CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #46*ARREST*

[ilovechili]

PF could be paying for it.
He sold 96 nead of registered black angus and hereford cattle in January. Several threads back, someone pointed out that his credit score wouldn't merit speculation that he financied those cattle at the bank.
He had no choice in getting a lawyer, as Colorado does not provide legal assistance for civil cases. He hired an excellent one, but that is certainly his choice to make. IMO

I have seen it before but it is a bit maddening that on one hand they can claim not being able to afford an attorney so they are appointed a public defender but on the other hand he then sells assets to pay for the other attorney in another suit. If he was destitute what would he be doing to defend the civil suit?

Like I said, I have seen it happen but it sure does not thrill much of the public nor the victim's families. In the criminal case, he has a right to be defended. In the civil case, any of us would be up a creek paying for a defense attorney depending on assets. His assets should almost have to be gone before he is eligible for a public defender but I believe it is not the way it works is it?

 

[ilovechili]

I am wondering if the consumptive testing is to check for backblow? blood and KB DNA in the barrel of either or both recovered guns. Maybe we will find out tomorrow. Has anyone asked Sam Kraemer if the media is allowed in the hearing tomorrow to tweet?

Interesting and it would make sense... From which gun I wonder... Or both?

 

[Dave F.]

I knew she was paying for the one in the custody suit but not that she was paying for the one in the wrongful death suit. Depending on the length of proceedings and more, custody can be a vicious battle if she never gives up, PF's actions may very well destroy his mother financially before things are over. Another victim? I guess that depends. Speculation only but attorney fees add up quickly.

SF has her own attorney in the custody matter, to advise her on her rights and wishes as a grandmother. No news report has ever mentioned an attorney for PF in that matter, and her attorney cannot represent both; as they are not joint interests.
I see no indication that SF is actually fighting the current situation. She is making her views on the long-term custody of the child known to the court, as is her right and duty as a grandmother. I don't anticipate any changes in the status of the custody matter in the near future.
Flipping the page over to the civil suit for a moment, the child has not been added to the lawsuit at this time. The Amended Complaint that was filed stated Negligence as the grounds for the suit, which the original did not. The issue of whether the B's have legal standing to sue has not yet been addressed by the court, but certainly will be. IMO

 

[ab01]

Yup. Apparently it must be very difficult to pull off a murder, and get away with it. Good thing.

Especially a familiar murder, they have the spotlight on those people immediately . Luckily very few can put on an oscar winning performance.....MOO

Of course some seem to think that KK did....I personally don't believe LE bought any of her lies for even one second

 

[Dave F.]

I have seen it before but it is a bit maddening that on one hand they can claim not being able to afford an attorney so they are appointed a public defender but on the other hand he then sells assets to pay for the other attorney in another suit. If he was destitute what would he be doing to defend the civil suit?

Like I said, I have seen it happen but it sure does not thrill much of the public nor the victim's families. In the criminal case, he has a right to be defended. In the civil case, any of us would be up a creek paying for a defense attorney depending on assets. His assets should almost have to be gone before he is eligible for a public defender but I believe it is not the way it works is it?

I think the interests of the people of Colorado will be best served by PF being represented by the Office of the Public Defender. They have the most experience, unlimited reseources, and are highly respected in the profession. Not much chance of PF being able to claim inadequate defense on appeal. IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Yep. It's one thing that distinguishes him from CW.

You know you're talking about an evil monster when the most you can say for PF is,
"At least he didn't beat the baby to death with a baseball bat, too."

JMO.

Yes, but for me that doesn't count since it's the baby he wanted all to himself in the first place. Imo

 

[ajaylee]

PF could be paying for it.
He sold 96 nead of registered black angus and hereford cattle in January. Several threads back, someone pointed out that his credit score wouldn't merit speculation that he financied those cattle at the bank.
He had no choice in getting a lawyer, as Colorado does not provide legal assistance for civil cases. He hired an excellent one, but that is certainly his choice to make. IMO

My post was unclear. I'm assuming at this point that it doesn't matter much who is technically paying the lawyers in the two civil suits. It's money that's not available to pay for an attorney for PF's criminal defense.

Is that because PF and SF are completely confident in the skills of the public defender (and I am in no way impugning those skills!)? Or because there is a limit to the money available, particularly since it looks like PF might not be bringing in anything in the near future?

