl and mama. ETA: IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

I think most cases are pretty straightforward in the end, when we often try to make it complex, but this case has some unexplained twists. I just don’t see someone traveling with KB’s phone, knowing she was deceased. That act makes them a target for LE. It makes me wonder if he lied to the person with the phone saying KB just needs to get away/disappear and gave some believable story and asked if she would help them. Maybe PF didn’t “think” it would ever be reported as a murder. Maybe PF has some information the girl doesn’t want revealed so she agreed. I’m just not understanding who would willingly agree to this, unless involved. I’m not saying she’s involved. Just throwing some theories out there. Bless KBs family, especially her baby girl and mama. ETA: IMO

BBM: "Ah, there's the rub!," as Shakespeare would say.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I think you’re absolutely 100% wrong. And no one is arguing that it isn’t in the child’s best interest to have relationships with both sides of the family. But the parameters NEED to be established by the court. ESPECIALLY given the circumstances of a murder and emotions running high.

Hmm... but when Kelsey was merely missing, couldn’t they have met in a public place, or something to let CB see the baby? Who had knowledge that it was ‘murder’ at that point?

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped for brevity:

There appear to be conflicting reports on the “recluse” label:

“Several of Frazee’s friends and clients told CNN that he was well known and liked in the community and was a good father to daughter Kaylee.”

https://www.fox6now.com/2019/01/03/investigators-believe-idaho-woman-disposed-phone-of-colorado-mom-allegedly-killed-by-her-fiance/

True.

We would have arrived at some conclusion if only PF opened his precious mouth and uttered something. Anything. So far, all we heard from him was some yelling at the reporters who were merely doing their job.

(After that, I should be inclined to believe the posts made by the woman alluding to his anger, but I discard them as garbage, merely for her unwillingness to spell check. Mind you, she still might be a good character witness as she described a fact, PF nearly killing a horse).

As to CNN, they interviewed two people. One woman, a generation older than Frazee, and a kid, who, judging by the comments, recently graduated from school.

Neither of these character witnesses is his peer. You want to hear from his age-related peers, to understand whether PF was accepted by them, or not.

To get to know more about PF, I'd like to hear from his classmates. I wonder why CNN could not find at least one, someone who moved away, and pay him/her.

Are all his former classmates under gag order? Can't be so, as the smartest ones, undoubtedly, have moved out. These are the people I'd like to hear from.

What would you make out of, "Patrick was Patrick"? This coming from his school.

 

[chi123]

My point was not about Winkler’s strategy or comparing it to PF’s (which would be impossible because we don’t even know what his strategy will be yet). (EDIT TO ADD: btw Winkler’s strategy was not self-defense; it was abuse. You don’t shoot someone in the back in self-defense. Her claim was she picked up the gun to get his attention, and that it went off accidentally.)My point is that sometimes things don’t go how we think they’re going to go. The more information comes out, the more accurate we can be in predicting how things will go. In this case, we haven’t had a prelim yet. She was just reported missing a month ago.

Chris Watts, we could see it coming a mile away. A woman and two kids don’t go missing from a home with the vehicle still there, unless the husband/father did it.

Posters get things wrong all the time due to their own biases. How many posters thought that in the Mollie Tibbets case, it had to be the boyfriend? They had a 70% chance of being right statistically, because it often IS the significant other. But they were wrong.

But the boyfriend in Mollies case was cleared very early on and confirmed to be out of town, the case is almost the opposite in just about every facet.

PF solicited someone to murder her THREE separate times.

The case is just as obvious as the Watts one. Respectfully I think you may be the one allowing your bias to cloud your judgement.

Things started moving very quickly once they searched her house a second time, and they made the arrest without a body. I fully expect they have a plethora of evidence and cooperation from the person he solicited to kill her. I would be stunned if this was anything other then an open and shut case with PF spending his life in prison.

 

[brooks]

Why did PF want her murdered? That is something I have not understood this whole time.

 

[Sillybilly]

@sillybilly
I would like to request a bit of rule clarification please. I recently followed the Grace Millane case and WS Admins & Mods were constantly cleaning up the threads and posting warnings about certain media sources - specifically, The Daily Mail (DM). We were told WS does not consider DM to be MSM, or a valid media source that we can discuss, refer or link to, etc. Since Grace was from the UK, there were numerous DM articles, which were not allowed here, and were repeatedly removed during thread cleanups.

However, on these Kelsey Berreth threads, as well as other cases, I see many references to DM articles. There appears to be some inconsistency with respect to whether or not DM is acceptable here on WS. Can you, or someone, please explain if DM is allowed, and if so, under what conditions? Despite that it may sometimes seem otherwise, I think it is fair to say the majority of us want to diligently abide by WS TOS/rules.
TIA

A few months ago, Tricia made the decision to allow Daily Mail as an approved MSM source. If it was being disallowed in the Grace Millane thread, it is possible that moderators of that thread were not on WS staff at the time Tricia's decision was conveyed to Mods and Admin.

Any other questions of that nature should be addressed to mods or admin through private messaging so as not to detract from the thread discussion.

 

[Lhughessk]

But the boyfriend in Mollies case was cleared very early on and confirmed to be out of town, the case is almost the opposite in just about every facet.

PF solicited someone to murder her THREE separate times.

The case is just as obvious as the Watts one. Respectfully I think you may be the one allowing your bias to cloud your judgement.

