CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #41 *ARREST*

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I think it's more that he came from an enmeshed situation with his mother and viewed his relationship with his child through that lens. He didn't want to share.

And maybe he would've prevailed if she moved out of state but I'm not sure about that. KB's mother insists she was the primary custodial parent. And when he had her he brought his infant to farrier jobs. Sounds like he didn't always have provisions for appropriate childcare.

I get the sense that KB thought they were engaged and going to create a family. He was unable to do that because his family was with his mama. And IIRC there were whispers about his mother not liking KB or wanting her around.

But things were coming to a head. Instead of telling the truth and dealing with KB's emotions over him not wanting her, or him not wanting to leave his mama, and then dealing with sharing custody, he decided to keep the baby for himself.

The thing I've noticed with many of these family annihilator/domestic murderers is an unhealthy family of origin. Dysfunctional families. Dysfunctional relationships with parents. Deep enmeshment.

Scott Peterson. Casey Anthony. Chris Watts. Chris Coleman. Neil Entwhistle. On and on.

I think their motivations can't make sense to those who don't have such families. Or to those who aren't living disordered lives with such families.

(Caveat: I'm not trying to bash adults who live with their parents. There's lots of reasons for that. Especially in today's economy. It can be a mutually beneficial situation where a parent isn't always alone and a grandchild has family there to help with childcare, or pets, etc. But when a murder suspect seems to have a certain situation with his family, it sparks my interest. It so often seems to fit a pattern).

As a family law attorney I see how insane people get about child custody. Beyond all reason. Some just refuse to share their child. They're incapable of seeing the other parent as entitled to a relationship with THEIR child.

More importantly, they're incapable of seeing their child as entitled to a relationship with the other parent. The kid is theirs. And doesn't have needs of his or her own. The child's needs mirror the parent's, in the parents' minds. They don't see the child as an individual.

The more dysfunctional the parent, the more that is so.

I have been racking my brain, and you just made me remember what I've been trying to remember! The Drew Peterson case I believe it was. The one who had multiple wives and killed perhaps more than one of them.

In the Drew Peterson case, they could not bring up the lawyer to prove and or discuss that she had gone to a divorce lawyer. Because that lawyer had been highered. There for attorney-client privilege that lasted even after her death if I recall correctly.

But they finally were able to bring in another lawyer, because she had met him and talked about divorce in a restaurant, but she never had retained him. So prosecution was able to get that guy on stand and testify about the divorce proceedings and questions.

I think that the district attorney here, has just done a telegraph salvo across the bow as to knowing that there are legal papers, and that they have been seen, knowing that he will not be able to get them from the lawyer if PF had talked to him? But he can put on the stand the mother to talk about such?

Hope that makes sense what I'm saying.

Friday, he got it on the record that there were papers, but he will have no legal way to get them from the lawyer, and only from his mother or somebody else.?

Could that be what is going on here?

ETA typo
 
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her gun, maybe?
I don’t think he ever gave the gun back to her.

Two references to her getting the gun back were:
-PF’s convo with Berreth’s after KB went missing that was littered with untruths.
-Text from KB’s phone evening of 11/22 when she likely was no longer with us.

I’m guessing the gun never left the ranch. Too precious in his scheme.
This is what is most baffling to me as well. As violently as PF murdered KB, it’s obvious he has no qualms with committing murder. What made him so determined that KK was the one who must do the deed? Also bizarre is her making that long drive 3 times, only to chicken out. That’s a lot of time in the car to think through what you’re going to do. The “YOU HAVE A MESS TO CLEAN UP” also reveals something, I’m just unsure what that is. Finally, what was in KK’s mind that she felt responsible for the clean up? Horrendous job, why did she do it?
I think at least part of the reason he called KK about her “mess” was because he is a spoiled mama’s boy. He did make a small effort to clean with baby wipes. When he realized it was going to be more work than he anticipated, he had a tantrum. Already mad at KK for not following through. So it became her mess.
 