When SF filed suit to get custody of Baby K, I wondered at the time if she thought it would be a mere uncontested formality or if there would be a serious challenge. I have no idea how costly something like this can be.

It doesn't seem uncommon that in criminal cases like this, if the defendant has the resources, s/he gets a private attorney. PF didn't. I wondered if that was because he arrogantly assumed he was so smart there was no way they could ever convict him, or if it was because he and/or SF decided that they'd rather spend money fighting for Baby K than getting PF a private attorney.

 

[ajaylee]

It makes sense because who else as you say would pay for it? Ma also has an attorney to advise her in the criminal case as it referred to her attorney advising her to take the 5th. It could be I guess an area attorney she knows and a general one that is covering the civil suit as well. I have not been to the Colorado court site, does it list the attorneys in the cases? I wonder if it is someone high powered or local. Either way, it is going to cause her some expense no doubt.

I also wondered how KK paid for such a high powered attorney. However, who knows what her situation is, hard to say. I don't even think we know what kind or age of vehicle she drives lmao, she is always in someone else's--friend's, aunt's and hubby's to get a phone...

Funny you should say that. Among the many little details that bug me, I wondered why KK had her ex-husband take her to buy a new phone after she lost her old one.

??? Surely they each have their own vehicles. Was her car in the shop? Getting detailed, perhaps?

 

[Kapua]

I think the overall point is it was another stupid move on his part as was both of her vehicles being home if he thought anyone would believe that.

What a complete moron! PF couldn't decide which type of 'missing' scenario he wanted to stage, so he combined them. Maybe she went to visit family (without her car, suitcase, clothes and toiletries), maybe she ran off with her new mystery boyfriend (again without her suitcase, clothes, and toiletries, and no mystery boyfriend is similarly missing), or maybe she committed suicide (took her purse, keys, and gun, somehow made it to Idaho without her car, and was last heard from on Nov. 25). I keep thinking "how did he expect to get away with this?" What amazes me even more is that KKL was willing to drive 800 miles to implicate herself and yet, did not help him construct a believable alibi. They are two evil, nasty, idiotic peas in a pod. MOO

 

[SandyQLS]

I don't have hard evidence, but who else could possibly be paying for it? Someone challenged the wrongful death suit because KB's parents didn't have standing to file, so it got amended to file on Baby K's behalf, IIRC.

I don't think that is correct. A reading of the amended complaint only refers again to CB and DB, not baby K. The state of Colorado has legal custody of baby K, not the B's. No ruling yet on the motion challenging the validity of CB and DB to file the wrongful death case. iirc

 

[ilovechili]

Might be OT but hope under the circumstances it is okay--the two girls missing in California have just been found!

 

[ab01]

Yes, but for me that doesn't count since it's the baby he wanted all to himself in the first place. Imo

Exactly it wan't out of love for her IMO. He thought of baby k as his own personal property. Thank god that baby is in a loving home IMO

 

[lindaromas]

That's what I thought, so maybe they didn't know she was involved until after they looked at his phone.

Seems to me in these types of cases the person's phone they take should be held in custody so they can't contact others involved.

 

[SandyQLS]

The affidavit says that KKL's cell phone last connected with the Cripple Creek tower (while she was in the vicinity of Nash ranch) at 6:14 pm on the 24th. Next, KKL's phone pinged "on the Colorado - Utah border" at 4:13 am on the 25th and just moments later KB's pinged. I believe Investigator Slater testified that KKL got more than 2 hours, but a little less than three hours of sleep between Florissant and there. It's a 5.5 hour drive. The total of 8.5 hours driving and napping time subtracted from the 4:13 ping time pinpoints KKL leaving PF's ranch no later than 7:45 pm on the 25th. (As a check, the additional drive from the Colorado - Utah border to Hansen, Idaho would have put KKL arriving at 10:30 am on the 25th, which is exactly the time Slater said she did.)
Assuming that it took PF and KKL a half hour to drive back to the ranch from the Nash ranch barn, we can asssume that PF pulled the tote out of his truck around 6:45 pm. With KKL departing at 7:45 pm, it only leaves one hour for her to help start the fire and watch it burn.
I'm of the opinion that after an only an hour, KKL had little opportunity to actually see much. I suspect that PF later notified her by phone when it was done, and that her only knowledge of "scooping it up" was from his description.
I could certainly be wrong. IMO

@Dave F. quoting your excellent drive time analysis from page 51 of this thread.