Things started moving very quickly once they searched her house a second time, and they made the arrest without a body. I fully expect they have a plethora of evidence and cooperation from the person he solicited to kill her. I would be stunned if this was anything other then an open and shut case with PF spending his life in prison.

Look, I’ve never said that I think PF is innocent. Not once. And what bias is it that you think I have? I have no vested interest here. No axe to grind. Just an outside observer, trying to cut through the things we actually know at this stage versus the things we only think we do. For instance, we don’t know that PF made three solicitations for murder. We only know that LE has brought forth charges in that regard. We haven’t seen anything to back that up yet. Nor has the case gone to a GJ for indictment. We have charges, we have sealed documents, and that’s it so far.

Is it more likely than not that he was involved? Yes, because he is the significant other and that is the statistic. But it isn’t a certainty, not yet. I think he probably is guilty but I eagerly await more info about what evidence they’ve found.

 

[Pedrosmom]

I’ve been a member of this incredible group of brilliant people but rarely post. I was following another thread speaking of the alleged nurse and her Facebook page. Wouldn’t someone under that kind of scrutiny shut it down? The fact that it is still up made me think she may not have access to the ability to shut it down. I thought this was oddly indicative of her being “held” either in a protective way or in custody. JW what others thought of this. Not sure if it was discussed.

 

[Charlot123]

My point was not about Winkler’s strategy or comparing it to PF’s (which would be impossible because we don’t even know what his strategy will be yet). (EDIT TO ADD: btw Winkler’s strategy was not self-defense; it was abuse. You don’t shoot someone in the back in self-defense. Her claim was she picked up the gun to get his attention, and that it went off accidentally.)My point is that sometimes things don’t go how we think they’re going to go. The more information comes out, the more accurate we can be in predicting how things will go. In this case, we haven’t had a prelim yet. She was just reported missing a month ago.

Chris Watts, we could see it coming a mile away. A woman and two kids don’t go missing from a home with the vehicle still there, unless the husband/father did it.

Posters get things wrong all the time due to their own biases. How many posters thought that in the Mollie Tibbets case, it had to be the boyfriend? They had a 70% chance of being right statistically, because it often IS the significant other. But they were wrong.

However, the emergence of the GF in ID who, per information in mainstream media, had KB's cellphone in her possession, significantly tips the scales.

 

[GordianKnot]

I’ve been a member of this incredible group of brilliant people but rarely post. I was following another thread speaking of the alleged nurse and her Facebook page. Wouldn’t someone under that kind of scrutiny shut it down? The fact that it is still up made me think she may not have access to the ability to shut it down. I thought this was oddly indicative of her being “held” either in a protective way or in custody. JW what others thought of this. Not sure if it was discussed.

BBM: Pedrosmom, that is certainly a possibility.

• She may in fact be in some form of police custody....OR
• She may just be inactive on FB, and hasn't been paying any attention to it....OR
• She may have decided that it's smarter to leave her FB up, as deleting her FB account would make it look like she had something to hide...OR
• She may want to be able to monitor what people are posting to her FB page.

There are so many other possible explanations. I don't think there's any way to really know, unless/until MSM comes out and reports that she's been arrested or otherwise detained. But yes, definitely, it's possible that IN is in some type of police custody, IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

I think most cases are pretty straightforward in the end, when we often try to make it complex, but this case has some unexplained twists. I just don’t see someone traveling with KB’s phone, knowing she was deceased. That act makes them a target for LE. It makes me wonder if he lied to the person with the phone saying KB just needs to get away/disappear and gave some believable story and asked if she would help them. Maybe PF didn’t “think” it would ever be reported as a murder. Maybe PF has some information the girl doesn’t want revealed so she agreed. I’m just not understanding who would willingly agree to this, unless involved. I’m not saying she’s involved. Just throwing some theories out there. Bless KBs family, especially her baby girl and mama. ETA: IMO

I would say, even not knowing that KB was deceased, the person was committing a misdemeanor.

There is something about the cellphones. Someone had serious charges mounted against him/her for internationally breaking a partner's cellphone (own gift). Apparently, if you break it during a domestic dispute, you deprive the person of the possibility to call 911.

Stealing someone's cellphone is not the same as stealing someone's gold chain or a bottle of expensive perfume. It is way more serious. It is depriving the person of the ability to call for help.

If you use stolen cellphone to send a message in the name of that person, it is at least cybercrime.

Anyone in this day and age should understand it.

If IN didn't, it speaks volumes about her.

If she knew even more and willingly took part in the crime or coverup for PF, not thinking of own family, friends and relatives, putting a man before everyone else, I don't feel sorry for her.

(I would still ask people not to harass her, or her family, because any form of harassment ends up costing us more, though).

 

[LAHOLLA]

Yeah, it’s not like police and the prosecution ever get it wrong. Since they’re always right 100% of the time, we should assume the defendant is guilty unless and until he can PROVE himself innocent. And we should hope PF is railroaded throughout this process because who cares? He must have done it or else he wouldn’t be in this position. And while we know next to nothing about his family, they must be toxic and dysfunctional. If they were a good family, this wouldn’t have happened to them. The product of a good home would never do something like this or if they do, it’s somebody else’s family, not mine. This sort of thing is never going to happen to me or mine because we were raised better. Constitution, schmonstitution. You don’t need to assert your rights if you’re a law-abiding citizen!

Right? Does that sound good? Not to me, it doesn’t. (In case anyone missed it, the above was sarcasm.). JMO

If it walks like a duck...