Hello everyone! I haven't participated since the Jodi Arias trial. I do not practice criminal law so I have not weighed in here but have appreciated the comments of others with experience who have added so much to the discussion.

I wanted to add my thoughts on the KKL plea deal from a different point of view. When you step back from the case (which is hard to do) and have to pick the ultimate final goal in this case, I think it is bigger than putting PF and KKL away, much bigger. I think when all things are weighed that the biggest goal here has to be to keep KBs sweet baby safe. If you think about it, if the prosecution cannot put PF away, he is let out and can fight for custody. Without a conviction or solid case against him, a father is likely to prevail against in laws. As a result, to protect KBs baby, a conviction is paramount. And, again, I see that as the most important goal at the end of the day. Without KKL''s testimony, the baby's future is more uncertain. With KB gone, I believe all involved would want that baby protected at all cost.

Having said that, I join in the outrage in the horrific conduct that has been shared in this preliminary hearing. In my wildest dreams, I could not imagine the evil and coverup that has occurred on so many levels. I also cannot imagine anyone wanting to hurt someone as beautiful and hardworking as KB. When I try to imagine who KB was, I look at CB. While I know her heart is broken in a million pieces and she is suffering greatly, I believe she is the epitome of grace and motherhood. She has fought for her daughter and her granddaughter with the strength of a mother lion. She is the one who fought to have people look for KB when others were not acting. She is the one who did that compelling interview (that I believe got people sharing more of what they knew) when she likely knew horrific details we did not all know. She and her family found the blood. She fought for her granddaughter to be safe against people who killed her own daughter. To me, if I were CB (and I cannot imagine), one of the hardest parts of this would have been those days she knew PF had killed her daughter, but had to watch him with that baby, not knowing if the baby was next. She could not see the baby and she could not guarantee her safety and LE was not ready/able to act at that point. That would be terrifying to me. (In addition to everything else).

For that reason, I believe CB and the rest of the family would do anything for that little girl to protect her. That is the only thing that makes me feel alright about the plea deal is that I believe it will allow that child to be the most protected at the end of all of this. With the KKL deal, we lose much of the prison time she may have served if they had enough to convict PF and KKL, but we risk PF out to fight for the baby. With her testimony, she pays a lesser price but there is significant likelihood that they will put PF away for life and he cannot regain custody. So, while we all want PF and KKL to pay for what they did, I believe that the outcome of this trial is critical for baby K and I am grateful that the deal is much more likely to offer her the greatest protection by convicting PF.

My prayers and heart are with the Berreth family. They are beautiful people and I have learned so much about faith and strength and family watching them fight for their daughter and her baby girl.

MOO
Beautifully said, I just hope we will ultimately be able to also prevent SF from access to her granddaughter. I sense great danger from that person. The F family is unhinged. jmho
 
Of course KB dumped the coffee!

My post was not necessarily about the coffee, but a continued discussion about a woman --KK, so arrogant and brazen as to approach KB's door with an insane attempt to introduce herself to her "competition" (with her Auntie K waiting in the car).

Allegedly, KK also attempted to make a "playdate" with KB/child when she was at the door, giving KB her burner phone number. I don't believe KK was received very well at the door (duh), and was said to have thrown out this burner phone in Breckenridge.

My point being -- this is just another example of KK and PF psyche where they truly believe that they are smarter than the general population.
Maybe this explains their long term relationship? so much alike. I'm still trying to grasp how you start that conversation about getting rid of your significant other - and curious who really brought it up first? KK was going through her divorce according to the Affidavit - so she knows you don't have to kill them to leave them - what prompted PF towards this course of action rather than go through legal channels for custody if this was the only issue? IMO the two (PF and KK) fed off of each other and this is why he told her in such detail of the murder scene. I think they may have enjoyed discussing it a bit JMO.
 
Great find! Do we have the other picture to do a side-by-side comparison in one post?


Dad with a phone must be having heart palpitations that his video, that he discussed that law enforcement was watching him make, is going to be used in this trial.