I have been searching for historical weather data for the bonfire date 11/22. I have no link for winds 25mph and gusts up to 46mph. I tried accuweather but they used the AFAcademy below the mountains with mild winds in the 5-8mph range.

You are really good with that sort of data - do you know what the winds were like up in WP-Florissant on the night of the bonfire? Thanks in advance if you know.

 

[lindaromas]

I have thought about this a lot. I have mentioned before that I work in white collar crime and it interfaces often with nurses/physicians, both on the good and bad side of things. I have found that crime covers all walk of life from the educated to the non-educated. Criminologists would like for us to believe the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be an offender and especially a repeat offender. In this case, the nursing was a means to an end. Whereas, for many nurses, their calling is nursing. Whether or not educated, there is very little human understanding in this case. We have to see the humanity in the officers and agents that faced all involved in this plot of evil and brought them to justice. Think of the humanity of the humans still searching for KB to bury.

I'm thinking not much bible study happened in PK or KK's lifetime. So sad.

 

[NWLady]

The baby is tiny inside her carrier. Even in the video of KB at Safeway, the carrier is seen, but not the baby.

We don't know what time PF went through the credit union ATM drive-thru, but I took the following comment to mean the baby was with PF, not that the carrier was empty:

Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
Adams says he also recovered video of Frazee at the drive through of Ent Credit Union. He says he couldn’t see the baby in the truck, but did see a baby carrier. @KOAA

AA item#11: "Between 1254-1317 hours also on November 22, 2018, Frazee is captured on surveillance footage at a Walmart in Woodland Park, Colorado with a baby carrier with a similar blanket as seen in the Safeway footage. Although (babyK) cannot be clearly seen in the footage, it is highly likely she was in the baby carrier. ...since Frazee appeared at Walmart with (baby K)... "



The neighbor's camera is magical. It only shows the head & shoulders of a tall man, except when it shows 5'3" KB, the baby and the flowers with a tall man.

Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
State gives him another still of that neighbor’s surveillance. He says it shows Berreth, Kaylee, Frazee & her flowers out front of Kelsey’s door around 1 p.m. @KOAA# KelseyBerreth #Patrick

I don't know what time PF went to the credit union so I am ignoring it for now as irrelevant to the question I am asking: Why doesn't the neighbor camera show PF taking baby K back inside KB's townhome at 1:24 after the Walmart trip since KK says the baby was in the bavk bedroom during the murder?

Just a guess here, but it's possible there may be more surveillance that has yet to be revealed by prosecutors, but will be brought forward at trial. JMO

 

[lindaromas]

Am I mistaken, I thought SF was off limits as far as sleuthers saying she was involved?

She's being called as a witness to something, so yes, she's involved in the case. IMO

 

[ilovechili]

I think the interests of the people of Colorado will be best served by PF being represented by the Office of the Public Defender. They have the most experience, unlimited reseources, and are highly respected in the profession. Not much chance of PF being able to claim inadequate defense on appeal. IMO

I do not doubt that. No knock meant against public defenders whatsoever. I also in no way think a person should not be eligible for one and all deserve a defense.

It was not really my point, just an observation on the way it works to qualify. It also may differ in various states, I know the pay the public defender receives differs by state.

 

[lindaromas]

@Dave F. quoting your excellent drive time analysis from page 51 of this thread.

I have been searching for historical weather data for the bonfire date 11/22. I have no link for winds 25mph and gusts up to 46mph. I tried accuweather but they used the AFAcademy below the mountains with mild winds in the 5-8mph range.

You are really good with that sort of data - do you know what the winds were like up in WP-Florissant on the night of the bonfire? Thanks in advance if you know.

If I remember correctly the bonfire wasn't until 11/24, you can do a search for historical weather for certain areas. If I had time I would, sorry.

 

[ilovechili]

Funny you should say that. Among the many little details that bug me, I wondered why KK had her ex-husband take her to buy a new phone after she lost her old one.

??? Surely they each have their own vehicles. Was her car in the shop? Getting detailed, perhaps?

His phone plan, his money, buy her a new phone? Kept him around for a reason?

Or nothing related to this case has she had her own vehicle on video yet to my knowledge so in keeping with the same theme, she has ex hubby take her so she can't be found on tape?

Everyone though did remark on her high powered attorney more than once so there had to be some $$ to retain same. Unless the attorney took it on pro bono for various reasons...

I assume she has her own vehicle, he** she probably has her own gun. She just prefers to use other people's for some reason lol