The more I see here, the more I agree with the original poster that the reason he was called is because of his videos that he did with his drone. Good call whoever that was! Sorry I can't remember who it was.
You're welcome! :)
 
I have been racking my brain, and you just made me remember what I've been trying to remember! Did Drew Peterson case I believe it was. The one who had multiple wives and killed perhaps more than one of them.

In the Drew Peterson case, they could not bring up the lawyer to prove and or discuss that she had gone to a divorce lawyer. Because that lawyer had been higher. There for attorney-client privilege that lasted even after her death if I recall correctly.

But they finally were able to bring in another lawyer, because she had met him and talked about divorce in a restaurant, but she never had retained him. So prosecution was able to get that guy on stand and testify about the divorce proceedings and questions.

I think that the district attorney here, has just done a telegraph salvo across the bow as to knowing that there are legal papers, and that they have been seen, knowing that he will not be able to get them from the lawyer if PF had talked to him? But he can put on the stand the mother to talk about such?

Hope that makes sense what I'm saying.

Friday, he got it on the record that there were papers, but he will have no legal way to get them from the lawyer, and only from his mother or somebody else.?

Could that be what is going on here?

@dixiegirl1035 It makes perfect sense (you recall correctly) and I've thought of that too.

ot It was pastor Neil Schori that offered most of Stacy Peterson's "testimony/voice" after her 'disappearance'. Drew disposed of her the same way as KB was I believe, (incinerated) as she has never been found. Kathleen Savio (his other ex) was drowned in the bathtub.
 
Friends of KK say that "KK was in love with PF. PF was her first love".

I believe KK romanticized her relationship with PF far more than how PF felt about it. I feel PF believed KK was DESPERATE for HIM enough to kill. PF was an arrogant man that believed he could make a desperate KK do anything for him. Not only was PF cheating on KB, he was probably cheating on KK too. I believe he was using KK because he knew she was desperate for him.

He knew KK for a long, long, long time and never wanted to commit to her yet she'd drive from Idaho to meet up with him on his terms.

I don't know what KK's involvement was but PF obviously was a cheater, as well as a coward, who believed he could solicit a desperate KK get rid of KB.

According to the phone call recorded by LE of the break up, KB WANTED TO BREAK UP WITH PF.... (I gathered this information from the tweets of reporter Sam Kraemer who tweeted it live during court yesterday, correct me if I am wrong). He was dating both women (maybe more???). It's possible KK gave him an ultimatum of breaking up with KB and he didn't want to make that choice--- he'd rather KK kill KB than break it off with her himself?????
KK was cheating on her hubby, she was jealous of KB, for coming between her cheating with a cheater. That's why she conspired with PF.
MOO
 
PF may have felt little affection for KB, and he may not have cared whether she lived or died, but I'm not convinced he killed her. Farming/ranching is a dangerous business, especially when it comes to machinery and cattle. He could have come up with a hundred fool-proof and horrific farm "accident" scenarios that would have not only gotten rid of KB, but ensured full custody of their daughter, AND garnered him tremendous sympathy (and possibly a Go Fund Me) for their loss. As an example: if they were together the night before tending to his cattle, he could have gathered them into a pen by dropping a round bale of hay, asked her to dash out there with the mineral block he forgot to add, come up behind her and clobbered her with something to knock her down, fired his gun in the air to scare them (later telling police he had fired it earlier to scare some coyotes away) and those cattle would likely have bolted around that pen in a panic until the deed was done and evidence of his foul play erased. Few of KK's statements ring true to me, except that she was in love with him.
I'm so glad you brought up the possibility of the cattle trip the
night before he murdered her. It seemed odd to me that PF
really wanted her to spend time with him, if he hated her enough to kill her, why would you want to spend a whole night til 3 or 4 am with her? I also think he had a planned 'accident' that didn't
happen. Maybe he bumbled the 'accident' or it just didn't pan out the way he planned it. Or maybe he had to doctor some cows
and needed a second person. there's a good answer somewhere
that we haven't heard yet.
 
I have been racking my brain, and you just made me remember what I've been trying to remember! Did Drew Peterson case I believe it was. The one who had multiple wives and killed perhaps more than one of them.

In the Drew Peterson case, they could not bring up the lawyer to prove and or discuss that she had gone to a divorce lawyer. Because that lawyer had been higher. There for attorney-client privilege that lasted even after her death if I recall correctly.

But they finally were able to bring in another lawyer, because she had met him and talked about divorce in a restaurant, but she never had retained him. So prosecution was able to get that guy on stand and testify about the divorce proceedings and questions.

I think that the district attorney here, has just done a telegraph salvo across the bow as to knowing that there are legal papers, and that they have been seen, knowing that he will not be able to get them from the lawyer if PF had talked to him? But he can put on the stand the mother to talk about such?

Hope that makes sense what I'm saying.

Friday, he got it on the record that there were papers, but he will have no legal way to get them from the lawyer, and only from his mother or somebody else.?

Could that be what is going on here?
The way I understand it is that the prosecution has the papers, and that they were seized from the ranch during the first search.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing
State asking if paperwork was seized from Frazee home regarding custody. Slater says they did find that on the first search of the property. It did pertain to Kaylee, Berreth and Frazee’s daughter. Slater says he believes the paperwork was dated August 2018, but the investigation showed no filings/court proceedings related to custody of Kaylee.
 
Yup, it was MG who initiated the car/truck exchange. Weird coincidence that it was at the very time that KK also need to borrow a car.

Yeah, * weird coincidence* *cough cough* that she was probably asked weeks ahead to exchange cars. And she conveniently had somebody else's car to drive versus hers. Just like she did not drive her car to Colorado previously.

The timing is indeed on uncanny. The defense is going to rip her apart.
 
Thank you for sharing your point of view. I, for one, have had tunnel vision concentrating on PF and KKL. You are absolutely correct, what could be more important than the safety of this sweet innocent child? It is unfortunate that someone SO involved in this conspiracy (KKL) will not get charged to the fullest extent of the law, but this young child will be safe--THAT is what is most important and I am sure her beautiful mother would agree.

MOO
All this is true. I think we all are concerned about the little one.

But the perp should go to jail for one reason only - because of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is what the case is about, imo.

jmo
 
I'm thinking a lot of the blood in the bathroom is from him taking a shower and changing. And then when she went to clean up, she wiped it down and therefore it got wiped into cracks in the hinges and other places. I think the murder was indeed done in the living room which is near the kitchen, but the bathroom I think was all her cleaning up and spreading the blood around into cracks and crevices which they found. Moo
I would guess that he drug or carried KB to the bathroom. He probably did not wrap her in anything. The brutality of KB’s death, may have caused her to bleed out. There would have been blood transfer on anything kk or PF touched too. It would account for kk’s description.
 
Hello everyone! I haven't participated since the Jodi Arias trial. I do not practice criminal law so I have not weighed in here but have appreciated the comments of others with experience who have added so much to the discussion.

I wanted to add my thoughts on the KKL plea deal from a different point of view. When you step back from the case (which is hard to do) and have to pick the ultimate final goal in this case, I think it is bigger than putting PF and KKL away, much bigger. I think when all things are weighed that the biggest goal here has to be to keep KBs sweet baby safe. If you think about it, if the prosecution cannot put PF away, he is let out and can fight for custody. Without a conviction or solid case against him, a father is likely to prevail against in laws. As a result, to protect KBs baby, a conviction is paramount. And, again, I see that as the most important goal at the end of the day. Without KKL''s testimony, the baby's future is more uncertain. With KB gone, I believe all involved would want that baby protected at all cost.

Having said that, I join in the outrage in the horrific conduct that has been shared in this preliminary hearing. In my wildest dreams, I could not imagine the evil and coverup that has occurred on so many levels. I also cannot imagine anyone wanting to hurt someone as beautiful and hardworking as KB. When I try to imagine who KB was, I look at CB. While I know her heart is broken in a million pieces and she is suffering greatly, I believe she is the epitome of grace and motherhood. She has fought for her daughter and her granddaughter with the strength of a mother lion. She is the one who fought to have people look for KB when others were not acting. She is the one who did that compelling interview (that I believe got people sharing more of what they knew) when she likely knew horrific details we did not all know. She and her family found the blood. She fought for her granddaughter to be safe against people who killed her own daughter. To me, if I were CB (and I cannot imagine), one of the hardest parts of this would have been those days she knew PF had killed her daughter, but had to watch him with that baby, not knowing if the baby was next. She could not see the baby and she could not guarantee her safety and LE was not ready/able to act at that point. That would be terrifying to me. (In addition to everything else).

For that reason, I believe CB and the rest of the family would do anything for that little girl to protect her. That is the only thing that makes me feel alright about the plea deal is that I believe it will allow that child to be the most protected at the end of all of this. With the KKL deal, we lose much of the prison time she may have served if they had enough to convict PF and KKL, but we risk PF out to fight for the baby. With her testimony, she pays a lesser price but there is significant likelihood that they will put PF away for life and he cannot regain custody. So, while we all want PF and KKL to pay for what they did, I believe that the outcome of this trial is critical for baby K and I am grateful that the deal is much more likely to offer her the greatest protection by convicting PF.

My prayers and heart are with the Berreth family. They are beautiful people and I have learned so much about faith and strength and family watching them fight for their daughter and her baby girl.

MOO
MP's suspect is still free and raising their children - I agree PF would not have been arrested without KK- and I don't think SF would ever allow CB to see the baby IMO In MP's disappearance - they have cell phone pings, video, and still not enough to arrest him. This same scenario could have played out for the killer of KB IMO.
Family Hopes For Answers After 7 Years of Mother Being Missing
 
Yes, tractor's have keys. And, I'd guess the tractor was rigged to lift hay bales? :)
Lots of people (like me) leave the keys to our tractor in the ignition. We just don't worry about the horses or cows starting
the tractor and driving it away. And yes, many farm tractors
have a bucket on the front which can lift hay bales, round bales
and stack them pretty high in the barn.
 
I think that the district attorney here, has just done a telegraph salvo across the bow as to knowing that there are legal papers, and that they have been seen, knowing that he will not be able to get them from the lawyer if PF had talked to him? But he can put on the stand the mother to talk about such?

i think the papers were seen during the search warrant visit. it occurs to me that those documents might have been considered evidence and thus taken. it also seems probable to me that during the discovery phase the defense would need to share them with the prosecution if they did not already have them. just my opinions.
 
Finally! I believe MG had a concealed weapon in her vehicle, and just coincidence that KK borrowed her vehicle on the weekend a murder went down in Colorado. I believe MG's "my gun was tampered with" is nothing more than her account to direct focus away from herself. Why? Because MG is yet another person that remained silent after KK confided in her that PF had solicited her to murder KB. Yup, MG knew in October. MOO

ETA: the MG bullet is moving straight to red tshirt or #737!

She knew in October? Are you confusing MG with MS.

Below are screenshots from the arrest affidavit showing MG information. I don't see anything that leads me to believe she knew in October, where did that come from?
 

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The way I understand it is that the prosecution has the papers, and that they were seized from the ranch during the first search.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing
State asking if paperwork was seized from Frazee home regarding custody. Slater says they did find that on the first search of the property. It did pertain to Kaylee, Berreth and Frazee’s daughter. Slater says he believes the paperwork was dated August 2018, but the investigation showed no filings/court proceedings related to custody of Kaylee.
Thank you I was looking for a description of the "paperwork" to see if they were pleadings but I guess we won't know until trial. I did run across that he signed a medical paper dated Dec 12 IIRC listing 5 people who could care for the baby medically and KB was not on the list. Why not? because he knew she was dead.. JMO
source is the Affidavit posted upthread
 
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